DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900
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<quatrox> dos1: hello
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<bencoh> DocScrutinizer05: http://9gag.com/gag/a9Mg4PW
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<freemangordon> bencoh: OMG
<DocScrutinizer05> normal
<DocScrutinizer05> funny is: it has a fat bug in the mini schematics
<DocScrutinizer05> either input or output needs npn/pnp swapped or c/e swapped
<freemangordon> hmm, those might be independently controlled
<freemangordon> (if I get you right)
<DocScrutinizer05> sure. nevertheless input side voltage > capacitor DC > output
<freemangordon> BTW what type of transistor is that? I can't recall I've seen such sign before
<DocScrutinizer05> in some of the transistors the current won't flow direction of the arrow
<DocScrutinizer05> oooh, those a mosfets
<DocScrutinizer05> missed that
<DocScrutinizer05> mosfets may work this way
<freemangordon> hmm, weird, this: https://dmohankumar.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/mosfet1.jpg is what I know to be mosfet
<DocScrutinizer05> weird sign, yes
<freemangordon> are you sure this is not some other weird new type of transistor?
<DocScrutinizer05> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET#Circuit_symbols and no, not completely sure
<DocScrutinizer05> IGBT or whatever possible
<freemangordon> yeah, looks like something similar
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<Pali> bencoh: and what about name of that label law in german? rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz
<bencoh> oO
<bencoh> that's inhuman
<Pali> DocScrutinizer05: it is normal too?
<bencoh> didnt they say anything about that in Geneva ?
<DocScrutinizer05> Pali: hardly
<bencoh> DocScrutinizer05: what does it stand for ?
<DocScrutinizer05> some legal mumbojumbo
<DocScrutinizer05> *gesetz, the only relevant part
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd dare to say it's no real live German language
<DocScrutinizer05> it's abuse of german (meta)grammar in a jurisdiction context
<DocScrutinizer05> other popular similar practices are excessive use of acronyms in e.g. USA
<DocScrutinizer05> serving virtually same purpose
<DocScrutinizer05> in German the jurisdiction / jurisprudence usually does same, prolly the above monster is never used, abbreviated as REÜwG
<bencoh> "fly, you fool"
<DocScrutinizer05> RflEttÜAÜG
<DocScrutinizer05> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz
<DocScrutinizer05> >>Gesetz zur Übertragung der Aufgaben für die Überwachung der Rinderkennzeichnung und Rindfleischetikettierung<<
<DocScrutinizer05> [translation (shortened): Law for transfer of duties regarding labeling and tagging of cattle and beef]
<Pali> so lawyers still have not invented spaces? :D
<DocScrutinizer05> they love to create such monsters, I guess
<DocScrutinizer05> the congress started laughing when the speaker first mentioned this law by the monster-name
<DocScrutinizer05> in english language such concatenations of words are simply not known, so they can't do it, otherwise I'm sure they would as well
<DocScrutinizer05> rotbraun -> reddish brown
<Pali> I would say somebody could create compression algorithm based on this concatenation
<DocScrutinizer05> other words exist: waterfall
<DocScrutinizer05> copyright
<DocScrutinizer05> but you're commonly not free to create new words, like XYright
<DocScrutinizer05> in German that's common practice
<Pali> Internetverbindungen
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess that translates to internet _ connections
<DocScrutinizer05> not internetconnections
<DocScrutinizer05> so a straight forward "anglification" of Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz would be Rindfleisch Etikettierungs Überwachungs Aufgaben Übertragungs Gesetz
<Pali> yes it that windows "folder" name where is list of network adapters...
<DocScrutinizer05> the ending *s looks strange this way, though
<DocScrutinizer05> those ending "*s" are very interesting indeed
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm no linguist but it seems they denote actions (as opposed to objects)
<DocScrutinizer05> (no linguist) I know to use German language, but don't understand it either
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
<bencoh> :]
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<DocScrutinizer05> actually I consider concatenations of >2 words as abnormal
<DocScrutinizer05> it can only be done based on the perverted rule that a concatenation of 2 words forms 1 word
<DocScrutinizer05> anybody sane in their mind would say a concatenated word is not a normal word and thus must not be used to form a concatenation with it
<nox-> "donaudampschiffahrtskapitaensmuetze"
<DocScrutinizer05> that's a hoax
<nox-> it is?
<bencoh> any mathematician would say that cat is a valid binary operation on the words monoid :>
<DocScrutinizer05> donaudampschiffahrt is a almost normal word, kapitaensmuetze too. Concatenating them neither makes sense nor does it sound correct
<bencoh> or rather that given S the set of words and + the cat binary operation, (S,+) is a monoid :>
<DocScrutinizer05> though I'd write that as Donau-Dampschiffahrt
<nox-> ah i forgot the "gesellschaft"
<DocScrutinizer05> you can form words of arbitrary length this way
<DocScrutinizer05> but it sounds odd and usually isn't accepted as valid
<DocScrutinizer05> iow somebody using that word doesn't make it appear in Duden automatically
<DocScrutinizer05> not everybody has the power to create new words, they emerge from common usage or in semi-legal texts
<DocScrutinizer05> the latter happened on RflEttÜAÜG
<nox-> just checked, duden has at least Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft
<DocScrutinizer05> well, that sounds almost normal
<nox-> and they sure have captains...
<DocScrutinizer05> it's a composite of well known Donaudampfschiffahrt and Gesellschaft
<DocScrutinizer05> so yes, after Duden has Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft , you may concatenate it with another word and it still looks 'legit'
<DocScrutinizer05> scrap my above idea about "*s", the Gesellschaft is an object and yet would end *s in a compound word
<Pali> bencoh: it would be grupoid
<Pali> you do not need neutral element
<Pali> and I think there is no neutral element in S :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft*s*kapitän
<DocScrutinizer05> though that is semantically incorrect, it suggests the Captain is steering the Company
<nox-> or just that he's working for them
<DocScrutinizer05> nope
<nox-> mhm
<DocScrutinizer05> not really
<DocScrutinizer05> a company boss is not one of N bosses that form a company
<nox-> captain != boss
<nox-> "lufthansakapitaen"?
<DocScrutinizer05> well, boss of the vessel, yes
<nox-> well yeah
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, right, depends on context
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<DocScrutinizer05> that's dark filthy corners of living language
<nox-> hehe
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<quatrox> Is the SHR project still on ice?
<DocScrutinizer05> I dunno, I think dos1 claimed maintanership, to some degree
<DocScrutinizer05> but I guess it's not really a living distro, in a sense of frequent contributions and new projects
<DocScrutinizer05> asl in #openmoko-cdevel ! :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> ask*
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<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-19 Mon 19:35:17] <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybpgm-0-parts.jpg UBB suddenly gave me ideas. How about dual-using 2nd SIM slot for stuff like e.g. VGA-out, on Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-19 Mon 19:58:59] <DocScrutinizer05> 8 contacts, not much but same count like MMC
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-19 Mon 23:31:51] <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: (SIM) i guess that could work. not sure if that would get us into regulatory troubles, though (?)
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-19 Mon 23:33:19] <DocScrutinizer05> regulatory troubles I don't expect with whatever mods to SIM interface as long as it still meets the requirements which are: electrical plus mandatory CardDetect signal when card can get swapped. Gemalto themselves suggested mux for dual-SIM
<wpwrak> indeed :) ISO/IEC 7816-1 is a lovely standard. has bascially no content. yet you'd want to look at it just to be sure there's nothing there. and of course, like most of the ISO stuff, it's for-pay. and in this case, hard to find elsewhere.
<DocScrutinizer05> if there were particular requirements beyond those mentioned in PHS8 hardware manual, I'd consider that a quite unusual fault by Gemalto
<DocScrutinizer05> they elaborate on ESR of VCC rail and on CD
<DocScrutinizer05> and they even su8ggest a method for SIM mux that is prone to violate even CD when not done correctly, so their requirements are met by software, not hardware, in this case
<DocScrutinizer05> their suggested hw-mux for dual-SIM doesn't enforce proper CD pulse when switching SIM
<quatrox> DocScrutinizer05: are you considering connecting the CPU to the SIM card slot?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<quatrox> via GPIO?
<DocScrutinizer05> alternatively to modem interface
<DocScrutinizer05> sure via GPIO, what else? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> well, in theory we could use USB D+/- ;-P
<quatrox> You cold also have used SPI, but I prefer GPIO
<DocScrutinizer05> SPI, for talking to SIM?
<wpwrak> 7816-2 seems to be completely unfindable :-(
<DocScrutinizer05> ooomph
<DocScrutinizer05> ask the cert lab what they will test?
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess they should offer some docs defining the test criteria, when we are going to throw some few k EUR at them
<quatrox> Maybe SIM cards does not use SPI
<bencoh> Pali: yeah I guess "" is not a valid word :)
<DocScrutinizer05> never checked
<Pali> :-)
<wpwrak> (cert lab) i'm sure they'll be happy to buy the documents on our behalf and then pass them on, charging some generous margin on top :)
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: while modem is connected to SIM, CPU GPIO and other signals (VGA et al?) are connected to the then-passive 2nd SIM and thus do not interfere with modem<->SIM interface in any way
<wpwrak> trying to determine card thickness from card holder data sheets ... in the one of our slot-in holder, the height of the card area appears but it's not readable ...
<DocScrutinizer05> well, it's obviously same thickness like any arbitrary chipcard
<DocScrutinizer05> (cert lab) when they don't specify *what* they are testing, I guess nobody will hire them
<DocScrutinizer05> a fuzzy statement like 2comliance with XY" won't suffice, eh?
<DocScrutinizer05> at least their protocols will have to list each test in detail, with results
<DocScrutinizer05> that's :-( how?
<wpwrak> microSD is 1.0 mm, so a 0.8 mm PCB fits nicely
<wpwrak> hard to find a suitable PCB to act as connector
<DocScrutinizer05> meh
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<wpwrak> (cert lab) well, "what" is "iso 7816-*", of course ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> flex PCB with some backup "cardboard" to increase thickness to 0.7 will just work fine. 0.7mm PCB are also no unobtainium
<wpwrak> i think there are also detailed testing specs in some of the ISO documents. so you can probably do everything by reference, never mentioning a single physical property
<DocScrutinizer05> why would they do that?
<wpwrak> not unobtainium. just MUCH harder to find than 0.8 mm. well, there's 0.4 mm. that's still reasonably easy to find. not nearly as easy as 0.8 mm, but better it's still an "off the shelf" size
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<DocScrutinizer05> I bet 0.8mm will fit just fine
<wpwrak> (why) maybe they're like the ISO spirit ;-) but i don't know. i just wouldn't count on them to give us detailed specs. if they do, nice.
<DocScrutinizer05> "count on"?? did we ever count on anything? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> we don't need detailed specs, a simple "check SIM interface for ESR and data integrity on specified clockrate" sufffices
<DocScrutinizer05> if there's a "check device and schematics for no violations on 7816-2 circuit design rules" would also give a hint that we actually need more info
<DocScrutinizer05> and a report would invariably contain a checkpoint that's even more detailed, when they want to answer it with a simple "passed"/"not passed"
<kerio> sim card-shaped pcb with pads?
<DocScrutinizer05> kerio: that's the idea
<kerio> neat
<DocScrutinizer05> 8 pins
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds like almost enough for e.g. VGA
<wpwrak> probably best to not promise any specific functionality, just gpios. let people use their creativity :)
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm not suggesting to bitbang VGA ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> even while you already did that on NN
<DocScrutinizer05> hysnc vsync R G B GND. Audio?
<wpwrak> i cheated a bit there. pure bit-banging only got me to a low resolution. not even sure if it was 640 x 200.
<wpwrak> no audio on VGA :)
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<DocScrutinizer05> (cert) of course - IFF they really want a schematics to do the cert - there will be a multi-phase cert process where first step is to just send them the schematics and they have a look at it if it's OK so far
<DocScrutinizer05> and that job can't cost as much as a complete certification, and the reply needs to clearly state what they don't like, if anything
<kerio> bitbanging vga...
<kerio> oh god
<DocScrutinizer05> kerio: hehe, that's Werner, he is almost more crazy than I am ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> (just gpios) we will provide a proper hw-encoded/transcoded VGA signal in parallel to the already *) available GPIO. *) already available from the SIM<->CPU interface forming the SIMcard reader for the passive card
<DocScrutinizer05> any kind aof *decent* video output (PC monitor quality level and usecase) was a very much desired feature, some users were willing to pay almost twice as much for the device when it comes with such support for a decent monitor
<DocScrutinizer05> lemme put it this way: I rather kick out kbd backlight and hygrometer than the decent video jack
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders how to distinguish between VGA-'plug' and a regular SIM, so no weird signals will get enabled when SIM inserted
<nox-> vga? dont most other phones have hdmi these days?
<DocScrutinizer05> 'sacrifice' one of the 8 contacts to provide a unique property not found on SIM?
<DocScrutinizer05> nox-: we have no HDMI chips we could use with OMAP3, which come with proper datasheet and without mandatory membership in a cheesy expensive club of HDMI-users
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<DocScrutinizer05> at least that's last state of investigations I recall
<nox-> :(
<ds2> is full blown HDMI really needed?
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't think so, VGA is pretty sufficient for resolutions up to those offered by OMAP3
<nox-> i guess it'd just read better on the specs...
<ds2> then why not just do DVI?
<nox-> is there a small connector for that?
<ds2> you can't pass audio over it but most displays will honor the video signal
<DocScrutinizer05> we need to check what can get done
<ds2> you can send DVI signals over HDMI connector
<nox-> mhm
<ds2> just need to be careful how you label it to avoid getting C/D letters
<DocScrutinizer05> we have no HDMI connector
<kerio> isn't hdmi just dvi + some other stuff anyway?
<ds2> i.e. the BBC/BBX used a HDMI connector for DVI
<kerio> or is dvi-over-hdmi a separate thing than normal dvi
<kerio> *normal hdmi
<ds2> TI TQFP410 will encode it and docs are available
<ds2> HDMI is more or less DVI + encryption crap + audio transport
<DocScrutinizer05> encode from which input signal?
<ds2> from a normal parallel video signal
<ds2> look at the BBC/BBX schematics
<ds2> but most HDMI displays will accept a plain DVI signal
<DocScrutinizer05> I hope VGA will be cheapest solution to meet the requirements
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<ds2> what exactly are you calling VGA? and what kind of connector?
<ds2> I can think of 3-4 different things that can be covered by that category
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-19 Mon 23:34:56] <DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-19 Mon 19:35:17] <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybpgm-0-parts.jpg UBB suddenly gave me ideas. How about dual-using 2nd SIM slot for stuff like e.g. VGA-out, on Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-20 Tue 00:24:35] <DocScrutinizer05> hsysnc vsync R G B GND. Audio?
<ds2> Oh my
<ds2> never ever ever ever ever ask me to volunteer to help with EMI problems :D
<DocScrutinizer05> but of course when we can find a nice cheap well-documented chip that can convert the SoC<->LCD interface to some true digital format, we'd be highly interested
<ds2> as for the question about Linux support... it just works.
<ds2> Linux doesn't care
<ds2> VGA can be implemented as: level shifter + DAC on a parallel video output
<ds2> same output you feed to the TFP410 DVI encoder
<DocScrutinizer05> we have no parallel video output
<ds2> *nod*
<ds2> now if you were using the OMAP4....
<ds2> ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> :S
<ds2> OMAP4 has HDMI encoder built in + a parallel bus that can be setup to drive the serial LCDs
<ds2> alas, you loose the TV out
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess you know I know that
<ds2> analog SVIDEO out
<ds2> *nod*