DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900
arossdotme has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
arossdotme has joined #neo900
freemangordon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
arossdotme is now known as help
help is now known as arossdotme
* arossdotme is away: Away
Xseba360 has joined #neo900
* arossdotme is back (gone 00:06:36)
<Oksana> Moin
xes has quit [Quit: Going offline...]
arossdotme is now known as astr
astr is now known as arossdotme
SylvieLorxu has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in]
arcean has quit [Quit: Application terminated!]
Xseba360 has quit [Quit: Page closed]
b1101 has quit [Quit: b1101]
b1101 has joined #neo900
Dry_Lips has left #neo900 ["Leaving"]
phre4k has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
uhhimhere has joined #neo900
<uhhimhere> so just wondering
<uhhimhere> did the old n900 have a dts for its hardware?
Kabouik_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<Oksana> dts ?
<uhhimhere> device tree source
<uhhimhere> thats good that its almost all there
<DocScrutinizer05> I think the N900 maemo kernel was pre-DT
che1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<MonkeyofDoom> haha
<MonkeyofDoom> way pre-DT
<MonkeyofDoom> I'm running upstreamish 3.8 at which point I think it n900 wasn't DT-ready
<MonkeyofDoom> -it
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
demure has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> iirc freemangordon made DT "work" only with 3.12 plusminus a few
<DocScrutinizer05> IroN900:~# uname -a
<DocScrutinizer05> Linux IroN900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l GNU/Linux
<uhhimhere> so will the neo900 have a dts
<uhhimhere> so that users can compile whatever vanilla they want
<uhhimhere> for fun
<DocScrutinizer05> ask freemangordon, for example
<DocScrutinizer05> you know, Neo900 ships without much of a OS anyway. Up to community to port whaever OS they like to have on it
<DocScrutinizer05> but yes, the FPTF is aiming at running kernel >3.1x on Neo900, I'm not sure how it will pan out for maemo but it will provide your DTS for sure
<DocScrutinizer05> ~fptf
<infobot> i guess fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308
<uhhimhere> also out of curiosity why go with a powervr based SoC when more readily hacked gpu alternatives like vivante and adreno exist
<uhhimhere> is it availability
<uhhimhere> also the mali ones are there as well
<DocScrutinizer05> dang, where's our faq#why_omap3
<uhhimhere> found it
<uhhimhere> still
<DocScrutinizer05> and rather http://neo900.org/faq#cpu
<DocScrutinizer05> which actually has the comprehensive set of reasons to stay with OMAP3
<DocScrutinizer05> OMAP4 is pretty much deprecated by me since it has SiErr I don't want to work around in hardware. And it's already unclear if it would be really sw-compatible on a binary level to N900
<DocScrutinizer05> OMAP5 is actually too large to get it fit into Neo900
<uhhimhere> i understand the whole SoCs arent OTS
<DocScrutinizer05> and any non-OMAP architecture is a complete nogo when we wanna stay compatible
<uhhimhere> but dont they have surplus?
<uhhimhere> these companies of past generation SoCs?
<DocScrutinizer05> huh?
<uhhimhere> i dont know lying around in a warehouse somewhere
<uhhimhere> obviously they dont make just enough
<DocScrutinizer05> what are you talking about?
<uhhimhere> surplus
<DocScrutinizer05> of what?
<uhhimhere> SoCs
<DocScrutinizer05> errr
<uhhimhere> from past generation
<DocScrutinizer05> you want a OMAP2?
<uhhimhere> no
<uhhimhere> but neither do i want quadcore superflex snapkrait with duplexing gigaflops
<DocScrutinizer05> then you should be happy with OMAP3, no?
<uhhimhere> but i could also be happy with the rbpi processor
<uhhimhere> again because of the open documentation of the GPU
<uhhimhere> people could work on it
<DocScrutinizer05> well, people could work with Neo900 without even using the GPU
<uhhimhere> aws talking to a guy last night on rbpi dev
<uhhimhere> thinks the rbpi v3d has 192 cores
<DocScrutinizer05> and we actually have 2D drivers, only 3D is closed source, though recently leaked
b1101 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<DocScrutinizer05> we're not interested in the number of GPU cores
<DocScrutinizer05> we're perfectly happy when the closed blob GPU driver of maemo works on Neo900
<uhhimhere> im not talking leaked see page 89-90 : http://www.broadcom.com/docs/support/videocore/VideoCoreIV-AG100-R.pdf
<DocScrutinizer05> http://neo900.org/faq#gfx
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm not talking about broadcom. The name alone makes me shudder
<DocScrutinizer05> please understand that our choice of SoC was not because of but rather despite of the the GPU it comes with
<DocScrutinizer05> we had other criteria to choose our SoC
<uhhimhere> yeah compatibility wise i suppose it shouldnt be a problem since theyre bot ARM
<uhhimhere> i know availability is a main concern
<uhhimhere> because SoCs arent OTS
<DocScrutinizer05> when you think SWoC == CPU + GPU, you're quite mistaken
<DocScrutinizer05> and no idea what's OTS
<uhhimhere> off the shelf
<DocScrutinizer05> again, please read http://neo900.org/faq#cpu
<DocScrutinizer05> nothing to add to this
<ds2> just a wild ass, not thought out idea - how painful powerwise is it to use one of those FPGA w/Cortex A cores?
<DocScrutinizer05> generaly FPGA are power hogs
<uhhimhere> DocScrutinizer05: thats great and all then question is why even bother messing with the SoC... just keep the old one
<ds2> i know in general...but is one of those FPGA w/hard cores akin to using an Allwinner SoC or is it magnitudes worse then that
<DocScrutinizer05> why keep the old one when we can use a faster one while staying 100% compatible?
<ds2> a FPGA would solve some of the GPU issues
<ds2> and SoCs ARE OTS
<uhhimhere> because its not that much faster, and compatibility is theoretical
<uhhimhere> only allwinner
<DocScrutinizer05> ohmy
b1101 has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> go buy a OMAP3530 then. GTA04 using DM3730. Period
<ds2> did I hear someone claiming compatibility between the DM3730 and the OMAP3430 is only theoretical?
ashneo76 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah ;-P
<uhhimhere> well until something is actually implemented it is theoretical isnt it
<ds2> I don't have a cluebat big enough to address that one....
<DocScrutinizer05> I ran binaries from N900 on N950/N9 - both have OMAP3730
<ds2> if you design the board right, you can just swap those 2 chips around
<DocScrutinizer05> or 3630, who knows
<DocScrutinizer05> ds2: thanks!
ashneo76 has joined #neo900
<ds2> IIRC, the key thing is a few bypass caps
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
b1101 has quit [Client Quit]
<uhhimhere> ds2: are there any non allwinners that are ots?
<ds2> what I am curious is - how are you handling the MIPI stuff?
<ds2> uhhimhere: virtually all SoCs re OTS
<DocScrutinizer05> MIPI? as in SSI/HSI, camera, that crap?
<ds2> that and the display
<ds2> IIRC, the N900 uses MIPI for the display
<uhhimhere> ds2: which shelf?
<DocScrutinizer05> there are crappy specs publicly available. There are linux drivers available, there are application notes / schematics available
<ds2> public app notes?
<ds2> official docs are lacking, IIRC unless that has change in the last year or so
<DocScrutinizer05> well, schematics, like BB, N900, etc
<ds2> ah. gotcha
<DocScrutinizer05> the display stuff of N900 will be what we use in Neo900 pretty much 100% cloned
<ds2> oh...not crossing the bridge when the N900 displays dry up?
<DocScrutinizer05> proto_v2 for testing this - among others
<ds2> 'k
<DocScrutinizer05> N900 displays are not that unique like they seem to be
<DocScrutinizer05> and there's a number of other displays people connected to OMAP3 successfully
<DocScrutinizer05> not suggesting we could use them in Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> just saying video bus isn't a miracle
<DocScrutinizer05> despite MIPI pita
<DocScrutinizer05> actually I think the OMAP TRM should have sufficient info to connect any compatible display to the SoC, without referencing to any unobtainium MIPI specs
<DocScrutinizer05> what really hurts is OMAP3's lack of a decent digital secondary video bus, for external video
<DocScrutinizer05> only this CVBS signal
<DocScrutinizer05> if it at least was RGB
<DocScrutinizer05> but noooo, they mix it chip-internal
<DocScrutinizer05> S-Video is as good as it gets with this stuff
<DocScrutinizer05> for anything beyond, we need to choose between internal and external display, mutually
<DocScrutinizer05> and in this dmain the chips we could use are really a PITA
<DocScrutinizer05> doman*
<DocScrutinizer05> dang
<DocScrutinizer05> digital video is infested with NDA and royalties
<DocScrutinizer05> and vaporware chips
<DocScrutinizer05> .
<DocScrutinizer05> o/ n8
<uhhimhere> ds2: so where can I buy a single non-allwinner SoC
<uhhimhere> which shelf
<DocScrutinizer05> digikey
<DocScrutinizer05> mouser
<DocScrutinizer05> arrow
<DocScrutinizer05> or, for the more recent ones, you need to find the subcontractors that got support by the big guys to build modules with the SoC
<DocScrutinizer05> you can't buy a OMAP5 chip, only modules
<uhhimhere> they only have FPGA modules
<uhhimhere> i dont want to build an arm core
<uhhimhere> i want say an OM3730 or whatever
<uhhimhere> thats what i mean ots
<uhhimhere> whatever youre talking about
<uhhimhere> where can i buy it
<uhhimhere> other than the allwinner
<DocScrutinizer05> http://www.ti.com/product/DM3730/samplebuy check the "Buy from authorized distributor" column
<uhhimhere> hey they got surplus units
<uhhimhere> cool
<DocScrutinizer05> https://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=dm3730&start=0&limit=10
<DocScrutinizer05> now n8
<uhhimhere> so what was ED complaining about on his website?
<uhhimhere> theyre obviously readily accessible
<DocScrutinizer05> *sigh*
<DocScrutinizer05> he wasn't looking for an OMAP3
<DocScrutinizer05> try find an OMAP5 and you might understand what's written on that page
<uhhimhere> so why isnt omap5 available ?
<DocScrutinizer05> >>They explained to me that in order to be able to use the Tegra, I need to let the hardware be designed and produced by a contracted partner [of their choice]. <<
uhhimhere has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Pali has joined #neo900
illwieckz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
kolp has joined #neo900
illwieckz has joined #neo900
arcean has joined #neo900
kolp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
phre4k has joined #neo900
uhhimhere has joined #neo900
<uhhimhere> so will the neo900 have the ability to put out hdmi?
<uhhimhere> just to save cables on both the a & v
<uhhimhere> so much easier to have just 1x output
<kerio> in all likelyhood, no
<uhhimhere> why not?
<uhhimhere> just wont fit into the theme of keeping it the same as the n900?
<kerio> because there's no digital video ut
<kerio> out
<uhhimhere> what would it take to have digital video out( i know this isnt even standard on newer phones but then again video out isnt even standard)
xes has joined #neo900
merlin1991 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
merlin1991 has joined #neo900
<sixwheeledbeast> Why have a digital out on a device with 800x480?
<uhhimhere> well the digital out res wouldnt be tied to the lcd input
<uhhimhere> it would be whatever the silicon could handle
<uhhimhere> and based on this : http://www.ti.com/product/dm3730
<uhhimhere> 720p
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-11 Sun 07:16:35] <DocScrutinizer05> what really hurts is OMAP3's lack of a decent digital secondary video bus, for external video
<DocScrutinizer05> ...
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-11 Sun 07:19:22] <DocScrutinizer05> for anything beyond, we need to choose between internal and external display, mutually
<uhhimhere> but i thought this wasnt an OMAP3 SoC/
<DocScrutinizer05> dunno what you thought
<uhhimhere> ok so the DM3730 is an OMAP 3
<uhhimhere> ok so youre saying neo900 doesnt have HDMI because it was decided that having to switch one off while the other is on is not acceptable?
<DocScrutinizer05> [2015-01-11 Sun 07:20:38] <DocScrutinizer05> and in this domain the chips we could use are really a PITA <DocScrutinizer05> digital video is infested with NDA and royalties
b1101 has joined #neo900
<uhhimhere> these guys seem to be able to get away with it at a $150 pricepoint : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCW_Zero
<uhhimhere> i know its not a phone
<uhhimhere> but its still a community sourced device
<DocScrutinizer05> so?
<uhhimhere> so what are they doing to keep royalties down
<uhhimhere> find that out and maybe it could be viable
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe you tell us?
<uhhimhere> lol ok so pride is the reason
<uhhimhere> fair enough
<kerio> wat
paulk-collins has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> http://www.ingenic.cn/en/?product/id/5.html
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry when i'm not interested in wasting more time on somebody who refuses to contribute
<uhhimhere> digital video is infested with NDA and royalties
<uhhimhere> so youre saying just by going with MIPS theyve manage tocircumvent royalties?
<uhhimhere> and NDAs?
<uhhimhere> come on
<DocScrutinizer05> I shared fine links to comprehensive dicussion and latest info on the topic. When you're not wlling to read, don't expect spoonfeeding
<DocScrutinizer05> and honestly I'm feeling like wasting my time
<uhhimhere> im just saying forwarding a 227 page thread as an answer isnt really an answer
<uhhimhere> how much more would the neo900 cost with HDMI out
<uhhimhere> from what youve said the issue is having to choose between the onscreen display and digital out
<uhhimhere> for the DM implementation
<uhhimhere> which i think is fine
<DocScrutinizer05> you're just saying that you're too lazy to read the very post and follow-ups dealing with exactly this topic, in an admittedly long thread. Sorry I'm out
<DocScrutinizer05> either that or your browser is too stupid to jump to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1405134#post1405134 instead of http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142
<DocScrutinizer05> either way, I'm out. I don't feel like taking bashing and offensive arguing
<DocScrutinizer05> with somebody who doesn't even care to find out what's DM3730
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry when I assume you're not, and prolly never will be, a customer of Neo900, since the device quite obviously isn't up to your requirements
<uhhimhere> what requirements i have an n900 and its a good device, always wished for it to have digital out
<uhhimhere> never thought it was that slow or anything especially since you could overclock it
<uhhimhere> and i am really excited for a neo900
norly has joined #neo900
SylvieLorxu has joined #neo900
<uhhimhere> DocScrutinizer05: alright i talked to the devs over at gcw and it seems none of them know anything about the hardware, everything was reverse engineered
<uhhimhere> they have no cad files etc
<uhhimhere> they just went to the factory said this is what we want and got a pcb prototyped
<uhhimhere> and btw i will buy it if it comes out
<uhhimhere> as long as everything about the hardware designs made open
<uhhimhere> cad schems etc
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
illwieckz has quit [Quit: Ça va couper chérie…]
illwieckz has joined #neo900
illwieckz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
illwieckz has joined #neo900
illwieckz has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Kabouik has joined #neo900
che1 has joined #neo900
illwieckz has joined #neo900
Openbot has joined #neo900
che11 has joined #neo900
che1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<Openbot> Just a wild idea : today i repaired a chineese tablet (mtk) and was surprised to find 2 cpu's inside though i am not sure about that as it might be a gpu but it was written mediatek as in soc's i see genrelly
Kabouik_ has joined #neo900
<Openbot> Is it a coprocesser compensating for somethimg or booster and can the neo have something like that
che11 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<Openbot> Kauboik_;)
<mvaenskae> Openbot: maybe a picture/part number would clear up what the chip was :)
<Openbot> \kabouik
<Openbot> \kabouik_
<Kabouik_> \Openbot.
<Openbot> Thanx ;)
<Openbot> Na i had little time to fix the speakers doused in oil :p
<Openbot> Mvaenskae^
<mvaenskae> Openbot: but now you have plenty, right? :D
<Openbot> It can be awsome if theres a second processor that can be used by apps videos if needed
<Openbot> Mvaenskae ? I didnt get that rephrase pls :)
<Openbot> Mvaenskae docscrutnizer05 can i /query you
<Openbot> Anybody i need help on my messed up irc acc
che1 has joined #neo900
sparetire_ has joined #neo900
<Openbot> Meh
<Openbot> I cant
<Openbot> Time tm query fire brigade
norly has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<Openbot> Done :D
Openbot has quit [Changing host]
Openbot has joined #neo900
Openbot has quit [Quit: used jmIrc]
pie_ has joined #neo900
pie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
freemangordon has joined #neo900
varu|zZz has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jwhitmore has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mvaenskae has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
MonkeyofDoom has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
MonkeyofDoom has joined #neo900
MonkeyofDoom has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
MonkeyofDoom has joined #neo900
b1101 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
b1101 has joined #neo900
varu|zZz has joined #neo900
nox- has joined #neo900
arcean has quit [Quit: Application terminated!]
MonkeyofDoom has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
MonkeyofDoom has joined #neo900
che1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Pali has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
SylvieLorxu has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in]
arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
arossdotme has joined #neo900
phre4k has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Oksana> Good morning. Did the 15 domesheets from Gerry arrive?
phre4k has joined #neo900
phre4k has quit [Client Quit]