<wpwrak>
first then laugh about devuan, then they fight devuan, then devuan wins :)
<MonkeyofDoom>
does devuan have something *better* than systemd?
<MonkeyofDoom>
or do they just not have systemd
<Oksana>
They do not have bloated I-am-Everything. They have separate thingies: init system, daemons, whatever. Just, not tying everything into one package.
<MonkeyofDoom>
right--do they have a good init system?
<wpwrak>
it's nice and easy. the problem is more in how it's often used. but i think they may want to look at openrc later on. that's what gentoo uses, which alone pretty much guarantees that it's in the traditional spirit :)
<MonkeyofDoom>
lots of systems are easy
<MonkeyofDoom>
the problem is that it's incredibly inefficient and that it's flexible in the wrong places
<MonkeyofDoom>
a pile of shell scripts is great for one-off jobs but for core system management something that does more to guarantee correctness and allow people to work on a high-level is a pretty good idea
<wpwrak>
i doubt systemd is noticeably more efficient than a well-written sysvinit-based system
<wpwrak>
well, write a checker if you want such assurances
<MonkeyofDoom>
a checker that parses shell scripts and performs static analysis?
<wpwrak>
by the time systemd runs it's too late to report problems anyway :)
<MonkeyofDoom>
if I were to implement something with those properties I would *not* go off and start writing shell scripts :P
<Oksana>
Great! No need to lock yourself down to one thing. Be it systemd or sysVinit. Look for alternatives, always :P
<wpwrak>
i guess i'd use perl for the tricky bits :)
<wpwrak>
anyway, the main concern about systemd is not the choice of language for the core functionality but that it does a gazillion other things that have nothing to do with being a good "init"
<MonkeyofDoom>
wpwrak: I agree systemd does seem to grow tentacles
<MonkeyofDoom>
just I don't think "the old 1970s way is perfect" is right either
<wpwrak>
and tolkien taught us what to do with items that aim to rule over everything ... :)
<MonkeyofDoom>
write books about them!
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wpwrak>
devuan, paperback edition. all the punch cards :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
devuan is about _my_ freedom to choose the possibly inferior init system, not getting forcefed a supposedly best systemd and if my system doesn't match the usecase I can go f* myself (quoting words to the effect of Poettering). It's not only system init, systemd comes with a truckload of dependencies and already hijacked stuff like network management and udev and FHS-conforming /usr/ volume
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I strongly disagree an init system shall "manage resources"
<SylvieLorxu>
DocScrutinizer05: That's literally the worst part about systemd: It actively attacks freedom of choice. Normally, you could just switch tools if one didn't work, but systemd is changing that to a "you're screwed" scenario
<DocScrutinizer05>
an init system shall start resource managers
<SylvieLorxu>
Is it the worst part? It's one of the many, I suppose
<DocScrutinizer05>
SylvieLorxu: exactly
<SylvieLorxu>
But yeah, I'm excitedly waiting for Devuan, want to upgrade to that, instead of to the latest Debian
<SylvieLorxu>
My customers deserve better than software that is collecting CVEs like trophies
<DocScrutinizer05>
nor b) have they shown there's actually a particular need to do such massive refacturing, and c) their plans for future of Linux (http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html) are explicitly not in line with what any sane tech savvy user would expect Linux to be
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't want a Linux that tries to be a me-too Android or even windows
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't want app shops
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and I don't want sealed distros that follow a teke-it-or-leave-it approach and don't allow any configuration except when done by the distro maintainers
<DocScrutinizer05>
take*
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<SylvieLorxu>
DocScrutinizer05: I think Poettering should just buy a Mac instead :x
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm absolutely sure he already has one
<SylvieLorxu>
Like most of the GNOME devs, I guess...
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<arossdotme>
why do the gnome devs like systemd?
<Humpelstilzchen>
arossdotme: when was the last time you used gnome?
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>The toolbox approach of classic Linux distributions is fantastic for people who want to put together their individual system [... However] you frequently do your work based on complete system images [...] The current Linux distributions are not particularly good at providing for this major use-case of Linux [...] is incompatible with what many system vendors want.<<
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<DocScrutinizer05>
do *YOU* want a linux that's tailored to meet the needs of system vendors?
<DocScrutinizer05>
let me summarize: >>One of the major usecases of Linux is to allow system vendors to sell sealed non-configurable Linux based systems<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW stuff like Tivo, Android, even iOS
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: btrfs subvolumes are so fucking awkward to deal with
<kerio>
it's not even funny
<kerio>
how one plans to make them the basis of the supreme packaging system is beyond me
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<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly the reason why I think the systemd cabal has no savvy system architects, neither sufficient "pragmatism" that comes with experience
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, either that or they bent over to what the spin doctors way up in RedHat hierarchy ordered them to build
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<bencoh>
19:37 < SylvieLorxu> DocScrutinizer05: I think Poettering should just buy a Mac instead :x
<DocScrutinizer05>
then they actually did an excellent job, pretty much disguising what's the ultimate destiny of Linux RH flavor
<bencoh>
That's what h's been told for years :)
<SylvieLorxu>
DocScrutinizer05: BUT THEY NEED TO SUPPORT SO MANY USE CASES (except yours because fuck you I guess)
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<SylvieLorxu>
But yeah, Poettering is delusional
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<SylvieLorxu>
Maybe, if Linux was so useless, it wouldn't have become the most-used system ever?
<bencoh>
most-used ?
<SylvieLorxu>
bencoh: Smartphones, tablets, servers, supercomputers, etc., etc.
<bencoh>
I guess you need to be more specific about the market
<SylvieLorxu>
IT altogether, the complete image
<bencoh>
phones/tablets are androstuff ;)
<SylvieLorxu>
On desktop it's obviously not the most-used
<SylvieLorxu>
Android is Linux
<bencoh>
yeah sure, but not exactly ;)
<kerio>
to be fair
<kerio>
i installed openbsd on a VM recently
<kerio>
i literally just pushed "enter" a bunch of times and answered like two questions
<kerio>
and it worked
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<DocScrutinizer05>
that's not a criterion
<DocScrutinizer05>
every decent Linux distro installer nowadays works this way
<DocScrutinizer05>
the question is: does it allow easy config changes *after* (or during) you installed the default image
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<DocScrutinizer05>
are you free to choose your desktop, your init system, your filesystem etc
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<sixwheeledbeast>
The Linux kernel is widely used yes.
<DocScrutinizer05>
how many tweaks/patches do standard linux package sources need to compile and work on such system?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, installing Android to a SG is a matter of ... prolly not even pushing a button, you just insert a CD into your windows PC and hook up the phone via USB, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
but does Android allow you to do any of the changes mentioned above? No
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<DocScrutinizer05>
you need cyanogen mod since not even experienced linux admins have a way to understand how to "root" an android system
<DocScrutinizer05>
is this what you want to get served by Poettering and & co to you for your desktop PC, and - when you're lucky - for your server. And no way to port the system to e.g. a Neo900 since it would take dozens of man-years to port the stuff?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since it takes lots of work, devuan already started *doing* that work
<DocScrutinizer05>
...right now, when it's still feasible to implement and support an alternative to such "closed" system that doesn't give you a choise
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB you could use systemd even on devuan. It's just that devuan adds freedom of choice to the picture. On other systemd infested distros you MUST use systemd
<Humpelstilzchen>
My debian still doesn't have systemd...
<sixwheeledbeast>
I can't see why it isn't left for you to choose your init system on debian
<Humpelstilzchen>
sixwheeledbeast: you still can choose it on debian
<sixwheeledbeast>
Humpelstilzchen: in the future, to avoid the whole devuan situation
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: daemons started at boot time are just lines appended to /etc/rc.conf.local :3
<kerio>
er, /etc/rc.local
<Humpelstilzchen>
sixwheeledbeast: you probably still can...my guess is only when e.g. using gnome or kde that systemd is required.
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: no srsly install openbsd in a VM
<kerio>
it's super fun
<DocScrutinizer05>
Humpelstilzchen: you're mistaken on that. Systemd comes with such an awesome trucjload of dependencies, you will have a 70% system when you rip out systemd. You need to fix *a lot* of stuff to make your system work without systemd, and that's exactly what devuan does
<DocScrutinizer05>
just think automounter and udev
<DocScrutinizer05>
and there's quite a bit more than those, which systemd hijacked
<sixwheeledbeast>
Yep that was what I thought too. before systemd turned into a huge systemmetaball you could have a "shim" to satisfy systemd dependences without using it as an init sys. Like Ubuntu does at the moment.
<Humpelstilzchen>
if the day comes where something popular like apache or openssh depends on systemd I'm gonna grab some popcorn
<edwin1>
it probably indirectly does via libpam-systemd
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, as little "required" as the engine for a car is. You're free to built a steam engine and power your car with that one
<DocScrutinizer05>
the question is: *can* you do that?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or isn't it rather the case that your options are limited to what's available and supported on the market?
<edwin1>
right now I can still get away without systemd as pid 1 with systemd-shim + cgmanager + systemd, but it still runs systemd-logind
<DocScrutinizer05>
and there are sound claims that "cars would be better off if 100 years ago the choice had been for steam engines instead of combustion engines"
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin1: there's hope: devuan
<edwin1>
I know about it, will wait and see
<edwin1>
since you don't have to login to a desktop on a phone, hopefully logind or its equivalent won't be needed on neo900 :)
<Humpelstilzchen>
edwin1: hmm I still login on my desktop with a systemd process..
<edwin1>
Humpelstilzchen: yeah I have it too, systemd-logind
<Humpelstilzchen>
edwin1: whatever this is, I don't have it installed
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin1: openfremantle will not have any systemd garbage. I'm pretty sure SHR also won't go systemd path of doom. Our factory test and board support system will be based on devuan
<DocScrutinizer05>
we can't use a system for factory test that considers complete system log corruption after inregular system shutdown a non-issue
<edwin1>
indeed, no journald pls
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we'll appreciate simplicity and ease of use of a system-v init
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin1: ((Debian is still responsive to bugreports)) the problem is: they seem to have stopped listening to complaints of people who want another init system than systemd
<edwin1>
btw it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be open to a better init system, as long as it is *better* and *not* systemd. I wouldn't mind runit as in http://www.voidlinux.eu/#features for example
<DocScrutinizer05>
as I said above: there's nothing immanently bad with improving the way linux works, as long as you keep freedom of choice
<edwin1>
yep
<sixwheeledbeast>
I agree with that, freedom is why many use Linux in the first place.
<edwin1>
hmm the block diagram for neo900 keeps turning up interesting pieces. Do I read it correctly that there will be dual SIM support? (multiplexed, not both on at same time)
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the dual SIM. Alas the modem module doesn't support dual-standby
<DocScrutinizer05>
yet?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we implement the hardware in a way so a modem firmware update *could* enable such dual-standby though
<DocScrutinizer05>
we can't force Gemalto to do such augmented firmware, but of course we will push and hope :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the modem in fact has GPIO pins that could get used to control the mux
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<edwin1>
the passive mode/switching from software would still work without that update?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know if the modem internally has all the needed resources (ability to backup DSP and other registers to RAM, enough RAM to run two concurrent radio stack processes), but the application interface (~= hw pinout) has all it needs to support DSDS
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, you can switch SIMs under control of APE
<DocScrutinizer05>
for now my basically logiing out modem from one network, switching SIM and then logging in modem again, to the new network under new IMSI
<edwin1>
yeah probably too battery hungry to do that automatically
<DocScrutinizer05>
for now by* logging* out
<edwin1>
but better than manually swapping
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's not an issue of energy needed. It's the problem that modem loses the temporary ID it gets assigned when logging in to a network
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<DocScrutinizer05>
you cannot 'boot' the modem into a still active registration and resume it
<edwin1>
ah so probably quite time consuming as well to search®ister
<DocScrutinizer05>
the trick with DSDS is the time sharing where modem does _not_ drop the login to either of both networks
<DocScrutinizer05>
it just takes maybe a second or two longer until the modem answers whatever inbound request from network
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<DocScrutinizer05>
since the network - when it sends e.g. an INVITE (inbound call) in vain - just repeats the same request several times
<ds2>
sounds very battery friendly :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
when the modem forgets that it is #12345 currently and logs in again, asking for a new temporary ID that might them be #34567, any repeating requests to #12345 will fail eventually and never succeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
time multiplex is about resume operation, not start over of operation
<DocScrutinizer05>
lemme put it this way: modem is a state machine that is controlled by network (among other), and re-login resets the state of the state machine since it loses all internal data defining the state
<DocScrutinizer05>
(lamost all, serving cell is stored to persistent storage on SIM to speed up relogin time by reducing the effort to find the channel of a valid cell/station)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
or, more colloquially, modem on logout left the party, and when it returns it needs to buy a new entrance ticket
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter if the party host (network) noticed modem leaving the party or not (regular logout or brute force shutdown), in any case to enter a new ticket is needed
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly since modem lost the old ticket when shutting down
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<DocScrutinizer05>
while real DSDS is like joining two parties that happen in adjacent gardens and modem just jumps over the fence from one into the other every 2 seconds - until somebody talks to it at one of both parties so it stays there until the conversation finished, then resumes hopping over the fence back and forth
<edwin1>
got it
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<edwin1>
the ambient light sensor ... does it just measure intensity, or RGB/XYZ color?
<quatrox>
DocScrutinizer05: after reading about systemd, I cannot believe anybody actually wants it. I wonder how much money RedHat will loose if they go for systemd only
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<arcean>
quatrox: isn't it already in RHEL7?
<kerio>
quatrox: it's already in RHEL, it's in debian sid
<kerio>
i think it's in arch
<quatrox>
isn't arch all about freedom of choice and control?
<kerio>
i think arch is about using the most recent software possible
<kerio>
freedom of choice and control is gentoo i guess
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<quatrox>
Gentoo is actually my favorite distro
<quatrox>
hmm... I guess I have to switch to Gentoo on all my computers. The only pain is to optimize the kernel config for each of my (way too many) computers.
<kerio>
or you could just switch to openbsd
<DocScrutinizer05>
edwin1: the ALS probes two bands: IR and <visble+IR>
<kerio>
literally banned from hacking competitions because it's too secure
<kerio>
Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!
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<quatrox>
kerio: I have thought about it. Maybe I will install openbsd on my laptop and keep GNU/Linux on the rest.
<Wizzup>
kerio: that slogan is silly
<Wizzup>
Considering they have weird definitions of 'remote holes'
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<kerio>
?
<Wizzup>
Translated: they've had much more problems but somehow choose not to count them as remote holes
<kerio>
because... they're not?
<kerio>
i dunno, give me an example
<quatrox>
that is the same with Linux
<quatrox>
Because every bug can potentially be a security bug, it is hard to group the bugs into security bug vs non-security bug
<DocScrutinizer05>
-3 -2 were about infobot, -1 about freenode network status
<DocScrutinizer05>
yoh, this time it accepted the kill cmd
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-01-16 Fri 00:21:41] [Notify] infobot is online (chat.freenode.net).
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<DocScrutinizer05>
~wb
<infobot>
It's great to be back!
<DocScrutinizer05>
now only dos1 needs to authenticate ;)
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<bencoh>
looks like he chose to leave instead :>
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<dos1>
seems like znc got into some weird state, so I just restarted it :P
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<dos1>
hmm, or maybe that was freenode actually
<quatrox>
dos1: it looked like freenode did another rehub and then disconnecting everybody
<dos1>
yeah, and NickServ is still not responding
<quatrox>
ohh.. I didn't even notice that
<Oksana>
((NickServ is still not responding)) ? I identified myself just recently, after freenode re-connect
<bencoh>
same here (just identified)
<quatrox>
Usually my client do the identification automatically, but this time it failed 3 times and gave up. When I tried now (manually), it worked
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<Oksana>
Good morning!
<quatrox>
Good morning, Oksana
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<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-01-16 Fri 00:33:27] <quatrox> dos1: it looked like freenode did another rehub and then disconnecting everybody
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-01-16 Fri 00:33:58] [Notice] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi all. Yes, it seems we erred with a firewall rule there. Everything should be back to normal now.
<quatrox>
I saw that one minute after I sent that message