DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900
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<phdeswer> Hi guys, any of you coming to FOSDEM with some open phone stuff?
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<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, due to health reasons me for sure not
<kerio> what happened? D:
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<ds2> did the need for custom cans ever get solved?
<DocScrutinizer05> custom cans? RF shielding? GTA04 was so good layout it passed all certs (CE et al) without those. If push comes to pull, there's a factory claiming to be able doing custom RF shielding cans by etching, in prototype quantities, some 30km from my home
<DocScrutinizer05> alternative: shielding spray to coat the inside of plastic case, should also help a lot for improved ESD prot
<ds2> okay. you have it undercontrol then
<ds2> came across a metal etching supplier who could do it in small quantities at a reasonable cost
<DocScrutinizer05> possibly same I found?
<ds2> unless you live in the US....
<DocScrutinizer05> nope
<ds2> this one is in Chicago, IL, USA
<ds2> their min. cost is roughly the order of what it would cost to do some 2L PCBs
<DocScrutinizer05> I'll happily aff their URL/contact-data to my bookmarks
<DocScrutinizer05> add*
<ds2> 1 min. let me find their card
<ds2> their business card is an etch peice of metal
<DocScrutinizer05> kerio: ((what happened)) physical breakdown, manifested in a quite recurring/chronic flu (plus side effects) which now is annoying me since 2.5 months
<DocScrutinizer05> ds2: ta
<ds2> no time to deal with the video output stuff yet
<ds2> too many CFP's to evaluate
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<DocScrutinizer05> ds2: you seen the killer fact that DVI etc all need more than the available 8 contacts total we can share to implement that video interface?
<ds2> yes
<DocScrutinizer05> k
<ds2> it also precludes HDMI :D
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<DocScrutinizer05> slimfoo etc would work but needs TWO complex chips since none of those chips takes parallel/serial input, they all need digital encoded input already
<ds2> i wonder if there are nice DSI to that 4 wire display protocol the automotive folks use
<ds2> nice chips that is
<DocScrutinizer05> I think - given 8pin restriction and the range of available external adapters and TV/monitor-inputs - VGA is our #1 candidate
<ds2> the automotive one keeps things digital, IIRC
<ds2> that way, it can be converted to whatever folks want
<DocScrutinizer05> "standard" digital video interfaces need more than 8 pins, Non-standard invariably needs a custom complex/active adapter
<DocScrutinizer05> it would be still acceptable to use a non-standard IF that nevertheless has commercioally available complex adapters, like slimbus(?) or MHL(?)
<ds2> no this is a standard that uses the USB mini connectors
<ds2> can't find the proper name for it :(
<DocScrutinizer05> but those need 2 chips in device, as explained above, plus they still need that active adapter even when such adapter is available
<DocScrutinizer05> s/Slimbus/SlimPort/
<ds2> FPD-Link II
<ds2> uses 2 wires for clock + data
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't know any monitor or TV that would offer such input
<ds2> it is used mostly for automotive
<ds2> but that signal can then be converted without quality loss to whatever digital format dejour
<DocScrutinizer05> for that it's great for sure
<ds2> I don't like VGA cuz it is analog and noise sensitive
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, 'only' needs a custom made active adapter
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 won't build such adapters
<ds2> side business... ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> for the max resolution Neo900 device can provide (800*720p iirc), VGA is just good enough. digital video is basically overkill
<DocScrutinizer05> on analog VGA noise will just cause a few percent of inferior quality. On digital interfaces, noise will cause 100% failure
<DocScrutinizer05> actually DM3730 calims to have improved CVBS signal quality compared to OMAP3530
<kerio> *too much noise
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders to put 'check GTA04 CVBS quality' on todo list
<ds2> when you show me a 720p or even a 800x480 CVBS display that doesn't look like crap....
<ds2> and that 800x480 must be visible pixels :P
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway Neo900 product feature specs: decent standard definition (PAL/NTSC) video, if feasible 800*720 (or higher) workstation static output, at minimum 20fps/RGB565
<kerio> checkerboard pattern
<DocScrutinizer05> I think there's no such thing like 720p CVBS. Is there?
<ds2> is isn't exactly a standard but...
<DocScrutinizer05> I mean, you can think of a CBS-alike signal that has 720 visoible horizontal lines
<ds2> its analog, you just toss in a few more lines before you do a vsync each time ;)
<ds2> but go fit that in the <6MHz BW :D
<DocScrutinizer05> yep. exactly. At higher H freq, since you want Vsync still be 50Hz
<DocScrutinizer05> or would you go 720p@25Hz then?
<ds2> let me put it another way... 800x525 then
<ds2> or "525p"
<ds2> show me what
<ds2> :D
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway H-freq/Hsync and pixel clock is insane
<ds2> there is no pixel clock
<DocScrutinizer05> virtually there is
<ds2> it is analog
<DocScrutinizer05> inside device there for sure is
<ds2> <-- refuses to look inside the magic black box ;)
<ds2> even the current "320x262" video looks like crap
<DocScrutinizer05> it doesn't make sense to employ a 30MHz DAC to output 30Mpixel per second on a signal path that has a max bandwidth of only 6MHz
<ds2> taking that senstance by itself, I'd argue, it does
<ds2> using a 30MHz DAC would make filtering a lot less nasty
<DocScrutinizer05> which filtering?
<ds2> the min. is a 12MHz DAC
<ds2> reconstruction filtering on the analog side
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm?
<ds2> with a 12MHz DAC, you're looking at near brickwall filters to prevent harmonics, etc
<ds2> think of this as reverse of an ADC
<DocScrutinizer05> why bother about harmonics?
<ds2> cuz things (and gov't agencies) get irked by them
<kerio> fuck the man
<DocScrutinizer05> meh, when the bus has a bandwidth of only 6MHz, why add a dedicated filter to do same?
<ds2> that sir, is why I will not be investing my $$
<DocScrutinizer05> no really, I won't lowpass-filter digital-to-analog video output signal
<ds2> *shrug* your call
<ds2> the good thing is this is a moot discussion as the DM3730 is doing this all inside the SoC
<DocScrutinizer05> the bus drivers themselves do enough of filtering
<ds2> but in general - the reason you do need to do it is - unless you want to be dealing with nice sine waves, the simpliest way to generate color burst is to use a square wave
<ds2> so something needs to chop off the harmonics
<ds2> or you risk things like them beating down and interfering
<DocScrutinizer05> sure, when the harmonics would reach any active/non-linear component
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm aware of the problems of beat-down/aliasing
<DocScrutinizer05> I just say we won't see any of that
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway, moot dicussion as you say
<ds2> with the DM3730, probally - if sw is setup right
<ds2> been spending time figuring out ways to generate a CVBS signal in SW
<DocScrutinizer05> and since no device I know of would accept a HSYNC@32kHz CVBS signal 720p, it's doubleplus-moot
<DocScrutinizer05> show me a TV that accepts 720p CVBS and I'll rethink
<ds2> :)
<DocScrutinizer05> VGA otoh accepts quite a wide range of different formats regarding VSYNC and HSYNC
<DocScrutinizer05> and yes, for VGA we will want proper signal shaping to avoid harmonics and overshooting etc
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<ds2> strictly speakimg, I'd disagree with that. but having said that, most modern monitors are multisync
<ds2> remember the X configs that were frying some monitors?
<DocScrutinizer05> yep, sure
<DocScrutinizer05> strictly speaking VGA is 640*480p@32kHz_HSYNC
<DocScrutinizer05> iirc
<ds2> with a fixed refresh rate
<DocScrutinizer05> but *all* monitors with "VGA" input nowadays (and since at least 10 years) can do pretty much arbitrary SYNc freq and resolutions
<ds2> aka the ones with the 13pin D connector for analog signals
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess the last momitor which escaped blue magic smoke from either deviation solenoid or H-driver died 20 years ago
<DocScrutinizer05> ugh, "deflection coil"
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how many true CRT monitors are still in use
* ShadowJK has a CRT on his desk
<DocScrutinizer05> WOW!
<ShadowJK> "Hyundai deluxscan 15G"
<DocScrutinizer05> EIZO? Sony?
<kerio> "true crt"?
<ShadowJK> eizo? sony? what?
<DocScrutinizer05> sort of tautological, kerio. Just most people nowadays know CRT acronym only for "some monitor, whatever technology"
<DocScrutinizer05> ShadowJK: those two were the most awesome CRT monitors available back when any CRT been available. So the idea been it's likely somebody would keep those, if any
<ShadowJK> it's mostly because I'm lazy
<DocScrutinizer05> :-D
<DocScrutinizer05> as long as it works ;-)
<ShadowJK> I've got a Sun monitor on floor next to desk
<ShadowJK> 21" or something, CRT
<ShadowJK> with weird Sun connector
<DocScrutinizer05> yay
<ShadowJK> Sun Sparcstation 5
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, exhausted, back to curing flu
<DocScrutinizer05> o/
<ShadowJK> ANd Sun .. something or other, 800Mhz CPU with 1.5G ram
<ds2> Mmmmm hypersparcS?
<ShadowJK> doesn't talk to the Sun monitor though :-(
<ShadowJK> Yes, the SS5 is Hypersparc
<ds2> oh the pizza boxes
<ds2> cg6 video?
<ShadowJK> Want it? Come get it, it' s free
<ShadowJK> iirc cg5? is there such a thing? nfi
<ds2> no, I have an ultra5
<ds2> cg5 is old, IIRC. cg6 was the standard
<ShadowJK> I'll throw in a case of beer
<ds2> hehehehe
<ShadowJK> Also got a Netra :P
<ds2> only if you will take the ss2 off my hands in trade ;)
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<ShadowJK> lol
<ShadowJK> no
<ds2> netra is a SS5 in shoebox formfactor like the javastations, right?
<ShadowJK> The SS5 and its monster monitor actually served in modern times
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<ShadowJK> The Netra is a 1U thing with a 400Mhz CPU and 2 x 20 GB SCSI hard drives, iirc
<ds2> is it 19" wide or merely 6"?
<ShadowJK> hm?
<ShadowJK> It comes with thumb screw rack mount things
<ds2> Oh
<ShadowJK> And fits nicely in rack, if I'd have one
<ds2> must be thinking of something else
<ds2> there was something else also in the same shoebox formfactor as a javastation
<ShadowJK> I'm not familiar with javastation
<ShadowJK> Though SS5 is slightly narrower than rack, I guess
<ds2> that's a real SS5. but they moved thigns around to make it shoebox sized
<ShadowJK> It's rather amusing how SS5, the first time I encountered it, in the day of Pentium 600, was quieter than PCs
<ShadowJK> Nowadays it's a monster :D
<ds2> it was??
<ShadowJK> yeah
<ds2> you must have some noisy PCs
<ShadowJK> SS5 was a "wait, computers can be this quiet?!" experience for me
<ShadowJK> Plus, the 10krpm HD made more impressive noise than the 7.2krpm of PCs
<ds2> hahahaha
<ds2> SSA's and netapps!
<ShadowJK> Walking into the room full of SS5s at Uni was a more awesome experience than walking into the room of 20 Pentium-II 500 :)
<kerio> SS5?
<ShadowJK> SparcStation 5
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<ds2> StarShip5
<ShadowJK> :)
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<kerio> according to wikipedia, pizza-box form factor is a thing
<ds2> the last chance for a peaceful computing
<ShadowJK> By modern metrics, the SS5 was noisier. By the metrics of the day, the Linux room filled with P2-500 was like stepping onto the deck of an aircraft carrier filled with WW2 planes. The SS5 room was like stepping onto the desck of an aircraft carrier filled with F-18
<ShadowJK> Also, all the "makes teacher look clueless" coders always sat in the SS5 room
<ds2> all the SS5's I worked with was on people's desks
<ds2> SS5's was for the interns and no bodies
<ShadowJK> There was also an Ultrasparc room, but I don't remember much of it
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<kerio> i notice that my laptop's doing something heavy when the fans become audible :3
<ds2> you don't do make -j99 daily?
<kerio> i don't
<kerio> because i don't have a 99-core cpu
<ds2> i usually do about 3x the cores I have
<DocScrutinizer05> beowulf
<kerio> ds2: including hyperthreading
<kerio> ?
<ds2> yes
<ds2> gcc seems to have a lot fo dead time otherwise
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<DocScrutinizer05> well, depending on ratio of total computational grunt of all CPU cores vs speed of storage IO you want sufficient overprovision of active processes so there's always a process not waiting for IO for every available core
<DocScrutinizer05> note however that swap is also storage IO
<ds2> gcc seems to do IO-Compute-IO....
<DocScrutinizer05> I think every process does ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> that's why you use time sharing multitasking :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> particularly in -j
<ds2> yep
<ds2> hence oversubscribing helps
<ds2> though, memory is a major constraint. swapping sucks ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> swapping mostly defeats the purpose of increasing compile speed, when increasing -j beyond the limit that RAM allows. Unless swap is significantly faster than "ordinary" IO
<DocScrutinizer05> calculating the right parameter for -j option is very complex - otherwise there would already exist a "-j auto-optimum" option ;-)
<ds2> machine learning to the rescue
<ds2> -j autolearn ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> though I think nowadays -j should probably default to "<cores> * 2", not to "1"
<DocScrutinizer05> but changing defaults is always a nasty thing to do
<kerio> there's no default for -j
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, it defaults to "no -j"
<DocScrutinizer05> which is similar to "-j1" aiui
<DocScrutinizer05> aka "no multi-job"
<ds2> there are poorly done makefiles where anything other then -j1 fails
<kerio> nethack and variants :c
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