00:07 <jonwil> so yeah the reason I have had zero time to do anything Neo900 as of late is because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_3 :)

02:30 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: random rant from #devuan: http://privatepaste.com/4fa6dde528

02:33 <DocScrutinizer05> >> Computers should do what I tell them to do. Not guess.<< couldn't agree more

02:34 <nox-> and wtf is an udeb?

02:37 <nox->
ACTION finds: Some core Debian packages are available as udebs (“micro debs”), and are typically used only for bootstrapping a Debian installation. Although these files use the udeb filename extension, they adhere to the same structure specification as ordinary deb files. However, unlike their deb counterparts, udeb packages contain only essential functional files.[2] In particular, documentation files are normally omitted. udeb packages are not in

02:37 <nox-> wtf

02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> hah, nice you love it :-)

02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I knew

02:46 <DocScrutinizer05> never heard of udebs as well, before

02:47 <DocScrutinizer05> and to make this lil quote even more interesting it's relevant for maemo packaging quite a lot (not udeb, but the "guess" part)

02:47 <nox-> heh

02:48 <nox-> at least theres no systemd...

02:48 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, but we'll not want to base on debian any further, since debian requires systemd now

02:49 <DocScrutinizer05> thus memo at large is at home at devuan, not debian, from now on. At least in my book of uneducated tales

02:50 <nox-> *nod*

02:55 <DocScrutinizer05> https://devuan.org/ >>The Devuan distribution will make an effort to improve the relationship with both upstream and downstream and, particularly in its gestational phase, will do its best to accomodate needs of those downstream distributions willing to adopt it as base. We look forward to statements of interest from such distributions, as well involvement in this planning phase.<< THIS is sth the real devels ( freemangordon, pali,

02:55 <DocScrutinizer05> all the CSSU peeps) and the council should take care about

02:56 <DocScrutinizer05> Oksana: ^^^

03:00 <Wizzup> if devuan takes off that is

03:01 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, https://devuan.org/newsletter_22dec.html

03:01 <Wizzup> read it, still not convinced

03:01 <Wizzup> you could also consider some other binary distros that share some idealogy. alpine linux is one I find interesting

03:01 <Wizzup> but probably not too useful

03:02 <Wizzup> I just run gentoo on everything, except the n900

03:03 <DocScrutinizer05> well, maemo is based on debian. You won't port it to any random other distro I guess, rather you want to use devuan instead of debian, since devuan is supposed to be "compatible" to debian

03:06 <Wizzup> I just hope the systemd hype is over soon

03:21 <DocScrutinizer05> too late

04:52 <Steven__> Will the Neo900 be able to run with the charger plugged in but the battery out? I'm not quire sure why the N900 requires it to be in... I guess you could do some load smoothing, but it seems like a weak reason.

04:56 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, Neo900 will be able to run from charger without battery. Except GSM which pulls current surges that the charger can not provide

04:57 <DocScrutinizer05> at least not guarantee

04:57 <Steven__> I see. Is that why the N900 requires the battery?

04:57 <DocScrutinizer05> err nope, N900 cannot operate without battery basically because of the way the charger chip works

04:57 <Steven__> I was considering putting a supercap with a sufficient voltage rating across the battery terminals.

04:58 <DocScrutinizer05> that *might* work

04:58 <DocScrutinizer05> 1F or somesuch should suffice

04:59 <DocScrutinizer05> you also need a 80kR on BSI

04:59 <Steven__> Does it draw from the battery at all while charging? If not, a lower capacitance might be sufficient.

05:00 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, the battery is needed for buffering the modem surges

05:02 <DocScrutinizer05> if you don't want to use modem, you may get away with less

05:03 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=57734 I ran N900 without battery for several hours

05:03 <DocScrutinizer05> but it's not possible to boot N900 without battery

05:04 <Steven__> Oh. I thought the hotswap hacks didn't give you more than about a minute (maybe that was something else)

05:04 <DocScrutinizer05> for booting however a 1000uF might suffice

05:05 <Steven__> Wouldn't you get into a catch-22 where you need a charged cap to boot, but you need to boot to charge the cap?

05:06 <Steven__> I think I have to read more to understand what it is doing...

05:09 <DocScrutinizer05> the charger chip bq24150 starts charging autonomously

05:09 <DocScrutinizer05> after testing if there's a battery

05:11 <jonwil> so I am still totally stuck with no way forward on any of the Neo900 stuff (and wouldn't be able to make progress even if I wasn't totally addicted to Fallout 3)

05:12 <Steven__> I noticed that in your post, but it also boots up to charge. I was under the impression that it required booting for some reason (it seemed silly that there would be no fallback, so what you are saying makes sense).

05:13 <DocScrutinizer05> note that it *stops* autonomous charging after ~30min, resp when "battery" voltage exceeds the charge termination voltage (some 3.5V) or the current drops below the charge end current (some 60mA iirc). That's the reason why you need to keep the backlight enabled while running without battery, or the charger chip will stop providing any energy when the device needs too low energy from it

05:14 <DocScrutinizer05> (fallback, boot to charge) the bq24150 only charges battery to a certain minimum voltage that's just sufficient to boot up the system

05:15 <Steven__> I don't understand why you would want to do that with a circuit. Wouldn't preferring to run off the charger if it was availible increase the lifespan of the battery?

05:16 <Steven__> Well, unless it is incapable of powering the system and charging the battery independently, but that would seem strange.

05:16 <DocScrutinizer05> under software control the chip provides the power needed to run the system and charge the battery to full

05:16 <DocScrutinizer05> but in autonomous mode it doesn't charge up the battery to full, it stops after 30 min and at ~3.5V

05:17 <Steven__> Ohh, so it expects BME to be there to take over.

05:17 <DocScrutinizer05> yes

05:17 <Steven__> But if you kill BME it acts like it is still there to take its place and you lose power when the battery is charged.

05:18 <MonkeyofDoom> DocScrutinizer05: wow, thanks for the info

05:18 <Steven__> Okay, I think I get it now.

05:18 <MonkeyofDoom> I had wondered what rules its behavior followed, just based on experience w/ empty batteries and so on

05:19 <DocScrutinizer05> well, not exactly. What happens is: system boots up, bootloader talks to the charger chip, thus terminating autonomous mode. Then linux boots up while charger chip stopped or soon will stop charging - unless BME takes over

05:19 <MonkeyofDoom> mm

05:19 <MonkeyofDoom> that checks out

05:21 <DocScrutinizer05> when you stop BME in a running system, the chip resets after 30s and enters autonomous mode and continues charging when it already been in charging mode before reset

05:21 <DocScrutinizer05> however when it not been in charging mode before reset, the system will blackout before the chip started charging again

05:21 <DocScrutinizer05> (all of the above assuming "without battery")

05:22 <Steven__> If we had open source BME then this probably wouldn't be a problem...

05:22 <DocScrutinizer05> this is no problem usually

05:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and we have good open source replacements for BME

05:23 <Steven__> What happens if you try to use the GSM without the battery? Overheated power chips, or system brownouts?

05:23 <DocScrutinizer05> starting with my draft and ShadowJK's charge12 script

05:24 <DocScrutinizer05> brownout

05:24 <DocScrutinizer05> the chip cannot overheat, it regulates the current

05:25 <DocScrutinizer05> depending on what the modem does, it might work or fail

05:25 <Steven__> I was hoping that I could both use the modem and keep the modifications inside the factory case... but I think 1F is a bit too big to fit anywhere that I can think of.

05:25 <Steven__> Unless I wanted to get rid of the speakers or something.

05:26 <DocScrutinizer05> there are several factors that determine the actual current surges the modem eats

05:26 <DocScrutinizer05> generally 2G is more pulsed and thus higher surges than 3G

05:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and the modem uses full TX power only when registering to a new cell, iirc

05:27 <Steven__> Ah. I have AT&T, so I only get 2.5G.

05:28 <DocScrutinizer05> the cell answers "don't shout! I hear you excellent. Please talk 14dBm lower"

05:28 <DocScrutinizer05> or whatever dB amount the cell thinks is OK

05:28 <DocScrutinizer05> depending on distance between modem and tower, etc

05:30 <DocScrutinizer05> the specs say that batt voltage must not drop more than ~100mV during the surges

05:30 <Steven__> Hmm, I wouldve thought that it would be better (more efficient) to start with a lower power and then work up until the tower answers.

05:30 <DocScrutinizer05> but that might not already "break modem's neck" when it's more than 100mV

05:31 <DocScrutinizer05> (ramp up power) would sort of work, but take much longer and thus cost more energy

05:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I suggest you just try what works for such buffer capacitor

05:33 <Steven__> Hmm.

05:33 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe a 4700uF work, maybe a 470 work too. I don't know

05:34 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe you need 0.47F

05:34 <Steven__> I am a bit reluctant to do that now without knowing what would happen to the hardware if it gets a brownout.

05:34 <Steven__> I *did* just get this phone for Christmas. =)

05:35 <DocScrutinizer05> not much. worst thing to happen is filesystem damage

05:35 <DocScrutinizer05> like on any other computer

05:35 <Steven__> I guess so, since there are no overvoltages or overcurrents involved.

05:36 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly

05:38 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway the Neo900 charger chip is waaay smarter. It can detect fastchargers of all commonly known types autonomously and provide power to the system without first testing for battery inserted

05:38 <DocScrutinizer05> thus you can boot up Neo900 without battery

05:39 <DocScrutinizer05> nd the chip will decently charge battery to full without any sw support

05:40 <DocScrutinizer05> and still you also can control it much the same way you can do with bq24150, if you want to

05:40 <Steven__> There are some fairly small caps in the millifarad range... I actually just ordered one to replace the clock battery. I could try one of those..

05:41 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, it's prolly too low voltage, no?

05:41 <DocScrutinizer05> you'd need two of them in series

05:42 <DocScrutinizer05> with two 10kR in parallel to the Cs, to balance charge between them. Not strictly mandatory but probably a smart idea

05:42 <Steven__> It actually appears to be two supercaps in a button-cell package.

05:43 <DocScrutinizer05> those supercaps are usually 3V or 3V3

05:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you woukd need to check the datasheet

05:44 <Steven__> Yes.

05:44 <Steven__> 3.3

05:44 <DocScrutinizer05> see? too low

05:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you need at least 4.5

05:44 <Steven__> Not for the clock battery. Oh, you are talking about the main battery.

05:45 <DocScrutinizer05> yes

05:45 <DocScrutinizer05> also those supercaps are usually very high ESR, like 100 Ohms

05:45 <Steven__> I think this is the one I bought: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PAS414HR-VG1/587-2157-1-ND/1959153

05:45 <DocScrutinizer05> IOW they cannot provide surges of 2A+

05:46 <Steven__> I would get a different one for the main battery.

05:46 <Steven__> Yeah. 80 ohm.

05:46 <Steven__> I seem to have lost my receipt document... damnit.

06:17 <Steven__> If you assume that you will get a 2A step for 50ms and you need your cap to drop no more than 100mV, then you need a cap of at least 100mF.

06:31 <Steven__> Hm, all of the small ones seem to have an ESR that is way too big. Well, I am going to take a break.

06:32 <Steven__> Thanks for the info Doc.

06:32 <Steven__> Goodnight everyone.

09:03 <kerio> "Also, I figured out why it was looking in the .znc subdirectory... systemd was caching the service and so changes made to /etc/init.d/znc had no effect."

09:03 <kerio> what a nice daemon

13:14 <Oksana> Gerry said two days ago that he is sending 'today' (a in, two days ago) 15 domesheets, and hoping to get the last one from Nokia next week.