ec changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #
<micahjohnston> joelteon: for system prefs
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: oh interesting
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: i have a bit of family in alaska
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: oh yeah? Which part?
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: it's a huuge state
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: My guess is: The Valley
<micahjohnston> i have no idea, sorry :p
<micahjohnston> it's one of my dad's literally 13 siblings
<joelteon> ok that was easy
<joelteon> and by that i mean it was hard
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: I'd like to say I know what you mean, but I actually have no clue at all
<jesusabdullah> hahaha
<alexgordon> my experience of religious people is limited to the bitching people do on /r/atheism
<alexgordon> london and utah could not be more disparate
<jesusabdullah> hahaha
<micahjohnston> i went through an r/atheism phase
<micahjohnston> i like to think i've transcended that
<micahjohnston> joelteon: what was hard?
<micahjohnston> fixing monitor thing?
<joelteon> making my laptop realize it was not connected to anything
<alexgordon> in many ways /r/atheism is right, it's just that their method of dealing with religion (focus on it as much as possible) is rather counterproductive
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: "faces of atheism" isn't right, it's just laughable
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: what's faces of atheism?
<micahjohnston> everybody uploaded pictures of their face
<micahjohnston> and put some retarded quote on it
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<micahjohnston> yeah, I guess they're "right" a lot
<micahjohnston> but they're wrong about being confrontational
<micahjohnston> which is I guess what you said
<alexgordon> lol
<alexgordon> yes
<micahjohnston> but I think, for instance, Hitch is very wrong about saying "religion poisons everything"
<micahjohnston> because religion can do both good and bad things
<micahjohnston> so it's not always bad
<alexgordon> I dunno
<alexgordon> is it?
<alexgordon> I'm willing to accept it's not at fault 100% of the time
<alexgordon> but doing good things is harder
<micahjohnston> well for instance I think
<micahjohnston> taking away religion but not replacing it with education could have a bad effect on people's behavior
<micahjohnston> I'M GONNA TAKE SOCIOLINGUISTICS FOR MY DIVERSITY REQUIREMENT
<jesusabdullah> I think there's some truth to the ideas that religions as memes are quite viral, and that there are some bad ideas that come with many religions
<alexgordon> I think what hitch said anyway, is that any good religious people do can and is done more efficiently by secularists
<jesusabdullah> but that it doesn't matter if someone is a good person and make good actions
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: well there was a good question somebody said
<micahjohnston> if you were approached in an alley at night by a group of teens
<jesusabdullah> so I'm not really out to end religion, or convince all my friends they should be militant atheists or anything
<micahjohnston> would you feel more safe had they just come from a bible study class
<jesusabdullah> but I would very much like my friends to tolerate my OWN lack of belief
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: right, I like that
<jesusabdullah> and my behaviors which The Pope, or Brigham Young or what have you, might have disapproved of
<jesusabdullah> but which from a libertarian standpoint are either neutral or only harmful to myself
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: as someone who was not long ago such a teen, I'd say no. I wouldn't feel *more* safe
<jesusabdullah> "oh shit a roving gang of mormon teens! Quick, hide before they prostelytize to you!"
<alexgordon> because the vast majority of teens in dark alleys are harmless
<jesusabdullah> "Hi there I'm Elder Young" "oh, uhh, hi"
<alexgordon> the only reason that "works" is that you're giving more information from them
<alexgordon> for example
<jesusabdullah> thing is, those kids are usually very nice and professional, so you feel kinda douchey about it
<alexgordon> "If you were approached in an alley at night by a group of teens, would you feel more or less safe knowing they'd come from math class?"
<alexgordon> now, can we surmise from this that math improves morals?
<jesusabdullah> whereas that fire and brimstone southern baptist preacher with all the "mormons are cultists" and "you're all going to Hell" signs?
<jesusabdullah> Don't feel too bad ditching that guy at all
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: and yeah sure, a philosophy or math class would be just as comforting as a bible study class
<micahjohnston> but that's beside the point
<micahjohnston> that just means that religion doesn't have a *negative* effect in that case
<alexgordon> point is, it's unfair to compare one situation with more information vs one situation without any information
<jesusabdullah> what if it was a bible class taught by the Westboro Baptists?
<jesusabdullah> I'd feel less safe
<jesusabdullah> XD
<micahjohnston> well yeah
<micahjohnston> lol
<purr> lol
<jesusabdullah> I went to Mormon church a few times
<jesusabdullah> with a mormon friend
<micahjohnston> it's the most boring church you can go to probably
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: do you know they have bible study classes in prison? prisoners are often quite religious
<jesusabdullah> as an aside, the kid became a waste of skin.
<jesusabdullah> but that's an aside!
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: they also have math classes
<alexgordon> indeed
<alexgordon> just goes to prove my point :P
<jesusabdullah> but the church was pretty friggin' normal I thought
<jesusabdullah> actually fairly pleasant, they're more interested in feeling God's glory than they are about guilting you
<alexgordon> the only reason you would feel less safe, is because you don't *know* where they've come from
<jesusabdullah> sunday school was interesting, lots of stuff about like
<jesusabdullah> Zion or something
* micahjohnston finishes his bowl of cherry ice cream
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: hm yeah like missouri?
<alexgordon> so you are at an information deficit
<jesusabdullah> only weird part was during prayer I was like, "who the fuck is Joseph Smith??"
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: well if you know they've come from like
<alexgordon> if you add information, then you can narrow down whether you feel more, or less safe
<micahjohnston> doing gang related activities
<micahjohnston> lolol
<alexgordon> right
<micahjohnston> but even like
<micahjohnston> if they just came from a club or some shit
<micahjohnston> you'd feel less safe than a bible class
<alexgordon> well yes they're more likely to come from a club indeed
<alexgordon> and I would feel less safe in that case
<alexgordon> but that's beside the point :P
<alexgordon> the point is, if you get more information, you can make more accurate predictions
<jesusabdullah> also my mormon friends' family was secretly polygamist so there were some interesting dynamics going on there
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: oh haha wow
<micahjohnston> was this like
<jesusabdullah> yeah well like, you know how having two wives can lead to "favorite wife" issues
<micahjohnston> official COJCOLDS
<micahjohnston> or
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: yeah sounds awful
<jesusabdullah> His dad was known around the town as "
<jesusabdullah> "Ron the Stallion"
<alexgordon> Ron Jeremy?
<micahjohnston> oh god
<jesusabdullah> lol inorite?
<purr> lol
<joelteon> ron jeremy is a mormon?
<jesusabdullah> nono, Ron ANDERSON
<jesusabdullah> the ANDERSONS
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: anyway, I'm still not convinced hitchens was very wrong, or even slightly wrong
<jesusabdullah> (and Betsy the "nanny")
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: religion made things better in that specific case
<micahjohnston> in that in can have a positive effect on behavior
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: no, information made things better
<micahjohnston> sure, so can education
<micahjohnston> but religion can motivate people to do good things
<micahjohnston> as well as bad
<jesusabdullah> here's the thing, beliefs in general may or may not inform actions
<micahjohnston> so it's just another neutral thing in the stew of humanity
<jesusabdullah> so religion comes with a big box of beliefs
<jesusabdullah> and so does education
<jesusabdullah> the thing is, which of these beliefs and tenets end up informing actions?
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: the test is not whether religion is better than a complete lack of education, it's whether religion is better than any other type of education (and other type of education aren't as destructive as religion)
<jesusabdullah> Like, if you learn some science and take it to be true, you almost definitely take it into account when deciding to do something day-to-day
<alexgordon> if you go to church, then you're spending some time educating yourself in whatever brand of bullshit they teach there
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: well obviously there are better things than religion
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: but religion isn't solely negative, is the point
<joelteon> yeah, it's not SO harmful that it's useless
<jesusabdullah> I'm trying to think of a good example here in terms of education informing action but I'm derping here
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: but this misses the point that if we didn't have religion, we could replace it with education instead
<jesusabdullah> Maybe this: You believe that you can experimentally figure something out, and that if you observe an effect from a cause consistently than your observation is probably accurate
<jesusabdullah> and day-to-day, you run into something you don't understand, you can use that process to figure out how it works
<jesusabdullah> now, in bible study and such
<jesusabdullah> you may learn that God doesn't like gays, and that informs your actions when you vote, or find out your friend is gay, or something like that
<jesusabdullah> and that's not so good
<jesusabdullah> OR, you may learn it, and on some level hold the belief, but have it compartmentalized such that you still have gay friends, etc.
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: yes, arguing that we need religion because it has good effects is the broken window fallacy
<jesusabdullah> but like, you can also learn that God wants you to treat people with respect, and the informed action is reasonably good, even if you can learn that same lesson through other means
<jesusabdullah> Too out of focus to take all that babble to a logical conclusion, hopefully you guys can connect the dots :)
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: I think the reason this is difficult is because religion is so varied. It's impossible to have a conversation about religion in general, though you can easily take specific religions to pieces
<jesusabdullah> Here's an interesting one
<jesusabdullah> Hinduism and castes
<alexgordon> I'd say that there is not a single religion on earth, that is not bad
<jesusabdullah> in India, the caste system is more or less dissolved
<alexgordon> but I would have to go through each one
<jesusabdullah> the president of India is from the "untouchables" caste
<alexgordon> I can't argue that based on "religion" in general
<jesusabdullah> but my understanding is that the caste system is somewhat central to Hinduism
<jesusabdullah> Basically, you can be as religious as you want as long as we can play some video games, you're okay with me drinking beers and look the other way when I smoke a doob on the back porch
<jesusabdullah> Deal? :D
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: r u a tree
<micahjohnston> :o
<alexgordon> yes, or in other words: I don't care if you believe in string theory as long as you don't force it on me too
<alexgordon> individual beliefs are harmless, the trouble is that a number of people who hold the same belief gain power they can abuse to make like harder for other people
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: if you mean, "are you concerned that you'll have trouble buying and smoking cannabis without getting arrested or ostracised by your neighbors?", then yes
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: you live in SFBay, that happens to you
<jesusabdullah> k bbl
<alexgordon> e.g., there's quite a few people in France (and the UK) who don't want to see gay marriage (two very irreligious countries). The belief is not completely based on religion - yet it is destructive nonetheless
<jesusabdullah> indeed
<jesusabdullah> I have to wonder if these people have ever had gay friends
<jesusabdullah> cause, like
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: was just meaning do you smoke :p
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: yes
<alexgordon> the problem is religion is mainly that it gets its beliefs from 1000+ years ago
<alexgordon> so it's very entrenched, and the beliefs are very out of date
<jesusabdullah> alexgordon: by that standard the mormons are relatively progressive no?
<alexgordon> jesusabdullah: haha they're still christians though :P
<alexgordon> tbh moral standards didn't really improve until after the second world war
<alexgordon> the WWII is in some ways one of the best things to happen to humanity
<alexgordon> which seems very wrong to say
<alexgordon> in a few decades, everybody who died in it would be dead anyway. But we will still be feeling the benefits its had to human compassion and morality. Now there's a question to ponder: was WWII mainly good or mainly bad?
<micahjohnston> hi
<purr> micahjohnston: hi!
<joelteon> so
<joelteon> TIL you can catch exceptions thrown by the error function in haskell
<joelteon> so i'm pretty stupid
<micahjohnston> well that's the gross part of haskell
<micahjohnston> :p
<joelteon> yeah well exceptions are pretty hard
<micahjohnston> JUST USE MAYBE AND EITHER EVERYWHERE
<micahjohnston> AM I RIGHT
<joelteon> No, use monads, moron
<micahjohnston> those are both monads
<micahjohnston> :p
<alexgordon> exceptions suck
<alexgordon> monads suck
<alexgordon> exceptions + monads = windows 8 level of suck
<micahjohnston> alexgordon speaks the truth
<alexgordon> omg
<alexgordon> I thought you like exceptions?
<micahjohnston> no?
<micahjohnston> i like time travel
<micahjohnston> it's my preferred error handling system
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> is that the same time travel as elliott's
<alexgordon> ?
<micahjohnston> yeah
<micahjohnston> 3 CREDITS TO GO
<micahjohnston> UNTIL I'M REGISTERED AND CAN WAIT TO CHANGE ALL THESE CLASSES
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: what's a credit?
<alexgordon> mmmm, I think I must have designed about 4 different module systems for furrow today. Hate all of them :P
<alexgordon> such a simple thing, has such huge repercussions
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: it's like
<micahjohnston> you have to have these many credits in these categories
<micahjohnston> to get this degree
<alexgordon> right
<micahjohnston> and a class will be worth 3 credits or 4 credits or something
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: I don't get "3 credits to go until I'm registered"
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: I'm currently registering for classes
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: and I need to be enrolled in 15+ credits this semester for a scholarship, like I explained
<micahjohnston> so I have signed up for 13 credits
<micahjohnston> and I need to sign up for a class worth 3 more
<micahjohnston> and I just did!
<micahjohnston> dummy physics class
<micahjohnston> which I will change
<micahjohnston> when I get test results
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<cythraul> sharkbot: wut. does purr know you're here?
<cythraul> purr: WHAT IS TO BE DONE ABOUT THIS?
* cythraul pets purr
* purr rrrrr
<cythraul> :D
<cythraul> just spilled soda down my shirt, and i haven't even started drinking yet. god dammit
<Nuck> hey, smart people
<micahjohnston> just played guitar and sang at an open mic
<Nuck> Somebody help me debug this zshell script ;_;
* cythraul pokes Nuck with the poking stick
<cythraul> micahjohnston: really? nice! how did it go?
<micahjohnston> cythraul: went pretty well
<Nuck> I checked all inputs, but the output (zilshdir) is forever empty
<micahjohnston> fucked up kinda bad on one of the songs and stopped for a bit
<micahjohnston> but people said they liked my voice
<Nuck> micahjohnston: Stop being a musician, get back to programming
<cythraul> micahjohnston: i got a souncloud! because apparently i didn't have enough networking sites to compulsively check for notifications ^.^;
<micahjohnston> OH cythraul IS GQ
<cythraul> micahjohnston: QUIET IT'S A SECREt
<micahjohnston> cythraul: cool, i have a couple shitty songs up on soundcloud
* cythraul wreathes self in shadows
<micahjohnston> lul
<micahjohnston> i /whois'd
<cythraul> i have reason to believe freenode attempted to k-line me
<Nuck> cythraul: Aren't you having enough fun in #uk?
<cythraul> Nuck: i got banned for a month and a half ;D
<cythraul> Nuck: i actually got a temp! k-line because i was mistaken for one of Adie's alts
<cythraul> Nuck: if you don't know who that is, be happy
<Nuck> cythraul: ... weren't you a mod in there?
<cythraul> Nuck: yes, but that doesn't actually mean i'm exempt from banning :>
<Nuck> Can't you argue the kline? Most of the network seems to know you now
<cythraul> i believe my glorious return is currently slated for the 18th or so
<cythraul> Nuck: i did. i'm fucking one of the ircops there.
<Nuck> >ircops
<Nuck> Do you mean chan op?
<cythraul> no, i mean ircop.
<cythraul> like, of Rizon.
<Nuck> Wait
<Nuck> You have network op
<Nuck> HOW THE FUCK
<cythraul> BAHAHA
<Nuck> You've been there like 2 months
* cythraul plays the battle hymn of the republic
* Nuck plays the imperial march
<cythraul> yus.
<cythraul> also i believe d just stated something along the lines of "oh god, you must be bored. you're in #elliottcable again"
<Nuck> So, I cleaned my room for the first time in well over 10 years
<cythraul> :')
<cythraul> Nuck: ...oh lawd.
<Nuck> I found a bag of "tokyogohan" that has an expiration date of 1992
<Nuck> Er
<Nuck> 1991
<joelteon> girls have no sense of humor
<joelteon> goddamn it
<cythraul> joelteon: no, you just have a shitty one
<Nuck> joelteon: Lemme guess, you made a rape joke?
<cythraul> joelteon: ...goddamn it, etc
<joelteon> i didn't even make a stupid rape joke
<joelteon> i linked her to this webcomic
<joelteon> with the Skull of Obligation
<joelteon> and it's hihlarious
<cythraul> oh
<cythraul> the Oglaf one?
<joelteon> but she doesn't like it because there's a dick in it
<joelteon> yeah
<cythraul> shame on you for conflating all girls with one girl
* cythraul beats joelteon with the NO ! stick
<cythraul> that will be $50 please.
<joelteon> extrapolation is my business
<micahjohnston> fact: some girls who are alive like oglaf
<Nuck> All generalizations are bad.
<cythraul> some girls who are dead like Oglaf, too
<joelteon> no
<joelteon> there are no dead girls who like oglaf
<cythraul> also people who are neither dead, alive, or specifically, girls
<Nuck> Some girls who are dead and under my bed like Oglaf
<cythraul> Nuck: pffffffffhahaha
<Nuck> WOO DEAD HOOKERS
<cythraul> Nuck: WHY AM I LAUGHING AT THAT, THAT WAS STUPID
<cythraul> i spent all evening playing Cards Against Humanity in a park
<joelteon> i also showed her the one with the giraffe snake metaphor
<joelteon> and she didn't like that either
<cythraul> some people don't like Oglaf.
<cythraul> some people are also Wrong.
<joelteon> some people are dumb
<cythraul> and some people are joelteon, which is wrose.
<cythraul> WORSE
<cythraul> GOD DAMMIT TYPO
<cythraul> SEPPUKU
<joelteon> and some people can spell
<cythraul> SEPPUKU NOW
<joelteon> are you gq
cythraul has left #elliottcable ["</wrist>"]
<joelteon> yep
cythraul has joined #elliottcable
<joelteon> why does she have ircop
<cythraul> joelteon: no. why?
<joelteon> oh
<joelteon> you're back
<joelteon> help
* cythraul laughs
<Nuck> joelteon: I think she only has ircop on rizon
<cythraul> Nuck: SHUSH
<joelteon> oh, ok
<cythraul> Nuck: HE DOESNT' NEED TO KNOW THAT
<joelteon> ok cool
<joelteon> rizon doesn't really matter
* cythraul wraaa
<Nuck> And the answer to that would be "because rizon has 4chan irc so she fits in"
<cythraul> you don't really matter.
<joelteon> yeah but i don't have ircop
<cythraul> Nuck: :D
<Nuck> I'll need to talk to her elders on there
<Nuck> Get her permabanned
<Nuck> :3
<cythraul> Nuck: that you are saying this is hilarious because i believe your opinion was something along the lines of "YOU WILL BE EATEN ALIVE"
<joelteon> "We as humans can say "if you like W+X+Y you'd probably like Z" and we're not doing sparse spherical k-means in our heads"
<joelteon> excellent tweet
<cythraul> Nuck: you should go to #skullfux and bother people for me
<Nuck> cythraul: Oh no, I assumed they'd be able to put up with your lunacy
<Nuck> cythraul: I did never imagine they would actually like it though
<cythraul> Nuck: half of them hate me because they're under the impression i'm some kind of camwhore
<joelteon> thundercontrol
<joelteon> that needs to be a thing
<Nuck> >implying you aren't
<cythraul> Nuck: a quarter hate me because the majority hates me and people follow the majority
<joelteon> Thunder Control
<cythraul> Nuck: and another quarter either like me or are apathetic about me and i can run with that.
<cythraul> Nuck: i never said that >:}
<cythraul> someone from #guro is paying me to draw them lesbian sci-fi porn
<joelteon> too bad you can't draw
<micahjohnston> joelteon: what's k-means hobbits
<joelteon> dunno
<cythraul> micahjohnston: lel
<Nuck> what's special k hobbits
<cythraul> joelteon: was that an attempt at trolling? that was
<micahjohnston> cythraul: hi i say lel let's be friends
<cythraul> that was really sad
<cythraul> micahjohnston: i say hello
<cythraul> micahjohnston: i don't know why you say WHAT'S K-LINED? i say hello
<Nuck> micahjohnston, cythraul: stahp yer furry RP
<Nuck> STAHP YIFFING
<micahjohnston> cythraul: hey i've been on a big beatles kick
* cythraul yiffs Nuck's hair
<Nuck> e/me yiffs cythraul's face
<cythraul> micahjohnston: me too! my first album's name is going to be a reference to their first album's name
<cythraul> it's probably just going to be all covers though
<cythraul> not all beatles covers, just...covers
<micahjohnston> oh cool
<micahjohnston> whatcha playin
<cythraul> so far my two most popular songs on soundcloud are an Adventure Time cover
<micahjohnston> or whatnot
<cythraul> and Still Alive
<Nuck> I'm gonna do a Beatles cover album, but be less racist about it
<Nuck> The CAUCASIAN album thank you very much
<cythraul> Nuck: hehhh
* Nuck Tumblrs
<micahjohnston> aw man i gtg
<micahjohnston> gnight
<micahjohnston> <3
<micahjohnston> Nuck: hee hee
<cythraul> micahjohnston: nini <3
<micahjohnston> the funny thing is
<micahjohnston> charles manson
<micahjohnston> and racism
<micahjohnston> and the white album
<cythraul> "the funny thing is charles manson"
<cythraul> it's true.
<cythraul> alright i popped open the kahlua
<cythraul> who wants white russians
<joelteon> fuck
<joelteon> my roommate is smoking weed AGAIN
<Nuck> cythraul: CAUCASIAN RUSSIANS
<cythraul> joelteon: you sound like you'd be hilariously boring at a party
<Nuck> FUCKING RACIST BITCH
<cythraul> Nuck: that's THE fucking racist bitch 2 u, misandrist
<joelteon> cythraul: i don't know where she gets her weed but it smells like shit
<cythraul> most weed does
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> i guess being annoyed by shitty smells when you're trying to concentrate is a party killer
<joelteon> tbh i'm not usually writing code at parties
<joelteon> but you know your mileage may vary
* cythraul giggles
<cythraul> i want that as a tattoo
<devyn> who is cythraul
<cythraul> "gabrielle: mileage may vary"
<joelteon> gq
<cythraul> devyn: NO ONE
<devyn> mmk
* cythraul hides
<joelteon> can't you tell
<cythraul> you don't know me!
<cythraul> what are you, my mom?
<devyn> I figured :)
<cythraul> christ.
* cythraul drinks resentfully
<cythraul> :>
<cythraul> GUYS
<cythraul> i found out
<joelteon> yeah so this is gonna get old pretty quick
<cythraul> i'm actually only 5'0"
<cythraul> joelteon: shut up i was here first
<cythraul> joelteon: WHO EVEN ARE YOU?
* cythraul stares
<joelteon> otters
<cythraul> oh
<devyn> joelteon: just enjoy the smell. deep breaths. eventually it will get better
<joelteon> heh
<cythraul> but...but you can't be otters
<joelteon> i hate cocaine! i just like how it smells
<cythraul> i LIKE otters
<cythraul> joelteon: lol
<purr> lol
* cythraul bites purr
* purr rr
<joelteon> i've only been at freenode for 4 years
<joelteon> wow i was 15
<cythraul> freenode sucks.
<cythraul> oh god you're 19
<cythraul> i'm old.
<devyn> wow I'm 17 and shit
<joelteon> i think my first irc server was in 2007
<joelteon> so
<joelteon> yeah
<cythraul> devyn: what really. did you have a birthday?
<devyn> the 1st of june
<cythraul> i see. happy birthday. have a white russian.
* devyn drinks
<cythraul> or, let me see
<cythraul> i have buspar, and seroquel, and lamictal
<cythraul> and ativan, but you can't have that post white russian
<joelteon> i don't drink either
<joelteon> i must be fun at parties
<cythraul> unless you WANT to do a heath ledger
<cythraul> in which case, by all means.
<cythraul> joelteon: meh. i was being mean because my usual haunts on rizon are not up to having me.
<cythraul> joelteon: how does it go...SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE SOBER~
<cythraul> jesus christ one of the creeps i picked up accidentally on g+ noticed i'm online
<cythraul> devyn: well that's not disturbing at all
<joelteon> this is probably the best image ever created
<cythraul> heh
<Nuck> You're a sad person joelteon
<devyn> I now have a wifi card with three antennas… sadly, I needed it.
<joelteon> what
<Nuck> I've seen better images in You Raff You Ruse threads
<joelteon> am not
<joelteon> no it's just
<joelteon> it's just perfect
<joelteon> like :3 which works in any situation
<joelteon> cmon man
<Nuck> devyn: Just get a nice antenna with guywires n' shit
<devyn> it just looks like fapfapfap to me
<Nuck> Use that for wifi
<Nuck> It looks like a generic rageface variant
<joelteon> it's clearly concentration
<joelteon> looks like me writing SQL queries
<devyn> Nuck: it has to do with the configuration of my room and desk
<Nuck> This just in: joelteon masturbates while writing SQL
<devyn> there are several walls between me and the AP
<Nuck> devyn: Fun. My MacBook only gets 802.11g.
<cythraul> as someone with a gif collection of over 500 individual images i find it a bit annoying to try to relate to generic raegfaces these days
<joelteon> I wrote the greatest database query in history yesterday
<Nuck> Becuase apparently b43 only has g support on the 4331
<joelteon> are you using linux?
<devyn> >b43
<devyn> yes
<joelteon> the last time i saw that dreaded 3-character combination
<joelteon> was when i was running arch
<Nuck> Yep, Arch
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> a great OS but man
<Nuck> I use Arch about 98% of the time nowadays
<joelteon> DRIVERS
<devyn> apple's fault for choosing a manufacturer that has ridiculously restrictive driver policies
<Nuck> Yeah no kidding
<joelteon> apple
<joelteon> I just can't quit you
<joelteon> GOD DAMN IT
<Nuck> Yeah same
<Nuck> I'm like "well maybe try a differe-- NOPE"
<joelteon> partially because of the UX, partially because I'm locked in by hardware and lack of BIOS
<devyn> yeah nothing will ever replace my MacBook but another MacBook
<joelteon> fuckin a
<Nuck> I should give bcm80211 a try maybe
<devyn> I've never seen the point in a Mac desktop though
<devyn> so
<Nuck> Ditto, devyn
<joelteon> i'm such a gay faggot
<joelteon> yeah
<Nuck> Well
<joelteon> i used to have an imac
<joelteon> it was quite nice
<joelteon> big old screen
<Nuck> Yeah, I guess not
<joelteon> but i have that now with my thunderbolt display
<Nuck> I really just need a proprietary OS to run some shit like Photoshop
<cythraul> i'm considering buying a mac air
<cythraul> Nuck: yeah
<Nuck> So if I had a laptop and a Linux desktop, I'd be happy
<devyn> I actually love OS X for dev
<devyn> whenever I need Linux I just log into my server
<joelteon> yeah same
<devyn> or I have a VM on Firestar but it's currently in a state of disrepair :p
<joelteon> i have a vagrant image for developing my bot
<joelteon> otherwise
<joelteon> ok brb gym
<Nuck> I loved OS X
<Nuck> I still do
<Nuck> But I just love Linux more
<Nuck> It's sorta like why I use vim - everything is *exactly* how I want it
<Nuck> Down to the littlest details
<cythraul> heh. i can tell whenever D's been using my computer because the webcam has mysteriously become unplugged and shoved almost completely off the monitor
<Nuck> u camwhore
<cythraul> Nuck: if only. i could be rolling in money instead of idk sitting on my wallet or whatever
<devyn> don't lie you spoon that wallet
<cythraul> devyn: i DID get drunk and tongue it a bit once ;)
<devyn> ahaha
<devyn> I can totally see you doing that
<cythraul> ikr
<cythraul> actually last time i got drunk i got bored while in a g+ hangout and started deep throating the beer bottle.
<cythraul> conversation ceased. i died laughing
<devyn> haha
<cythraul> devyn: i got escorted out of the local comic book shop on Free Comic Book Day by mall security. i was dressed as Jack Sparrow. apparently someone thought i'd stolen something.
<cythraul> what is my life, etc.
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<cythraul> gqbrielle's life: a series of anecdotes strung together improbably.
<devyn> better an adventurous life than a boring one behind a desk
<devyn> mine's currently kind of that :/
* cythraul shrugs
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<cythraul> gotta spend some time behind the wheel of the pirate ship & not just dashing around keelhauling people & getting booty
<devyn> indeed
<devyn> but getting booty I am
<cythraul> badumtssh
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<joelteon> ok i am back
<joelteon> that was a quickie
<devyn> must have been hot
<cythraul> ...lol
<purr> lol
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<joelteon> yeah it was biceps day
<devyn> huh, what did you do with them
<devyn> did it work? ;)
<joelteon> so far
<joelteon> they're pretty sore
<joelteon> i wonder if anybody sees me and thinks "curlbro"
<devyn> god damn it joelteon I'm throwing innuendo at it and it's going so whoosh
<joelteon> ok
<cythraul> devyn: lol
<purr> lol
<joelteon> i know devyn
<joelteon> i'm straight br0
<devyn> okay
<devyn> not that it matters
<devyn> :)
<joelteon> nope
<joelteon> you know what i'd go gay for
<cythraul> sure you are.
<joelteon> my zsh prompt
* cythraul head on hands casually
<devyn> that
<cythraul> i want it
<cythraul> brb chopping off hand
<devyn> how the fuck does the user operate it
<cythraul> they might not. they might just carry it around looking badass
<joelteon> i want to customize my zsh more
<joelteon> but...
<joelteon> what else is there to do
<cythraul> add little bells
<cythraul> there's always room for little bells
<joelteon> there are bells if i tab complete
<cythraul> i see
<joelteon> so there's nothing else to do
<joelteon> i have vi mode with indicators
<joelteon> i have a green dot if everything went well
<joelteon> i have git
<joelteon> i have rbenv
<joelteon> the indicators are greek
<cythraul> purr occasionally goes beep if there's stuff
<devyn> huh
<devyn> shiina ringo, eh?
<devyn> sounds pretty good
<devyn> lol her name is literally Apple Beech
<purr> lol
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<devyn> yup
<devyn> shiina ringo
<devyn> good stuff
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<cythraul> just makes me think of devyn like hulking out and throwing the computer out the window
<joelteon> makes me think of devyn misplacing his computer
<devyn> more like restarting tmux because I had to add my user to a group
<devyn> but hey
<devyn> that works
<joelteon> bah
<cythraul> i know what it means
<joelteon> use ZNC
<cythraul> but the image it creates is something else x3
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<joelteon> do you guys play haxball
<devyn> I have come to love db migrations a lot
<joelteon> yesod is great at them
<devyn> also this is starting to look kinda pretty http://cl.ly/PwkV
<devyn> need a better font though
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<joelteon> what is it
<cythraul> huh. i like it devyn
<cythraul> i was expecting some stripped-down clinical nightmare horror like most of e's stuff is
<devyn> receiver for tasks from distributed computing/compute sharing platform
<joelteon> oh yeah that thing
<devyn> basically it downloads results and tracks their status
<devyn> maru at the moment is basically split into four fairly minimal parts:
<devyn> - producer. creates jobs
<devyn> - network. distributes jobs
<devyn> - worker. does work on jobs
<devyn> - subscriber. receives results
<devyn> this is a subscriber interface.
<devyn> as you might imagine, you can also combine those roles as much as you'd like. it probably makes sense frequently to have an application that is both a producer and a subscriber
<devyn> or a network with some built in producer functionality
<devyn> cythraul: also thanks
<cythraul> :>
<devyn> haha the timestamps need some formatting
<devyn> I was thinking of doing the 'x Y ago' style
<devyn> also at some point I need to put in a speed, i.e. “82 jobs/hour” or something
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<micahjohnston> gmorning
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: !
<micahjohnston> have I caught you in the afternoon instead of late at night?
<alexgordon> hi
<purr> alexgordon: hi!
<alexgordon> yes
<alexgordon> sup micahjohnston
<micahjohnston> so i just got texted that my macbook will come on wednesday
<micahjohnston> which is worse than tuesday but better than thursday or friday
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: LOL
<purr> LOL
<micahjohnston> I ONLY LOVE YOU
<micahjohnston> I ONLY LOVE YOU
<micahjohnston> I ONLY LOVE YOU ONLY LOVE YOU ONLY LOVE YOU WHEN I'M DRUNK
<ec> hi
<purr> ec: hi!
<alexgordon> ec!
<alexgordon> EC!
<ec> Holy *shit* the clouds
<ec> so many clouds
<alexgordon> ec: nah, it's mainly micahjohnston saying "I LOVE YOU"
<ec> lol sounds like much the usual, then
<purr> lol
<ec> who the fuck is cythraul
<ec> can't decide if I should -bankrupt
<ec> yeeeeeah. No way I'm reading all this shit
<ec> if there was anything important, tweet it at me.
<ec> ec out, bitches. I've got a hair appointment, and then a date with four girls. #killmenow
<alexgordon> ec: four girls?
<joelteon> boy google groups sure has gone downhill
<joelteon> ok that was weird
<joelteon> somehow I booted without hardware virtualization enabled for my cpu
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<joelteon> ♪ white walls
<purr> joelteon is listening to “White Walls Ft. Schoolboy Q & Hollis”, by Macklemore & Ryan Lewis
<joelteon> no fuck you
<prophile> -listening to
<purr> prophile is listening to “Welcome to the Jungle”, by Guns N' Roses
<prophile> hah
<joelteon> ♪ white walls between the buried and me
<purr> joelteon is listening to “White Walls”, by Between the Buried and Me
<joelteon> THERE
<joelteon> i have to spell it out for you
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<jesusabdullah> -listening to THIS IS PROGRESSION SESSION
<purr> jesusabdullah: Song not found. ):
<jesusabdullah> hah
<jesusabdullah> -listening to trigger hippie
<purr> jesusabdullah: Song not found. ):
<jesusabdullah> really?
<jesusabdullah> it's Morcheeba
<jesusabdullah> -listening trigger hippie
<purr> jesusabdullah is listening to “Trigger Hippie”, by Morcheeba
<jesusabdullah> aha
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<ec> -how's the bitcoin doing?
<whitequark> hah
<whitequark> so by taxing it, aren't they essentially saying that it's legal?
<ec> they're taxing bitcoin? O_O
* whitequark nods
<whitequark> does that surprise you?
<joelteon> chef is hard
<alexgordon> whitequark: no
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: here?
<alexgordon> ec: where've you been for the last week?
<ec> alexgordon: dicks. so, many, dicks.
<alexgordon> ?
<whitequark> alexgordon: I think he's been screwing around
<alexgordon> I see
<alexgordon> not like you ec
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: here
<micahjohnston> -song i'm looking through you
<purr> micahjohnston: “I'm Looking Through You” by The Wallflowers: <http://tinysong.com/jTWo>, “I'm Looking Through You” by Steve Earle: <http://tinysong.com/190gM>, “I'm Looking Through You” by Ted Leo and The Pharmacists: <http://tinysong.com/ylfe>
<micahjohnston> -song a day in the life
<purr> micahjohnston: “A Day in the Life” by The Yellow Subs: <http://tinysong.com/COiW>, “A Day in the Life” by The/Beatles: <http://tinysong.com/1bICT>, “A Day In the Life” by Koto Ensemble: <http://tinysong.com/GiS0>
<micahjohnston> wtf screw you
<jesusabdullah> micahjohnston: so it sounds like I'm gonna be visiting utah
<micahjohnston> jesusabdullah: sweet, when?
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: ah excellent
<micahjohnston> doesnt exists
<micahjohnston> oh there
<micahjohnston> that was weird
<alexgordon> I've gone through half a dozen different module systems for furrow in total, but I think this one is pretty much perfect
<alexgordon> micahjohnston will proceed to find flaws in it, now I've said that
<whitequark> oh there are flaws
<whitequark> alexgordon: "import sha384()"
<whitequark> where is a list of modules in which it will find functions?
<alexgordon> YES, BITCH.
<whitequark> wat
<alexgordon> I anticipated your objection to that bit
<alexgordon> whitequark: it will search all modules in the search path
<whitequark> in which order?
<alexgordon> any order, doesn't matter
<whitequark> what if several ones have such function?
<alexgordon> then it generates an error telling you to be more specific
<whitequark> this pretty fucking much destroys the purpose of module systems
<whitequark> that is to keep name resolution local.
<whitequark> you add a module, and boom, a completely unrelated module explodes
<whitequark> your system is crap.
<alexgordon> lol whitequark
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> no because you're only importing one function
<whitequark> how so?
<alexgordon> also one module can have a different search path to another module
<whitequark> module A contains sha512; module B does "import sha512()" and it's OK
<whitequark> you add module C to the project which also contains sha512
<whitequark> suddenly module B, which wasn't written by you, explodes
<alexgordon> yes but it doesn't work like that...
<alexgordon> it's not just "throw everything in together"
<alexgordon> you know node.js?
<alexgordon> you have a node_modules folder
<whitequark> no
<alexgordon> lol
<alexgordon> well you have a node_modules folder
<alexgordon> with the dependencies
<alexgordon> a dependency wouldn't have access to the module that contains it
<whitequark> that solves ambiguity, right
<whitequark> but creates different problems
<whitequark> you can have two versions of Date coexisting in a single app
<alexgordon> yep
<whitequark> which is not a problem for functions (well, it is, but it's not as bad)
<whitequark> but it is a problem, because they may very well have incompatible data structures
<whitequark> and it's not like node can enforce or verify that you only put Date 0.5 to Date 0.5's functions
<alexgordon> no, but furrow's type system can
<whitequark> ok
<whitequark> then it should work
<alexgordon> yep
<alexgordon> if a module has a dependency on Date 0.5, and there's also a Date 0.4 somewhere else, then the two are different types. In general this isn't a problem since dependencies *tend* to be internal
<micahjohnston> i hate module systems
<micahjohnston> all of them
<alexgordon> lol micahjohnston
<purr> lol
<micahjohnston> i have no idea how to fix them
<whitequark> lol
<micahjohnston> but like
<alexgordon> what about mine!
<micahjohnston> the idea of files
<micahjohnston> and improt
<alexgordon> mine is better
<micahjohnston> import
<micahjohnston> and modeuls
<micahjohnston> and antyhing like that
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: oh, furrow's module system isn't based on files
<alexgordon> it's based on directories
<micahjohnston> i want to spend as little thinking as possible
<micahjohnston> even wrose
<micahjohnston> ;)
<micahjohnston> just kidding
<micahjohnston> idk
<alexgordon> files create scopes, directories create modules
<micahjohnston> it's something i hate with a passion but have absolutely no direction to fix
<alexgordon> so if two files are in the same directory, they're in the same module
<micahjohnston> ok
<alexgordon> so what's wrong with my module system micahjohnston
<micahjohnston> i do like the approach in general to things like multimethod resolution and such of erroring on multiple results
<micahjohnston> rather than choosing an arbitrary ordering
<alexgordon> right
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: haven't looked much at it
<alexgordon> I swear I spend half my time in C++ typing std::
<alexgordon> when there's no ambiguity!
<micahjohnston> this seems a bit non-monotonic though
<micahjohnston> as in
<whitequark> fuck C++
<micahjohnston> you *can* introduce an ambiguity later
<whitequark> micahjohnston: already discussed above
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: for sure, but in general I think programmers have an irrational fear of ambiguity
<alexgordon> from the C days
<alexgordon> and from dynamic languages
<whitequark> fuck programming
<whitequark> /ragequit
<micahjohnston> ah so projects can only look at there dependencies
<micahjohnston> if there is a nice system for dependencies
<alexgordon> in a modern, compiled, statically type-checked language, ambiguity is no big deal
<micahjohnston> i am completly satisfied with this system
<alexgordon> just fix the problem and move on. 5 seconds of your life
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: haha, yeah. Been using node, very impressed with its module system
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: yeah we need more idempotence and shit
<micahjohnston> yknow what i mean
<alexgordon> I like how you commit your dependencies into git
<micahjohnston> more of throwing things in a pot and making them work or erroring if it's ambiguous and letting you provide just enough
<alexgordon> linus was right: disk IS cheap
<whitequark> alexgordon: it's not about fucking disk
<alexgordon> ok ok versioning too
<alexgordon> but when people argue about it they generally go on about disk
<whitequark> fuck those people
<whitequark> they have no idea what they're talking about
<alexgordon> I'll happily commit all of webkit into my git repos if I don't have to sort out module version incompatibilities
<whitequark> no, you won't
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> ok maybe I won't
<whitequark> building a release webkit takes about eight hours
<alexgordon> git annex!
<whitequark> that is, if you have 64GB of RAM and a ridiculously overclocked 12-core i7
<whitequark> and a RAID0
<alexgordon> but yes, I read about the problems haskell has with versioning creep a year ago, and decided to version everything in Furrow properly
<whitequark> alexgordon: link to haskell's problems?
<whitequark> btw
<whitequark> google already has your ultimate solution to versioning
<whitequark> `repo'
<whitequark> which is not as braindead as node's
<alexgordon> whitequark: think it was this: http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2012/11/solving-cabal-hell
<alexgordon> node's is fucking awesome
<whitequark> alexgordon: thx
<micahjohnston> the new vampire weekend is fucking awesome
<alexgordon> lol
<alexgordon> not as awesome as node's module system
<alexgordon> basically the problem with ALL dependency systems, is the way they compare version numbers
<alexgordon> it should be a simple predicate: are the two version numbers equal?
<whitequark> http://semver.org
<alexgordon> but instead it's an ordering: is A < B ?
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: it's much better than node's module system
<micahjohnston> i'd much rather listen to vampire weekend than use node's module system
<whitequark> semver doesn't entirely solve the version number hell, and it can break in unpleasant ways in huge projects
<whitequark> like rails
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: but yeah i bet node has a nice module system
<whitequark> but semver plus version fixing for production seems like a good idea to me.
<micahjohnston> but yeah
<alexgordon> yeah, semver's problem is that it doesn't account for human stupidity
<micahjohnston> music > programming
<whitequark> alexgordon: not semver's prob
<alexgordon> it's someone's problem
<whitequark> *nothing* can account for human stupidity
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<whitequark> it's yours problem for using a package of a braindead maintainer.
<alexgordon> I'm a libertarian language designer: individuals should be able to do what they want, but they shouldn't be able to fuck up *your* life
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<alexgordon> do whatever you want in your own module, but the module system itself should mandate a strict and bulletproof interface
<whitequark> undecidable
<alexgordon> my favourite kind of problem ;)
<alexgordon> anyway, I think my solution works
<alexgordon> oh, one thing I didn't mention is that modules have public and private functions
* whitequark nods
<alexgordon> private functions aren't included in resolution
<alexgordon> so an implementation change in a module *shouldn't* cause an ambiguity in another module
<alexgordon> only interface changes
<micahjohnston> saying undecidable is basically just grumpin
<micahjohnston> because usually you can decide all useful cases and error when you can't
<micahjohnston> yknow
<alexgordon> all the best problems are AI complete
<micahjohnston> like
<micahjohnston> "how to make music"
<whitequark> micahjohnston: you can't
<whitequark> if something in the module interface lies outside of the domain of your type system
<whitequark> ie, basically in all cases
<whitequark> "does sha512() return a hex string or binary string?"
<alexgordon> yeah I see what you mean
<alexgordon> In general I would throw up my hands in such a situation
<alexgordon> don't want to end up with something like haskell's linear algebra module ;)
<micahjohnston> I FEEL IT IN MY BONES
<micahjohnston> I FEEL IT IN MY BO-O-ONES
<whitequark> my stance on module systems is kinda simpler
<micahjohnston> -song step vampire weekend
<purr> micahjohnston: “Step” by Vampire Weekend: <http://tinysong.com/1cCyU>
<whitequark> I enforce enough interface to be able to meaningfully do encapsulation
<whitequark> ie, public/private methods
<whitequark> and meaningfully do separate compilation
<whitequark> ie, type signatures
<whitequark> everything else the compiler doesn't need, and the human will have to act upon
<micahjohnston> wisdom's a gift, but you'd trade it for youth
<micahjohnston> age is an honor; it's still not the truth
<alexgordon> I would add that if you only use "import fs" or "from fs import copy" you won't have any problems with stuff generating ambiguity errors in the future due to interface change
<alexgordon> and imports don't change the public interface, so nobody else knows or cares which style of import you use
<micahjohnston> modules end up having the most sql-ey syntax
<micahjohnston> like
<micahjohnston> most languages go for english syntax with fill in the blank
<alexgordon> I suppose my motivation is mainly to get OO-style encapsulation in an exclusively functional language. So instead of classes, you have modules. Instead of instance methods you have functions in the module, and instead of instance variables you have data structures of the same name
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: ha, I tried some symbolic syntaxes but I didn't like the look of them
<micahjohnston> alexgordon: mhm
<micahjohnston> actually that's spot on about the OO encapsulation
<alexgordon> too unintuitive
<micahjohnston> Haskell does that a lot
<micahjohnston> although this seems probably better
<alexgordon> yeah haskell has problems because it has no overloading (except in typeclasses)
<alexgordon> which kinda ruins the whole encapsulation thing
<alexgordon> most important thing about OO-langs is that instance methods are overloaded based on the self/this type
<alexgordon> i.e. virtual functions
<alexgordon> message sends, etc
<whitequark> alexgordon: already been done
<whitequark> ocaml
<alexgordon> I know, it sucks :P
<whitequark> (OO-style encaps)
<whitequark> and why?
<alexgordon> ocaml is a great language on paper
<alexgordon> I want to like it
<whitequark> what's bad not on paper?
<joelteon> chef is cool
<micahjohnston> joelteon: what's chef?
<micahjohnston> the most frustrating thing ever
<micahjohnston> to listen to
<alexgordon> micahjohnston: holy shit, immature people play FPSs?
<alexgordon> completely irrelevant but: I'm annoyed that art has become just another outlet of political expression. Once upon a time, the goal of art was making pretty pictures
<alexgordon> now every artist wants to have some political "message" in their artwork
<whitequark> hahahahaha
<whitequark> if you think old art was never about politics
<whitequark> it's just because the politics didn't survive
<whitequark> neither did most of art though
<alexgordon> heh
<alexgordon> well ok but I don't see any politics in a nice landscape
<whitequark> it is not necessarily embedded in the picture itself
<alexgordon> it seems to me that photography has displaced the "good" art
<whitequark> for example (totally out of my head), creating art takes money, and that money could be collected from some peasants
<whitequark> or
<whitequark> a dude living in country A near the king could draw some pretty shit from country B which just seceded
<whitequark> to show his support etc
<whitequark> it would be totally invisible for you and yet get him beheaded
<whitequark> get my idea?
<whitequark> *everything* is about politics. it's just that politics is temporal
<alexgordon> not saying there's no politics in art itself, but this idea of artists making their output political…
<whitequark> is it good art?
<alexgordon> to me, "good" art means there is some skill involved
<whitequark> ok
<whitequark> don't care about shit, then
<alexgordon> as pg said, the two things anybody can talk about with no qualifications are sport and politics
<whitequark> the only way to deal with it: don't care about shit and educate your social circle
<whitequark> dunno about sports
<whitequark> but politics, in the broad sense, pretty much encompasses the everyday life as it is
<whitequark> so it is quite naturally ubiquotous
<alexgordon> not caring per se, just lamenting how tremendously unskilled the successful artists are
<whitequark> who the fuck cares about success
<whitequark> care about art.
<alexgordon> well those are the ones who get their art in galleries
<whitequark> looking in the wrong galleries, then
<alexgordon> heh maybe
<whitequark> it's like music.
<alexgordon> yeah. best art gallery is Flickr
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