ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #ELLIOTTCABLE: Puppy paws patter placidly through the pale passageways ...
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<micahjohnston>
alexgordon:
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: I don't really like infix lambdas :p
<alexgordon>
?
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: vs?
<micahjohnston>
prefix and infix
<micahjohnston>
:p
<micahjohnston>
like I don't really like => in C# or w/e
<micahjohnston>
or : in furrow I spose
<alexgordon>
right
<alexgordon>
but
<alexgordon>
vs what
<alexgordon>
you mean
<alexgordon>
you like
<alexgordon>
\x -> x
<alexgordon>
but you don't like
<alexgordon>
x => x
<alexgordon>
?
<alexgordon>
personally
<alexgordon>
I don't think it matters because you usually have to parenthesise it anyway
<alexgordon>
(x: x)
<alexgordon>
that said, I have a blanket policy on removing "crud"
<alexgordon>
x:x is the minimum syntax for a lambda possible
<alexgordon>
well I guess mathematica has #&
<alexgordon>
but that requires anonymous arguments
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<purr>
<devyn> elliottcable: eboyjr's boobs
<joelteon>
do you guys happen to know if poke balls thrown after the first one have a higher catch rate?
<devyn>
joelteon: I don't think they do
<devyn>
otherwise you could just have a shitton of cheap balls and catch pretty much anything eventually, right?
<devyn>
anyway brb
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<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
assuming they don't kill off all your pokemon first
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<joelteon>
and by kill off
<joelteon>
i mean faint
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<joelteon>
how would you guys design a throttling system for an IRC bot?
<joelteon>
i was thinking maintain a list of times per user for their most recent messages
<joelteon>
when you receive a new one, filter out the ones that are too old
<joelteon>
if the list gets too big, kick
<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
that'll do, pig
<devyn>
joelteon: that'll do, donkey
<devyn>
that'll do
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<joelteon>
i fucking hate working with maps in haskell though
<joelteon>
they're just awful
<devyn>
you mean Map maps?
<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
Maybes everywhere
<devyn>
haha, well, how the fuck else are you gonna do it
<joelteon>
i know
<joelteon>
it just sucks
<joelteon>
i should be able to do it with lens
<devyn>
I got a pair of corsair SP120s to replace the fan on my cooler
<devyn>
oh my god so quiet <3
<devyn>
and performance is better
<devyn>
I can actually have my 4.3 GHz OC and not worry about my temps anymore
<purr>
<Nuck> I think there's actually a wat about my mangina. >_>
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<purr>
<Nuck> Imagine if all porn everywhere just had dolphins over the tits
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<purr>
<sephr> the dom doesn't let me generate invalid xml
<purr>
<devyn> wallhackers
<ellio>
Hi, all.
<ellio>
Of *course* my client quit. Jesus H. Christ.
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<ellio>
o7 swart
<ellio>
it's pretty dead right now (just hopped in to say hi), but I'm pretty sure you'll get along excellently with at least devyn and alexgordon, if not several others.
<purr>
hah
<ellio>
APL and mathematics? yeah.
<swart>
morning
<swart>
mostly I live in IRC. Twitter is just something I do on the weekends :)
<ellio>
swart: A lot of us in here are various-levels-of-amateur programming language theorists / programming language designers.
<swart>
K is the J variant Iverson developed?
<ellio>
So, the whole “pretty hard to make a living at” is something I share in heavily.
<ellio>
sometimes I just wish I could find a fire for building CRUD Rails apps.
<swart>
yeah I'm a bit of a Smalltalk geek so I get steady work, but it's pretty specialized so I've been moving a lot
<fannkuch>
no, K is by Arthur Whitney
<fannkuch>
Whitney also wrote the first version of J, but Iverson and Hui mostly developed it
<ellio>
I've'n't the slightest fucking clue where to find work doing what *I* love.
<ellio>
>:
<swart>
oh I see. not too familiar with it, but I worked at UBS in Switzerland and someone gave me a reference manual once :)
<ellio>
Probably going to move to Seattle or SanFran and just hope for the best. *If* I'm going to find work doing anything remotely interesting, I suppose it'll be there.
<swart>
well line up some interviews before you go. you'll be fine
<swart>
there's a ton of work
<ellio>
Problem is finding interesting things, not finding work so much.
<swart>
SF is stupidly expensive though
<swart>
people are interesting everywhere :)
<ellio>
I've got a lot of history with Ruby way-back-when, and my current magnum-opus involves a hell of a lot of JavaScript … so I could *easily* find work doing web-dev at any shop you could name. I'm pretty damn good. But I don't know how to find *interesting* shit.
<ellio>
Infrastructure dev. Tooling. Open-source. The stuff I love.
<ellio>
Most especially, language design work. That's what I truly care about. Making *programming* easier and faster and more productive and more fun.
<ellio>
lol yeah, so I hear.
<purr>
lol
<swart>
the more you specialize the easier it is to find work ime
<ellio>
I've got some good friend trying to drag me into the pacific NW.
<ellio>
Cascadia or whatever it's called.
<swart>
the west is the best
<ellio>
Portland, Seattle.
<swart>
get here, we'll do the rest
<ellio>
so that's a pretty likely situation. Especially 'cause cheaper than SF.
<ellio>
swart: where'bouts're you?
<swart>
Oregon is fantastic. also not insanely overcrowded like the bay area
<swart>
San Jose CA
<ellio>
One thing I'm slightly freaked-out by is the political climate therebouts
<swart>
I'm from Vancouver though. before that Alberta
<ellio>
I'm from Alaska.
<swart>
the demographics here are interesting
<ellio>
Which is climactically similar, and diametrically different, socially.
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<swart>
I find this to be the least social place I've lived
<ellio>
San Jose? Oh?
<ellio>
and I meant, as in, social-policy, not social-interaction
<swart>
yeah I meant social interaction
<ellio>
alaskans like to shoot things.
<ellio>
Anyway! Back to software development!
<ellio>
or some similar generalization thereof.
<ellio>
canadians like to give things healthcare.
<ellio>
swart: It's nice to meet you. Hang around. We need more highly-intellectual people around here. (=
<swart>
okay have fun
<swart>
I'll hang around. thanks for the invitation
<ellio>
at the very least, make sure you meet devyn, alexgordon, and whitequark.
<alexgordon>
up ellio
<ellio>
down allie
<ellio>
introduce yourself to swart, but don't scare him off. ;)
<swart>
it's like splitting your data across different servers. not magic and certainly comes with its own set of problems
<elliottcable>
I feel like conlang relays are evidence of conlanging being stuck in a Rut similar to ours of PLT.
<elliottcable>
/=
<elliottcable>
micahjohnston ⑊ ↑
<elliottcable>
then again, I guess an end-goal almost taken as a given for any conlanging experiment would be “ability to express any concept *another* language can express”
<swart>
anyone play with dyalog APL?
<swart>
I've got it running in an ssh session and it's asking me to use the Windows key
<elliottcable>
is dyalog a prolog successor?
<elliottcable>
ahhhh, “development platform”
<swart>
no APL
<swart>
got it running on my raspberry pi, which is pretty fucking great actually
<swart>
the unix docs say to use the Ctrl key on that plaform, but my shell isn't happy with that
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<elliottcable>
o7 gazoombo
<elliottcable>
irccloud! :D
<joelteon>
guys what should I eat for lunch
<elliottcable>
yourself.
<alexgordon>
sup
<elliottcable>
hi, alexgordon
<elliottcable>
buncha shit
<joelteon>
hi
<purr>
joelteon: hi!
<joelteon>
i need to eat something
<alexgordon>
mmm
<alexgordon>
I need to relax
* alexgordon
makes a compiler
<alexgordon>
amazing how relaxing compilers are
<alexgordon>
though this is the only channel that understands
<whitequark>
guys guys
<whitequark>
have you seen vau-calculus and the Kernel PL?
<whitequark>
it's beautiful
<whitequark>
tldr: scheme with first-class special forms (not just procedures).
<alexgordon>
no
* whitequark
is reading the guy's thesis
<alexgordon>
link?
<whitequark>
it's enormous. both in size (400+ pages) and scope
<whitequark>
formalization of dozen of various languages, philosophical concerns... apart from the language itself
<whitequark>
sec
* alexgordon
writes a grammar for his grammar-grammar generator
<alexgordon>
^ ELLIOTTCABLE: see, it is possible to specify language grammars!
<alexgordon>
oops, root rule is wrong :P
<elliottcable>
hi alexgordon
<elliottcable>
joelteon ⑊ I need to eat something, too
<elliottcable>
joelteon ⑊ let's eat eachother!
<elliottcable>
alexgordon ⑊ lolwat
<purr>
lolwat
<elliottcable>
alexgordon ⑊ I don't know what any of that means.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: no but micah would
<elliottcable>
and it's *easy* to formalize cPaws, everybody knows that
<joelteon>
what is there to eta
<joelteon>
eat
<joelteon>
in this state
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: then do it
<joelteon>
so, I wonder if AT&T is tracking all the packets I send through the network
<elliottcable>
it's already formalized
<elliottcable>
pretty sure micah wrote a grammar ages ago
<elliottcable>
anyway, I'm not going to learn some stupid fucking PEG stuff to formalize a six-character grammar for you, alexgordon
<elliottcable>
It's of no relevance to me, because I already have a parser, and the syntax is not intended to be portable.
<elliottcable>
That's like you asking me to write a PEG grammar for my assmebler language.
<elliottcable>
“Fuck that. It's <word> <arg>[, <arg>, <arg>, ...]\n. Figure out the rest for yourself, if you have a damn good reason to be parsing it.”
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol PEG. tell him whitequark
<purr>
lol
<joelteon>
I like PEGs
<alexgordon>
joelteon: then you shall die.
<joelteon>
well, mainly because it's the only parsing thing available for Lua
<alexgordon>
Lua: 1-based indexing should be enough for anyone
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: it was more the lack of any specification whatsoever
<alexgordon>
you go on about how the language is simple
<alexgordon>
but
<joelteon>
haha
<joelteon>
lua is weird
<joelteon>
but it is pretty fast
<alexgordon>
not simple enough to lend itself to a simple specification
<joelteon>
and good for scripting
<joelteon>
AND good for embedding
<alexgordon>
joelteon: eh, python doesn't treat me like a child
<joelteon>
yeah, but lua isn't a terrible language
<alexgordon>
it's not really good for embedding, since it has a very small standard library
<alexgordon>
it's not really good for anything because of that
<alexgordon>
want to parse json? tough luck!
<joelteon>
well, you'd think the language it's embedded in would provide whatever you need
<alexgordon>
you'd think the state would provide adequate healthcare!
<joelteon>
you'd think the NSA wouldn't track all of our personal data
<alexgordon>
you'd think
<alexgordon>
but I mean, I don't see why there can't be a blessed set of lua code to perform common tasks
<alexgordon>
lua is a programmatic desert
<elliottcable>
nonono
<elliottcable>
I fully believe that I could specify Paws in a couple pages.
<elliottcable>
The problem is not that a specification wouldn't be *simple*,
<elliottcable>
it's that the *design is incomplete*.
<elliottcable>
And will continue to be until more implementations are written.
<joelteon>
the *design* is dependent on the *implementation*?
<joelteon>
this language is going places
<elliottcable>
There's *no way* for me to reasonably design distribution or Units until I have *widely differing* implementations (a JavaScript one running on a client; a functional one, in Haskell or similar; a machine-code one or compiler of some sort) to *design* that.
<elliottcable>
joelteon ⑊ Yes. As with any *real-world* language, as opposed to some academic bullshit, I'm designing it based on what *works well*, what's useful, what's do-able.
<elliottcable>
Anybody who would design a distributed language intended to federate between wildly different environments in real-time, *without taking into account how that actually works out in those environments*, is an academic-minded douchebag with no grounding in reality.
* elliottcable
breathes
<elliottcable>
Sorry. Pet peeve.
<elliottcable>
Anyway. It'd be possible for me to write an abriged spec for what we have so far, but it's so surely going to change with implementation and discussion of the remaining issues, that it'd be a *huge* waste of my time.
<alexgordon>
wait so paws is google wave?
<joelteon>
looks that way
<elliottcable>
It'd basically exist only temporarily, and only to please alexgordon. And given that I don't believe that pleasing alexgordon is actually going to net me anything (i.e. his time; or an implementation grounded in his theories of software-development, which is what I really want), then it benefits me nothing.
<whitequark>
lol PEG
<purr>
lol
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<elliottcable>
micahjohnston^!
<elliottcable>
you still have a hat! <3
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<joelteon>
thank god for returns
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<whitequark>
fucking freenode
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<whitequark>
also
<whitequark>
fuck some dickhead who occupied all the 2.4G spectrum in my apartments
<whitequark>
this is annoying. nothing works on 2.4 and phone doesn't work well on 5
<joelteon>
cause i liek to feel superior to people on weekends
<ELLIOTTCABLE^>
otters were u liv
<joelteon>
nor cal
<ELLIOTTCABLE^>
ew
<joelteon>
it's nice here
<ELLIOTTCABLE^>
ewbutts
<joelteon>
ok
<purr>
<alexgordon> FUCK cups
<yorick>
I think printing is terrible in general
<alexgordon^>
?
<yorick>
joelteon: more importantly, y u cringepics
<yorick>
alexgordon^: you do mean the common unix printing system, right?
<joelteon>
every now and again some of them are funny
<yorick>
joelteon: and most of the time it's just laughing at things
<yorick>
s/things/people
<joelteon>
yeah, I know
<alexgordon^>
reddit is a waste of life
<joelteon>
it's a pretty lame subreddit
<joelteon>
but sometimes it's good
<alexgordon^>
I'm so much happier since I quit reddit
<alexgordon^>
and HN
<alexgordon^>
and all that shit
<joelteon>
really
<joelteon>
reddit was making you unhappy?
<alexgordon^>
yeah
<joelteon>
why
<alexgordon^>
constant bitching and pedanticism
<alexgordon^>
from the people who comment on there
<joelteon>
you have a point
<alexgordon^>
not quite as bad as HN, but it just turns you into a bitter person
<yorick>
I only look at HN's submissions, rarely the comments
<yorick>
the comments are just terrible
<alexgordon^>
yah
<yorick>
sometimes submissions I like (I view them with RSS) turn out to have been downvoted, [dead] or deleted
<yorick>
s/sometimes/most of the time/
<alexgordon^>
I mean
<alexgordon^>
some HN comments have been great
<alexgordon^>
I can remember a few that were really great
<alexgordon^>
but mostly it's just crap now
<swart>
a firehose of clever people shooting down other people's ideas
<alexgordon^>
unless it's from pg
<joelteon>
yeah maybe I'll just stop redditing
<swart>
I unfollowed pg on twitter just the other day. made some inane comment about parenting :p
<yorick>
I remember a lesswrong discussion that said that something wrong with our culture is that we prefer to argue showing disagreement and pointing out negative things instead of making new agreeing points
<swart>
honestly sucking up to rich people is such a waste of life. might as well follow some celebrity crap
<alexgordon^>
yorick: no good sentence has ever started with "I remember a lesswrong discussion..."
<yorick>
alexgordon^: pfft
<yorick>
no good sentence has ever started with "no good sentence has ever started with"
<alexgordon^>
quite
<yorick>
but what's wrong with lesswrong?
<alexgordon^>
yorick: seems like HN with more circlejerk
<alexgordon^>
and emphasis on the jerk
<joelteon>
reddit is a massive circlejerk
<joelteon>
and yet /r/programming
<joelteon>
on every post
<alexgordon^>
but mainly, if we are a product of an environment, I don't want to end up like any of the people on lesswrong!
<joelteon>
"oh this is a stupid idea"
<joelteon>
it's really fucking weird
<alexgordon^>
so for that reason alone I stay away from it
<joelteon>
and then everybody agrees in the comment section about how stupid it is
<joelteon>
I don't know why
<joelteon>
I guess because they all want to show how superior they are to the OP?
<joelteon>
BRB, I'm going to the gym
<alexgordon^>
joelteon: pg said it, disagreeing is more interesting than agreeing
<alexgordon^>
people who agree don't comment on things
<yorick>
why not start with a brainfuck evaluator?
<joelteon>
that's too easy
<joelteon>
well
<joelteon>
not really
<joelteon>
maybe PHP with lexical scoping
<joelteon>
that would be cool
<yorick>
and then a compiler for C to brainfuck
<joelteon>
yeah that would be cool too
<joelteon>
I dunno how you do syscalls in brainfuck
<yorick>
and then a human-brain interface and general AI
<yorick>
the AI ofcourse written in brainfuck
<yorick>
I dunno why not introduce the $ for syscalls :P
<yorick>
maybe some spaceships with warp drives after that and of course artificial gravity
<yorick>
and then an effective dyson sphere around the sun
<joelteon>
what license should I use?
<yorick>
s/human-brain/brain-computer/
<joelteon>
for my open source software that i dont give a fuck that people do with
<yorick>
I always use ISC
<yorick>
also you'll probably need a way to reverse entropy
<joelteon>
you know I hate when examples don't typecheck
<Nuck>
Guys. Somebody just posted the dumbest thing on /g/
<Nuck>
"Turing proved in his halting problem that it is impossible for a programmer to manually manage memory"
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<joelteon>
so
<joelteon>
I think PHP's grammar is left recursive
<joelteon>
this sucks
<alexgordon^>
Nuck: lol wat
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
Oh man
<joelteon>
wait
<Nuck>
I'm in this thread dissing Haskell and praising Node.js to piss them off
<Nuck>
"It's the first language made for real asynchronous things like webscale and databases. It's also great for realtime interactive applications development, something you can't do in C++"
<joelteon>
how do you parse left recursive grammars?
<Nuck>
And nobody realized I was trolling
<joelteon>
consider the case of concatenating two variables
<joelteon>
$a.$b
<Nuck>
"like webscale and databases"
<joelteon>
to parse a concatenation you have to do <expr> '.' <expr>
<joelteon>
but a concatenation IS an expression
<joelteon>
well I could generalize it to infix operator
<Nuck>
hahahah YES THREADJACKED
<joelteon>
but the problem remains
<alexgordon^>
Nuck: link?
<joelteon>
if I put <var> before <concat> in the grammar