ec changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #
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<purr> <Nuck> On the bright side, incomprehensibly, you can still write Objective C
<ec> hu!
<ec> back.
<ec> ish.
<ec> hm.
<ec> I don't think there's a need for a pristine flag, alexzordon.
<alexzordon> ec ok?
<ec> initially, the PC points to the *root* of the Script. that is, the first expression.
<ec> [`foo bar baz`] -> `[foo] bar baz` -> `foo [bar] baz`, etc
<ec> that also implies that the stack is empty.
<ec> if the stack is length=0, and the PC is defined (i.e. pointing at the Script, presumably), then it's “pristine.”
<ec> the next time the stack could ever be empty, is if the execution were completed.
<alexzordon> right
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<joelteon> ok so this is day 4?
<joelteon> or is it 5?
* Determinist grrrrs
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<joelteon> ok I'm on 10.9 dev preview
<joelteon> no more xmonad
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<ec> joelteon: hm?
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<joelteon> i'm on 10.9 dev preview
<joelteon> it's good, but
<joelteon> xnomad doesn't work on it
<joelteon> and i don't get the accessibility apis
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<purr> <ec> MENSTRUAL MINER
<ec> hiiii
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<joelteon> hi
<purr> joelteon: hi!
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<purr> <devyn> AIIIIIIIAHHHH
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<devyn> hm
<devyn> I'm not sure if I'm going crazy
<devyn> or my music is playing slightly faster
<devyn> than it should be
<devyn> yep I'm going crazy
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<purr> <elliottcable> I think John Mulaney is turning me gay.
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
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<purr> <purr> idklolosx
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: wat.
<purr> whitequark: can't find the referenced what.
<whitequark> purr: are you fucking dumb
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<purr> <gqbrielle> sephr
<purr> <Nuck> I'm gonna go write a state machine, because it makes more sense than Elliott does.
<purr> <locks> figures, talk about hookers and here comes alexgordon
<alexgordon> you called?
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<alexgordon> ec: here?
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<joelteon> i'm back and better than ever
<fleaslice> great to hear brosli
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<purr> <alexgordon> why, we lispers spend half as much time writing code as normal programmers, leaving the other half of our time for writing smug essays!
<alexgordon> :D
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<joelteon> 10.8 is so much better than 10.9 rigth now
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<alexgordon> joelteon: you think so?
<alexgordon> 10.9 is so much better than 10.8
<whitequark> hey don't fight
<whitequark> OS X is crap regardless of version
<joelteon> alexgordon: yeah, but my tiling WM won't work on 10.9
<joelteon> whitequark: then this is not the discussion for you
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> sounds like you should be using linux joelteon
<joelteon> yeah, maybe I should
<whitequark> joelteon: i fuck things
<joelteon> I dunno, last time I used arch it was pretty tough to get the battery life up to a reasonable length
<joelteon> that and it didn't automatically lock when I closed the lid
<joelteon> but it was pretty great other than that
<joelteon> and I really like the apple hardware
<joelteon> if I wanted to get some random notebook to install arch on it just wouldn't be the same
<joelteon> what to do what to do
<whitequark> joelteon: thinkpads
<joelteon> oh plus arch has GNU sed
<joelteon> hmmmm
<joelteon> I'll have to play around with one
<joelteon> oh, and the trackpad behavior on OSX is something I can't replicate anywhere else
<joelteon> and drivers on arch are kinda lousy
<whitequark> use debian.
<joelteon> why
<joelteon> 64-bit GHC is broken on debian
<whitequark> where
<joelteon> where?
<joelteon> everywhere
<alexgordon> joelteon: it's kinda annoying that all linux distros suck
<alexgordon> compared to OS X
<joelteon> yeah I'd say that qualifies as very annoying
<alexgordon> and the more niche you go, the worse it gets
<joelteon> yeah
<alexgordon> ubuntu seems to enjoy the most support
<whitequark> wat
<alexgordon> I often see instructions especially for ubuntu
<whitequark> ubuntu is like, flexibility of os x, user-friendliness of windows
<joelteon> yeah, but it's worse
<whitequark> fortunately 99.9% of ubuntu packages work on debian testing
<joelteon> the hting is
<joelteon> ok, here's one example I just thought of at 11:47
<alexgordon> which is not to say that ubuntu is more broken than other distros, but if there's a problem people are more likely to share the solution for ubuntu
<whitequark> besides
<joelteon> OSX implements scroll momentum at the hardware level
<whitequark> distros don't suck :p
<joelteon> well, not at the hardware level
<alexgordon> joelteon: yeah, it doesn't :P
<joelteon> I don't think that's the right word
<joelteon> but
<joelteon> maybe the driver level?
<whitequark> desktop environments sometimes do
<joelteon> i dunno
<whitequark> joelteon: discover synclient
<joelteon> ok anyway
<joelteon> yeah, I tried synaptics
<alexgordon> on linux there's a certain contempt afforded to users
<alexgordon> "go fix it yourself, it's free"
<joelteon> i tweaked the trackpad options about
<joelteon> 600,000 times
<whitequark> alexgordon: well, because it is
<joelteon> and it still didn't feel right
<alexgordon> whitequark: right, but this is not the user's problem
<joelteon> the granularity of steps for scrolling is too high
<whitequark> alexgordon: if the user doesn't like something, it's first and foremost their problem
<joelteon> and once you use a mac trackpad for like, 2 months
<joelteon> and then switch to any other method that involves scrolling
<joelteon> it's like switching from, say, an audi to a dump truck
<alexgordon> whitequark: and lots of users get pissed off with fixing stuff themself, then linux loses
<joelteon> incredibly jarring
<whitequark> alexgordon: desktop is by far not the most important market for linux
<whitequark> it's already won
<alexgordon> okay
<joelteon> well, I think our discussion is about desktop linux
<joelteon> not server linux
<whitequark> the amount of linux installations is more than windows, osx and all other oses combined
<joelteon> i'm 100% happy with my server linux
<alexgordon> point is, on OS X, you can pay someone (Apple) and they make the shit work
<joelteon> because there's not any interaction with it besids a terminal
<whitequark> by, probably, several orders
<alexgordon> on linux… well there's canonical but they're not quite as good
<joelteon> alexgordon: well, I'm not too dumb to configure stuff myself, the point is that it can't be equivalently configured
<whitequark> joelteon: server? android, plus all those SOHO routers, etc, etc.
<alexgordon> joelteon: it's not a question of being dumb though, it's a question of giving a shit
<joelteon> and anyone who says that linux and OSX usability are equivalent if you "tweak the config"
<joelteon> has not used OSX for any extended period of time
<alexgordon> my OS exists to serve me, and it should work, out of the box
<alexgordon> if it can't do that, then I'll find one that can
<joelteon> ok
<joelteon> android too
<joelteon> I don't personally use an android device
<whitequark> joelteon: you clearly didn't use android 4
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> clearly
<whitequark> because everything before is utter shit
<whitequark> I agree
<joelteon> yeah I've never used android
<whitequark> and android 4 is where iOS gains features from ;)
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> and iOS fixes them
<joelteon> that's the general pattern
<whitequark> doesn't seem so.
<whitequark> but whatever
<whitequark> I have work to do
<joelteon> ok
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<Alexandra> hola
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<ec> hi, all
<ec> -clouds
<purr> ec: is stuck up in the clouds; hilight 'em if you want 'em.
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<ec> alexgordon: hi
<ec> who the fuck are these people
<ec> Kapone, Alexandra, fleaslice
<ec> gazoombo, racaille, wtfff
<racaille> ec: it is I, your friend upgrayeddd
<ec> oh may god wtf is with the name changes
<racaille> I'm feeling ratchet lately
<alexgordon> hi ec
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<joelteon> whe fuck
<joelteon> thetucfick
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<joelteon> heh
<joelteon> being in a channel full of self taught programmers has given me some very bad preconceptions about humanity in general
<joelteon> such as "never assume your users aren't stupid"
<joelteon> well
<joelteon> no, actually, "assume your users aren't stupid"
<joelteon> or "don't assume your users are stupid"
<purr> <Nuck> Pretty sure CoffeeScript is already preoccupied sodomizing itself.
<prophile> almost all programmers are self-taught
<prophile> the formal stuff comes after you already know how to program
<prophile> for pretty much everyone
<prophile> (the scientific community being the exception)
<alexgordon> hah
<alexgordon> and scientific code is the best
<prophile> well, it's the whole tools vs robots thing
<alexgordon> a formal education in programming reduces the variance: it teaches you to think like someone who's had a formal education in programming
<alexgordon> self-taught people can be very good, or very bad. Formal educations breed meritocracy
<alexgordon> erm
<alexgordon> thanks spell check
<prophile> you think so?
<alexgordon> mediocrity
<prophile> which uni did you attend?
<alexgordon> I have only ever taken one university-level programming coursee
<alexgordon> it was as bad as I was expecting it to be
<prophile> and naturally you can generalise from that to all university-level programming courses
<prophile> I'm going to guess imperial or bristol
<prophile> not computer science though, clearly
<prophile> hm
<alexgordon> prophile: not all, just most
<prophile> see I tried to search for your CV
<yorick> prophile: alright, I've been attending university computer science for a year now, and it was far far worse than I thought
<yorick> happy now? :)
<alexgordon> prophile: I'm a baseball player
<prophile> but google treats CV' and 'resumé' as equivalent
<prophile> then treats 'resumé' and 'resume' as equivalent
<prophile> and gives me github issues for lion resume support
<yorick> they were like "this is a bridge. on a bridge, the customer and the user are different entities"
<alexgordon> prophile: I don't doubt that if you go to oxbridge you'll get a pretty good education. But there's not enough good people to go around
<alexgordon> the people who design these courses don't have a clue, most of the time
<prophile> hah
<prophile> not at bloody oxford you won't
<yorick> "company X wants to manage airlines, where every airline has planes that have flights with seats and everything" underline the important words
<prophile> the BCS pulled their certification
<prophile> the oxford CS course doesn't have any bad programming parts because it doesn't have any programming at all
<prophile> I believe their programming has been reduced to an optional haskell course in the fourth year
<alexgordon> ha
<yorick> also xhtml/1.1 and script.aculo.us are web 2.0 tools for the future
<alexgordon> prophile: well cambridge then
<prophile> cambridge and imperial are probably the best on CS
<prophile> with places like exeter or bristol or soton not too far behind
<alexgordon> prophile: if you're a good programmer you can make pretty serious money. Why would you design a programming undergrad course? (not even a masters!)
<prophile> there are plenty of good programmers in academia
<prophile> believe it or not
<alexgordon> prophile: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
<alexgordon> yorick: lol'd
<purr> lol
<prophile> alexgordon: which of my research groups do you want surveyed? :D
<alexgordon> prophile: anyway my original point was that people who teach themselves are taught by experience, whereas people who learn from universities are taught the same as everybody else