<jonwil>
Oooh, new version of IDA and HexRays to play with...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
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<quatrox>
So annoying when just completed all the forms to buy an air plane ticket, the payment just hangs because that site requires yet another javascript. When allowing that script, one has to start from scratch
<Oksana>
Nokia Corporation ("Nokia") and Hildon Foundation ("Hildon") have announced an agreement regarding assigning Nokia's Maemo trademarks, domain names and trademark applications to Hildon. http://maemo.org/
<quatrox>
So Hildon got something to do with Microsoft
<Oksana>
Hildon sues Microsoft? On what grounds - I do not remember ever seeing full text of Nokia-HiFo agreement? The link says that Maemo trademark was owned by Nokia, and cancelled on September 27, 2013: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:vv28up.2.1
<Oksana>
Ok, a question to ask the HiFo board. They should have access to the documents, right?
<x29a>
is that hildon related to the desktop software called hildon?
<ds2>
really? so anyone can call their half ass X based embedded setup Maemo to confuse things?
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Hildon sues Microsoft? On what grounds - I do not remember ever seeing full text of Nokia-HiFo agreement?<< yup, that's a relevant point. Nobody has, not even council
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<Oksana>
HiFo Board must have seen it. They cannot disclose it, probably, but they can sue Microsoft for trademark infringement, if Nokia has truly given all Maemo trademarks to Hildon Foundation.
<DocScrutinizer05>
youz cannot disclose a legitimate contract? WTF?
<DocScrutinizer05>
not even CIA files are completely closed even to congress
<wpwrak>
if the contract has a confidentiality clause, ... (of you've agreed on that by some other means)
<DocScrutinizer05>
confidentially clause on a Registered Trademark is bullshit
* DocScrutinizer05
thinks that Neo900 will register the maemo trademark tomorrow
<DocScrutinizer05>
If I had to guess, I'd think that Nokia cheated on Hifo, maybe out of own lack of comprehensive understanding of the situation
<Oksana>
((who cares about sekrit treaties between Nokia and HiFo?)) That sounds so like beginning of World War :-) Still, it's an urgent question to HiFo Board, particularly in light of HiFo needing to transfer ownership of said trademarks, and any other assets, to e.V. - before Hildon Foundation disappears.
<Oksana>
Maybe, Nokia cancelled the trademark with intention that HiFo would re-register said trademark? Who knows :-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess Nokia right hand cancelled the TM and left hand didn't notice and continued weird negotiations with HiFo
<DocScrutinizer05>
didn't notice or denied
<DocScrutinizer05>
who in a sane mind would register a trademark?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that got abandoned by another company a few months before
<Oksana>
Maemo trademark was cancelled, not abandoned.
* Oksana
doesn't understand the difference, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, please enlighten me about the semantic difference
<Oksana>
Maemo trademark was cancelled by Nokia, Meego trademark was abandoned by Linux Foundation. Abandoned trademark applications may be revived and cancelled. So, Cancelled is more final than Abandoned.
<Oksana>
HiFo will need to register maemo.org, then?
<Oksana>
Or will it be e.V., by then?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess whoever wants it will fail, it's pretty hard to claim a doman when it expires, usually some domain grabber's bots are faster than you
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik
<DocScrutinizer05>
THEN maemo will really run into trouble
<DocScrutinizer05>
the domain name is basically the *only* thing that matters
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't need any freaking cancelled trademark
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we'll never get any rights in any closed code Nokia had in maemo
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the whole contract (if it really exists) between Nokia and HiFo is basically about the domain name and nothing else
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nokia has a record of not being able to update any registrations / leases in time
<DocScrutinizer05>
that should suffice for a dispute, together with the fact that maemo.org points to the maemo servers owned by maemo community and not Nokia, plus the two URLs above
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's nothing wrong with the maemo.org DNS *so far* but when Nokia fails to extend the registration, a dispute will make sure HiFo can claim the domain
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm no expert in all that, you should consult somebody who really has a clue
<Oksana>
Ok, so we need, no later than the next Council meeting, to urgently contact HiFo Board so that they would investigate it, and start the dispute. What is a UDRP provider? As in, the costs to hire a UDRP provider to handle a complaint often start around US$1000 to $2000.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you prolly should hurry (a domain doesn't get deleted immediately after expiration, but the rosk to lose the domain will grow with every week)
<DocScrutinizer05>
if Nokia was worth for anything, they'd transfer the domain to HiFo by normal KK
<DocScrutinizer05>
and techstaff asked HiFo to negotiate that with Nokia, some >1 year ago already
<DocScrutinizer05>
formal procedure to transfer a domain to a new owner
<DocScrutinizer05>
please contact warfare!
<DocScrutinizer05>
aka Falk
<Oksana>
Ok, will contact warfare, no later than next Council meeting.
<DocScrutinizer05>
he's the one who knows how to handle that stuff - or he knows whom of his cpolleagues to ask for help and advice
<DocScrutinizer05>
colleagues*
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't hope for HiFo to do *anything* meaningful about it
<Oksana>
I will probably send out an email to Council and warfare, so that they would have time to think about domain registration before the Council meeting. It's not like they necessarily visit TMO every day.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, please do. Best thing to do
<DocScrutinizer05>
CC HiFo won't hurt, but as said above, don't hope for HiFo doing anything in time
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, and there's scratchbox.org which also waits for a ChProv/KK
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, but I#ll cancel it eventually
<DocScrutinizer05>
costs me 10 bucks a year, I'm not willing to pay those and take the bashing by chemist and others for that
<Oksana>
Ok, so it should be transferred to Hildon Foundation? Is there an easier way to do it than "filing a dispute"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, somebody tells me where to transfer it to
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't care where to, HiFo, M$, even win7mac
<Oksana>
Ok, it will be a good example before we do it with maemo.org. By the way, what's the chance that Nokia would be willing to transfer maemo.org to Hildon Foundation if we just asked them by email?
<DocScrutinizer05>
zilch, according to the end result of last time we did that
<Oksana>
No reply, or negative reply?
<DocScrutinizer05>
negative reply
<Oksana>
Not good. :-( Well, it helps the "filing a dispute" route.
<DocScrutinizer05>
please ask warfare, I don't want to deal with that stuff any longer, got fed up with it and with the bashing I received from HiFo for doing so
<DocScrutinizer05>
warfare is your man
<Oksana>
Ok. Thank you! Better transfer scratchbox.org to HiFo, to avoid future problems. And I am sure I am not the only one who would donate to HiFo bank account regularly to keep domains registered.
<DocScrutinizer05>
nobody else in all that bunch really has a clue, incl me though I at least have enough of a clue to know the others have even less
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy, they got enough funds to pay for the domains for next 100 years
<DocScrutinizer05>
but no account you could donate to
<DocScrutinizer05>
a year ago I'd even been willing to let HiFo pay the domain and I simply keep it til 2019 or even longer, but not anymore
<Oksana>
If they have funds, they have a bank account. Albeit, they are moving it currently (when?) from HiFo to e.V. But, either way, a direct bank transfer should be possible - just publish the information needed for the transfer.
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, topic closed
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise you get me started about such transfer being robbery of funds donated by maemo community to an entity they had control in
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: should we get a vBulletin license to set up a Neo900 foum to mirror the tmo neo900 one? Maybe in 3 weeks there's no talk.maemo.org anymore
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<freemangordon>
seems me and jonwil can't match the times we're awake :D
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<kerio>
lmao, maemo.org becoming a domain-squatting page
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<jonwil>
freemangordon: ping
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<freemangordon>
dammit, I missed jonwil again :(
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<sixwheeledbeast>
I posted that one 3 weeks or so ago...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
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<quatrox>
DocScrutinizer05: will you be attending FOSDEM?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm trying to not join mass events, but we'll see, maybe I'm forced to
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I even get rid of this dang flu until then
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least since devuan I'm not so worried to run into Poettering and my reactions in such event anymore
<quatrox>
If you got the same thing that has been going around here, it has a duration of 3 weeks
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm afraid it's sth different since it lasts almost 8 weeks already
<DocScrutinizer05>
but my mileage usually varies on such things, a lot
<quatrox>
Well, if you are spreading deceases, then maybe you want to run into him
<quatrox>
not sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly after the last ~24 months which were quite exhausting
<DocScrutinizer05>
((spreading diseases)) I'm worried about spreading as much as about catching
<DocScrutinizer05>
that sounds like a psychological problem but in fact is an immunological one
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, not aids :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
just extended contact to toxic chemicals
<Pali>
systemd now contains NAT support
<Pali>
no thanks
<Wizzup>
well, no, it's an interface to iptables
<Wizzup>
(but I agree with the general sentiment)
<Pali>
no, I do not want to let init daemon to overwrite iptables settings
<Pali>
why to reinvent wheel? there is already iptables and ip6tables binaries
<Pali>
why to copy functionality into systemd?
<Pali>
because iptables is not part of systemd project?
<Pali>
(now I believe that nobody include iptables project into systemd...)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pali: [2015-01-15 Thu 04:22:21] <DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-14 Wed 13:28:48] <SylvieLorxu> Oh god systemd actually has a firewall. I thought people in #debianfork were kidding...
<Pali>
systemd still does not include bootloader and kernel...
<kerio>
yet
<DocScrutinizer05>
hooray ¡
<Pali>
it can be even worse
<Pali>
busybox inclusion :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
is it fair to say kernel includes parts of systemd? (kdbus)
<Pali>
not yet
<DocScrutinizer05>
not sure about bootloader either
<Pali>
grub1, grub2, lilo, uboot, ...
<Pali>
which project become part of systemd?
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually systemd already had battles about kernel cmdline debug parameter, that's bootloader related in my book
<Pali>
problem was that systemd crashed when debug was in cmdline
<Pali>
and you can use kernel cmdline also for userspace applications
<Pali>
or for whatever you want
<DocScrutinizer05>
general systemd approach: no mercy regardless of the subsystem that suffers the damage
<Pali>
just some strings are special and parsed by kernel, other are ignored by kernel...
<DocScrutinizer05>
which actually is why I hate systemd
<Pali>
after udev inclusion into systemd, udev does not work on old kernels
<Pali>
pavelm want to use maemo 2.6.28 kernel with new debian 7 on n900
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously
<Pali>
but it is not possible, because udev does not support 2.6.28 kernel
<Pali>
bye bye
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I said a few days ago maemo needs to go devuan now
<Pali>
and because more applications depends on new udev, you cann downgrade it
<Pali>
last version of lsusb program depends on new version od udev
<DocScrutinizer05>
fsck!
<Pali>
there are hidden core dependences which force you to use new udev
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus devuan
<Pali>
anyway, lsusb which is in ubuntu 12.04 (lsusb version 005) has bug which cause infinite loop
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's about time, a few months later and there's no way back
<Pali>
I wanted to upgrade to 007 version, but I cannot because of old udev version
<Pali>
I really have no idea how devuan wants to fix this dependency hell
<DocScrutinizer05>
good question, but if anybody will then those guys, they have the expertise
<Pali>
lsusb is really something which I need on machine
<Pali>
and have two options: one which not working because of infinite loop bug or upgrading to new systemd/udev which you do not want to use...
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe you want to join the team, sharing your thoughts and helping fight the systemd avalanche
<kerio>
Pali: install openbsd
<Pali>
kerio: openbsd kernel is useless on non server machines
<kerio>
eeeeeeh
<Pali>
I already wrote that openbsd userspace + linux kernel is something which could work
<DocScrutinizer05>
on a sidenote: now there's a German lang subchannel of #devuan: #devuan-de
<Pali>
kerio: openbsd kernel now removed support for loadable kernel modules
<Wizzup>
Guys, there is eudev
<Pali>
all kernel modules must be linked into one kernel binary
<Wizzup>
and you can also run your own gentoo-based binary distro if you really want to avoid systemd
<Wizzup>
or see if debian will somehow ship alternatives after all
<DocScrutinizer05>
WUT? monolithic kernel only???
<Pali>
DocScrutinizer05: it is small kernel
<Pali>
they had support for loadable modules, it I think it was not often used
<Pali>
also openbsd kernel had (maybe still has?) big mutex/lock on network stack
<DocScrutinizer05>
((or see if debian will somehow ship alternatives after all)) haha, yeah, santa claus will bring them next year
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<kerio>
Pali: what do you need modules for?
<kerio>
on, like, a laptop
<Pali>
full hw support of laptop
<DocScrutinizer05>
or, like, a phone where no fool ever thinks about attaching a USB<->XYZ adapzer
<Pali>
modules for all hw drivers
<Pali>
DocScrutinizer05: you really do not attach usb<->xyz adapter on server
<Pali>
and it make sense... for security
<DocScrutinizer05>
on server sure, you may get away with monolithic kernel
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it's prolly even the better alternative in that case
<DocScrutinizer05>
I already start shouting and cursing when I shoot down avahi and crap on any of my servers
<kerio>
Pali: but you know the hardware of your laptop :>
<Pali>
find /sys/devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
nobody does
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are like USB connectors, you know?
<Pali>
kerio: I have detailed schemantics of laptop (like for n900)
<Pali>
so I have some idea what hw I have
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could argue if a USB-ethernet adapter needs a kernel module on top of *hci, or that rather should get handled in userland
<DocScrutinizer05>
but following that approach will buy you a travel into land of microkernels
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even worse
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry when I stated sth silly (which usually is the reason for sudden silence), I'm not performing up to par
<kerio>
i guess that freebsd is a bit better in usability
<DocScrutinizer05>
just a few days ago I pondered making udev change the name of my /dev/ttyUSBn to either /dev/u1233a_keysight or to /dev/PPS16005_voltcraft. then I suddenly realized that my distro already switched to systemd and thus garbled udev, felt nausea and never thought about it again since
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<DocScrutinizer05>
kerio: maemo's firewalls are on netbsd iirc
<kerio>
firewalls shoudl be openbsd
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe it was openbsd, can't recall for sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
warfare knows his sh*
* DocScrutinizer05
just felt like visiting monitor.maemo.org/ganglia/ for nostalgic reasons, and coughs
<kerio>
openbsd is pretty fucking amazing for firewalls
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer05: afaik there's still an openrc package for debian?
<kerio>
sysvinit as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, possibly there is, but what it's worth when it can't install due to conflicts?
<DocScrutinizer05>
systemd introducing a dependency hell that creates the 3 hops problem: virtually every packet will depend on systemd over three indirections, thus you cannot get rid of anything, neither systemd itself nor any of its dependencies/includes like systemd-udev
<DocScrutinizer05>
nor install stuff like lsusb, see pali's story above
<kerio>
systemd-shim seems to work
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's the way to go
<DocScrutinizer05>
devuan following same approach with getting rid of systemd which FPTF project follows for getting rid of closed Nokia blobs
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically
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<jonwil>
freemangordon: ping
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: I wonder which is more "difficult" :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
depends on your weighting factors you apply to partial problems
<DocScrutinizer05>
FPTF is a difficult but static target, devuan is a moving target which gets moved by a truckload of "ignorant" devels and istro maintainers
<DocScrutinizer05>
distro*
<DocScrutinizer05>
until devuan reached a distro sans systemd ready for primetime, systemd cabal will already have occupied more territories
<DocScrutinizer05>
and lots of "app" packages will have released a new version that again introduces systemd dependencies and the "patches" that made previous version work on devuan will not apply/fir anymore
<bencoh>
at least next stable is frozen
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<freemangordon>
jonwil: pong
<DocScrutinizer05>
now finaaaaaallllly
<freemangordon>
yeah
<freemangordon>
:)
<freemangordon>
though he seems afk
<freemangordon>
jonwil: please /query whatever you want to ask me, as I will be afk as well soon
<DocScrutinizer05>
lemme guess, sth about new IDA/hexrays?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-01-17 Sat 01:25:58] <jonwil> Oooh, new version of IDA and HexRays to play with...