<Oksana>
Ok, waiting till Friday, then asking Gerry about them. He said that they get 15 pieces from Nokia, and thus send them to me. And the last (16th) one will arrive separately, next week.
<Oksana>
Letter: Jan 9: on Monday we get 15 pieces from Nokia and will send them today to you. We hope that we get the last one from Nokia in the next week.
<stevend>
It uses a 500 kHz antenna to detect the radio emmisions of the discharge and then attempts to estimate the distance.
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<Oksana>
Ok, do we have a 500kHz antenna [Morse code maritime communication and amateur radio band]? It would be additional thing to attach. What size would the antenna be? ((Supply voltage range 2.4V to 5.5V)) A hungry critter, but then, it will be shut-down most of the time?
<Openbot>
Stevend: it been already discussed in great lengths and is considerd not fesiable
<stevend>
Okay.
<Openbot>
Oksana: doc is crazy he wont consider
<Oksana>
Not crazy.
<stevend>
Just thought I would mention it, though you guys probably have looked through tons of possible sensors already.
<Oksana>
Just practical. You cannot fit everything into one board.
<Openbot>
Ok wrong wording
<Oksana>
stevend: It is an awesome chip... to attach to hackerbus.
<stevend>
Indeed. Hopefully someone will make an "I want" board for the hackerbus once the Neo900 comes out.
<Openbot>
Stevend its ok and thats one of the purposes of the channel ;) morning
<stevend>
Goodmorning, though it is actually evening here.
<Oksana>
Pins of the chip: Ground, Antenna, Power (2.4V), Interrupt, I2C (or SPI)
<Oksana>
Oh, and be extra careful! The chip works only in humidity between 5% and 85%, so both heat of Sahara desert and week-long rain are dangerous to it.
<stevend>
The antennae I have seen on boards for this are several uH ferrite rod antennae. I did wonder though if the NFC antenna could be adapted using a different capacitor, but I have no idea if it would be possible to switch that.
<stevend>
Oksana: "works" as in operates correctly, or "works" as in doesn't get permanently damaged?
<stevend>
Also, how much lightning do you get in the Sahara desert?
<Openbot>
Oksana i previously discused and he told its a battrey hog also my suggesion was a disaster on privacy though i still would like built in non removeable always on by design off the band lisening radio.
<Oksana>
Stresses beyond those listed in Table 2 may cause permanent damage to the device: Humidity non-condensing 5 85 %
<stevend>
That's crazy. Its an IC in plastic with metal pins, why would non-condensing humidity damage it?
<stevend>
I could see that really high humidity might damage say, the humidity or pressure sensors, but not an IC.
<stevend>
(because the sensors have some form of exposed sensor surface)
<Oksana>
((60μA)) Actually, it may be possible to leave it in listening mode, all day long. Not sure.
<Openbot>
Oksana find me something like that i wana know
<stevend>
Openbot: What is the privacy consideration here? That it could operate the antenna and query the I2C/SPI bus?
<Oksana>
Actually, if you have a good antenna, your radio can work on its own power, without external power supply. But I am not sure that digital chips can do that; maybe, only old-style analogue radio is capable of that.
<stevend>
So the difference between this and GSM/Wifi/Btooth/FM/NFC is that those each have an isolated bus?
<Openbot>
Stevend : device can be located also wiped and more
<Oksana>
Openbot: These uses are probably the reason DocScrutinizer called this radio a disaster. How can you be sure that somebody will not misuse it?
<stevend>
Openbot: Which device? I don't quite understand.
<Oksana>
Openbot offered to have always-on radio-listener within Neo900 so that Neo900's owner could find-locate, wipe, reboot, et cetera the device.
<stevend>
Oooh, okay. I thought he was referring to the lightning detector.
<Openbot>
I need a custom kill switch wich dosent suck someones c***k
<stevend>
I am curious: could a hybrid speaker/antenna or motor/antenna be made without sucking horribly? You could then share inductors to some degree...
<stevend>
Though I guess the inductance would be an order of magnitude too high for this.
<stevend>
two* orders I mean.
<Openbot>
Oksana can a spare anteena be put on neo for hackerbus to reduce baggage for comms hackerbus stuff
<Oksana>
About humidity: they mention some exposed heat slug of the lightning sensor, for some reason.
<Openbot>
C ya later
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<stevend>
Oksana: Where do you see that?
<Oksana>
datasheet->Package Drawings and Markings
<Oksana>
Openbot: if you need to speak a lot between device and something external (robot?), maybe, Bluetooth would be better choice than hackerbus antenna?
<stevend>
I'm not sure what they are talking about. Do they mean the thermal pad on the bottom of the IC?
<Oksana>
Maybe.
<Oksana>
Is it supposed to become rusty if exposed to humidity?
<stevend>
The IC itself isn't really a sensor.
<Oksana>
It is an antenna, I understand.
<stevend>
The antenna is external.
<Oksana>
Ok, an analyser chip for antenna.
<stevend>
Perhaps those numbers were just out of their humidity range for their testing.
<stevend>
So they said they were the "maximum"
<stevend>
IDK, it doesn't make sense to me.
<Oksana>
It should be possible to make it waterproof, but it's entirely possible that they did not want to get rust on their metal parts. Overheated chip+humidity = rust.
<stevend>
Really high humidity might reduce its lifespan, but I don't see how it would be something to worry about for brief exposure.
<stevend>
Wikipedia says: "Many electronic devices have humidity specifications, for example, 5% to 95%. At the top end of the range, moisture may increase the conductivity of permeable insulators leading to malfunction. Too low humidity may make materials brittle. A particular danger to electronic items, regardless of the stated operating humidity range, is condensation."
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<stevend>
I think that there is no more worry for this chip than anything else in a typical circuit regarding humidity.
<wpwrak>
makes me wonder why nobody makes PCBs with Al instead of Cu. there ought to be some process that makes Al sufficiently solderable ...
<stevend>
wpwrak: AFAIK, Al forms no "nice" intermettalics with lead or tin.
<wpwrak>
the circuit would still malfunction if you dunk it into water, but at least there would be not much of a corrosion risk. (well, if the chips use non-corrosive metals, too)
<stevend>
Also, aluminum corrodes very quickly once you strip a bit of the oxides off.
<Oksana>
Cu is a good conductor. Better than Al, I think.
<stevend>
IIRC, this was one of the problems with using aluminum wiring in houses. When it was bent it would corrode at the bend point.
<stevend>
Well, that and it just doesn't take bends well.
<wpwrak>
stevend: there's the 6262 alloy with quite a lot of lead
<wpwrak>
but yes, tin doesn't seem to like Al
<stevend>
You could always dunk your board into something to plate a very thin layer of nickel over everything...
<wpwrak>
(bend) hmm, so keep it dry and well-ventilated for a while :)
<stevend>
And then you could plate chromium over that and it would be very shiney!
<stevend>
AFK for a bit.
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wpwrak>
(al + tin) ah no, there's a whole series of cast alloys with tin.
<DocScrutinizer05>
((<Oksana> Letter: Jan 9: )) this was Friday. We got Sunday now. No letter sent on Friday afternoon arrives til Sunday
<DocScrutinizer05>
((lightning sensor)) we discussed that a few weeks ago, see chanlogs
<DocScrutinizer05>
((I did wonder though if the NFC antenna could be adapted)) possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
((Stresses beyond those listed in Table 2 may cause permanent damage to the device: Humidity non-condensing 5 85 %)) W*T*F??
<DocScrutinizer05>
((hybrid speaker/antenna)) interesting but not available
<DocScrutinizer05>
((When it was bent it would corrode at the bend point.)) stevend, indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
and another main downside of Al: non-elastic
<DocScrutinizer05>
Al is da biatch
<DocScrutinizer05>
in WW-II they used Al in home electrics, they forbid that pretty soon after all Cu was needed for bomb shells
<DocScrutinizer05>
Al is one of the worst metals for simple electrics (not waver level). Dunno, prolly even worse than Fe
<wpwrak>
let's stick with gold then :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, gold is great
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a reason why they use gold for bonding
<DocScrutinizer05>
and every top notch PCB is completely gold plated
<DocScrutinizer05>
70 miu hard gold, best you can get
<Oksana>
((Letter: Jan 9:)) Especially if they actually send the package on Monday... Ok. Waiting till Friday. ((Stresses ... Humidity non-condensing 5% 85 %)) Lightning chip.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yay, wpwrak went offline again
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: ((lightning chip)) I know. Nevertheless WTF??!
<Oksana>
Heat slug? Or probably, humidity-sensitive plastics-insulators.
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's prollly nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
often a spec detail skips from "recommended" to "ABS MAX" and nobody notices
<DocScrutinizer05>
usual datasheet madness
<Oksana>
If I figure out how to attach the chip to the hackerbus... If I get lots of such chips... I could probably put one above a boiling teapot and look at the damage. They have good temperature range (-65 to 150 Celsius for storage).
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry peeps, I'm ill, need to take more out time
<Oksana>
Get well!
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks
<DocScrutinizer05>
((figure out)) just ask
<DocScrutinizer05>
this sort of advice is for free for all of our customers. For *sure* for you. You almost could order your own edition already
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: could we publish a hackerbus spec that's just describing the pins, the physical connector position and formfactor, and a fewcircuit details like 1.5A polyfuse on Vbatt_unswitched?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course the detail of level-shifters
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<DocScrutinizer05>
duh, oksana gone
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<Oksana>
Freenode connection reset.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: wb!
<Oksana>
Thanks :-) Just getting angry because I think the SIM holder is different from what was on the picture.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you at least know our daily horrorshow
<DocScrutinizer05>
you ordered 1? 10? 20? Guess how it feels to order 1000
<Oksana>
Need to double-check. It may be compatible (after all, who needs two extra holes where no pins are located), but that's the principle: sell what you have shown, not something similar.
<Oksana>
I ordered 2, this time ;-) With 1000.... I hope seller cannot just "return money" and fade away.
<DocScrutinizer05>
order a 1000 cam switches which are not labeled as being the ones you need
<DocScrutinizer05>
since they seem to be the ones you used before, but actually not meant for this particular mounting situation
<Oksana>
Mis-labeled on outside, or actually different on the inside from what should have been?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the question, The 2000EUR question
<stevend>
Back.
<DocScrutinizer05>
it seems Panasonic sold same component with different packaging under two different part numbers
<Oksana>
Ask Panasonic?
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha
<DocScrutinizer05>
Panasonic doesn't talk to plebs like us
<Oksana>
And press the seller to either prove decisively that it _is_ the same part, or to send the "proper" parts.
<DocScrutinizer05>
"how much? 1000 k? OK"
<Oksana>
Is seller high-volume enough that he could ask Panasonic?
<DocScrutinizer05>
digijey iirc
<DocScrutinizer05>
but anyway, we got them suckers, and they seem to fit
<DocScrutinizer05>
last ones available
<stevend>
wpwrak: (al + tin) What is necessary for a good solder connection is not just that the two metals will form alloys, but that they will readily do so. Copper readily forms alloys with tin or lead with raised temperature, and the intermetallic interface make the two stick together. Aluminium is protected by an oxide layer which inhibits intermetalic formation.
<DocScrutinizer05>
HAH, found that tweezers I thoght I lost
<DocScrutinizer05>
stevend: exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it's non-elastic
<stevend>
Metal-metal chemistry is pretty interesting. Did you know that there are certain metals that produce a lot of heat when alloying together? You can actually twist strands of these metals together and then light one end on fire. The metals will seem to "burn" as the alloying process travels along the length of the twiste.
<DocScrutinizer05>
peeps, I'm out. sorry I perform sub-par since 6 weeks already. I wish I could change that
<stevend>
Get well soon Doc.
<DocScrutinizer05>
thaks
<stevend>
There are also solid metals that when combined will become a room-temperature liquid, like sodium and potassium. In this case you can just mash the two metals together with a spoon and they will melt together.
<DocScrutinizer05>
one last note: somebody sent me an N900 in a nice otter box (cool stuff, never seen before). I don't know much of that device and shipment. Anyway thanks
<stevend>
I am imagining a box that is made of otters. I don't think that is quite the right interpretation.
<DocScrutinizer05>
if you are the one sending it: please drop me a note, or I have to stash it away and keep it till you claim it back
<DocScrutinizer05>
OEM OtterBox Defender Series Case
<DocScrutinizer05>
rubber and rigid plastic shell all around the phone. with water-tight plugs for all jacks
<stevend>
Ah. I think a box made of otters is more entertaining. =)
<drathir>
DocScrutinizer05: nice protection at screen...
<drathir>
and yea back cover little different front one higher to better protect the screen too...
<stevend>
Oh, is that a cover? It looks like part of the phone to me.
<Oksana>
OtterBox :-)
* drathir
hear about new technique to protect aganist water based on the butterfly wings...
<stevend>
Ohh. I feel stupid now.
<Oksana>
It's nice. You can actually slide open the phone, while it is in its armour. You don't need to take it off when you slide open the keyboard.
<drathir>
its some kind of aero pushed in the vacuum by high pressure on all motherboard, thin amount stay and made all motherboard water resist...
<stevend>
drathir: that is compatible with sensitive electronics? Is this just in the lab or is it availible?
<drathir>
exclude that original one case is bulletproof for me...
<drathir>
stevend: even hear possible use at tv and after watch movies outside in the rain ;p
<drathir>
crazy thing...
<stevend>
That sounds pretty cool.
<drathir>
but i guess atm very expensive one... but in future...
<stevend>
There was some stress testing on youtube on the n900. It already handled water pretty well, though a little extra could make it waterproof if you capped the ports too.
<stevend>
Imagine using your phone underwater...
<drathir>
after equipp behave little like water dont like the surface and dont catch them... and yes i saw the test at mobile covered by that substance and pushed into wc... phone calling inside wc under water ;p
<stevend>
Haha.
<stevend>
That sounds awesome.
<drathir>
stevend: mine one sadly jump to stone like surface flat screen down, i saw dead under eyes ;p
<stevend>
Though, from what I recall of butterfly wings, it would be hard to make that stuff so it lasts for years.
<stevend>
drathir: Aww. Sounds like very expensive buttered toast.
<drathir>
when i bring them up im almost was sure see the spider, but was insane so spider even not shutoff or any visable damage from hit...
<drathir>
so- no*
<stevend>
Really? Nice.
<stevend>
Do you have a cover like the Otterbox, or is it just the phone's case?
<drathir>
im pretty sure possible to hit nails like made by my old 3210i, but little aware of testing ;/
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<drathir>
yea i was shocked no damage at all...
<drathir>
no cover "virgin" one even no protector at screen...
<stevend>
I have seen drop tests and people saying they dropped their phone, but I have not heard someone say it landed face-down.
<Oksana>
Was it because of metal frame around the screen? If saves the screen from impact, even face-down. Then, you need to worry only about large stones aka nails.
<drathir>
if that wasnt a insine lucky im pretty sure its a bullet proof construction...
<Oksana>
It* saves screen from impact because the metal frame meets ground earlier.
<drathir>
Oksana: could be the impact power go into all case...
<drathir>
the worser i guess hit in one of corners...
<drathir>
btw the keyboard is almost the same great like was in the 6230i, after years not all keys wiped out...
<drathir>
its really rare in compare with other phones in my opinion... ofc now most of them touch ones...
<Oksana>
I think they are not changing. Not sure, but I think that entire look of phone is pre-built per your request. Colors, number and size of buttons...
<drathir>
that kind i guess is possible to make by voltage touch and feel i guess no idea if possible, but in phone to much battery drain...
<drathir>
but great idea in my opinion...
<stevend>
There is a display method for blind people that uses a grid of electrodes on a pad that is like a "lolly pop". You lick the pad and because of the sensitivity of your tounge you can sense where the electrodes are active.
<drathir>
in theory also air of water generated dots are be great, but still too much power comsumptions at all and hard to minimalize i guess...
<drathir>
yea some kinf of that...
<stevend>
I have seen videos of blind people reading large-type text with this device attached to a digital camera.
<stevend>
Interesting fact about it: They stop feeling it as sensations on their tounge and start perceiving it as images in front of them.
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<stevend>
After enough practice that is.
<stevend>
Er, acclimation I mean.
<drathir>
human brain is a amazing thing...
<stevend>
Yes. That is why I chose to get my BA in neuroscience.
<stevend>
(turns out that I hate biology though)
<drathir>
like blind ppl can ride by bike alone too by make sounds by tongue, some kind of echolocation like bats using, or submarine deep sensors using too...
<Oksana>
Echolocation when riding bicycle? Sounds like a myth.
<stevend>
No, he is correct.
<drathir>
Oksana: saw that its a person which one teach other ppl that technique...
<stevend>
Sighted people can use echolocation too, but having vision interferes with its use (and also interferes with braille reading).
<drathir>
yea for me first time that also the same reaction until i saw that...
<stevend>
There have been experiments of people living blindfolded for several weeks and traning in braille reading or echolocation, and they can get pretty good at it. Then when you remove their blindfolds the proficiency is drastically reduced.
<drathir>
he able to triangulate objects by sounds make by tongue, something like daredevil beutyful scene with electra on the rain...
<drathir>
the reporters aso thinks that have lerned and member the location of things and make a traps to make more difficult and that person able almost all traps detect only one if good remember cant...
<drathir>
human possibility of adaptation and exchange broken senses to improve other ones are amazing...
<drathir>
and personnally not belive that human using even half of power the brain...
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<drathir>
the same like for me is really low ppossibility only human form of life in universe egzist, too big it is...
<stevend>
At a low-level (neuronal and neural networks), a typical healthy brain is very efficiently using its resources. If their is unused "power", it is probably mostly because of garbage-in garbage-out.
<drathir>
take eg. thelepatic possibilities of some ppls that even less possible for me that human use more than half of brain power...
<drathir>
eg. when person have some wishesh about vegetables, milk or somthin food, sometimes is possible the human body have to low amount of somethin and the brain no idea how but can create feeling of wishesh that w/o person knowining cure...
<drathir>
im pretty sure is a lot of similar to that things about which i even dont know...
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<uhhimhere>
why does the spec page say OS = debian?
<uhhimhere>
and not maemo?
<drathir>
maemo is based at debian too...
<uhhimhere>
kool
<uhhimhere>
but why a non-phone OS
<uhhimhere>
is there going to be a mobile adaptation of debian
<uhhimhere>
like ubuntu
<drathir>
which one is phone os?
<uhhimhere>
nvm
<uhhimhere>
thnx
<drathir>
ubuntu also is close to debian, even not to say is based at debian...
<drathir>
nokia chosed debian and asimilate it for phone usage... but with neo900 that You uhhimhere can chose wanted os as well...
<uhhimhere>
ok kool
<uhhimhere>
i dont understand any of that
<drathir>
mean You able to install any os You like to...
<drathir>
from supported arm ones im guess... n900 atm have dual boot maemo and alarm...
* Oksana
thinks that alarm is not a separate OS; it is maemo with alarm-special options passed to it
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ACT_DEAD actually is a different runle
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ACT_DEAD actually is a different runlevel of maemo iirc
<kerio>
idk if upstart has runlevels
<kerio>
but yeah, similar idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
IroN900:~# runlevel
<DocScrutinizer05>
N 2
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know pure "untaineted" upstart has no runlevels
<DocScrutinizer05>
grep -ri dead /etc/event.d/
<DocScrutinizer05>
grep -ri dead /etc/init.d/fb-progress.sh
<DocScrutinizer05>
never heard of that bug in PR1.0 which caused reboot-loop and "Houston, we have a problem..." ?
<kerio>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
and once that state been entered, users were not able to recover from it
<kerio>
i bought my first n900 during 1.2
<kerio>
surely you were able to recover with coldflash and stuff
<kerio>
right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sth was nasty about it. Reflash should have worked, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway MALF is not an invention in HARM
<DocScrutinizer05>
hihi, had a typo HAREM
<bencoh>
:]
<bencoh>
aegis protection for a harem ... makes sense :>
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)))
* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders about HARM agony when Nokia shuts down the "shop"
<DocScrutinizer05>
Mozilla hosting HARM appshop? LOL!
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pretty sure aegis is good enough for defeating that idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
aegis been invented for dong so
<DocScrutinizer05>
doing*
<Pali>
there is downgrade exploit
<Pali>
and maybe in older firmware could be some bug in NOLO/kernel/etc which allows you to exploit secure parts...
<kerio>
heh, this could actually happen to a lot of hardware in the future
<kerio>
afaik some iphones *need* to speak to apple before being flashed
<Pali>
last year we saw lot of critical security problems in more linux applications/libraries, so Nokia crap apps cannot be without security problems too...
<kerio>
how will ashens be able to review our beloved gadgets on his couch, 15 years from now?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 and N900 will still work in 20 years. Not many of other gadgets will, though
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (hb) we can try ... i wouldn't call it a "spec", though. more like what companies who don't really want you to know what's going on call a "fact sheet". i'll have a look at it tomorrow.
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, call it a fact sheet then. Final and authoritative specs are the schematics anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe after schematics got finalized, we actually can come up with proper specs incl ABS MAX ratings for HB
<DocScrutinizer05>
until then, any "specs" are tentaive and subject to change in R&D without prior notice anyway
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<wpwrak>
oh, i'd be happy with "design specs". basically whatever we use to decide whether it works or not. we have to do that anyway, somehow. maybe the real limit is ten times larger, but then you're on your own. just as much as when you try to draw 2 A from your PC's USB port without even bothering to enumerate. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes you get fireworks. but the spec is pretty clear.
<Oksana>
Moin.
<Oksana>
Trying to get the seller to understand (it doesn't sound like he got through my first, long-winded message) that whatever SIM holders he shipped, are _different_ from photograph in his listing. So second message is deliberately short, and includes a link to a photo of the received SIM holders. http://i.imgur.com/xdv1Jka.jpg
<wpwrak>
the two in the photo look pretty much identical. so, no problem :)