ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #ELLIOTTCABLE: Puppy paws patter placidly through the pale passageways ...
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: YEAH
<whitequark>
it's cute
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<micahjohnston>
yeah
<micahjohnston>
4:19 PM <•alexgordon> A man walks into a bar. He says to a girl: "λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))". The girl buys him a drink.
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<joelteon>
I like that joke.
<joelteon>
Aw fuck balls
<joelteon>
I missed the game
<alexgordon>
<micahjohnston> 4:19 PM <•alexgordon> A man walks into a bar. He says to a girl: "λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))". The girl buys him a drink.
<micahjohnston>
6:27 PM <•alexgordon> <micahjohnston> 4:19 PM <•alexgordon> A man walks into a bar. He says to a girl: "λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))". The girl buys him a drink.
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<micahjohnston>
alexgordon is the sexistest
<alexgordon>
eh?
<alexgordon>
not that I deny it!
<devyn>
-learn sexy lambda calculus = A man walks into a bar. He says to a girl: "λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))". The girl buys him a drink.
<purr>
devyn: Learned `sexy lambda calculus`.
<devyn>
alexgordon: you are fucking awesome :)
<alexgordon>
I am fucking sexist, reportedly
<devyn>
we all are, according to someone
<alexgordon>
and that someone is micahjohnston
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<devyn>
I'm really not sure what's sexist about that joke… aren't girls allowed to buy guys drinks because they hit on them with lambda calculus?
<devyn>
:p
<alexgordon>
girls buying guys drinks is sexist!
<devyn>
it doesn't say “she felt obligated to buy him a drink because society expects that of her”
<alexgordon>
methinks micahjohnston didn't check his privilege this morning!
<devyn>
haha
<devyn>
brb markov chaining
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<micahjohnston>
devyn: the joke wasn't what was sexist
<micahjohnston>
4:16 PM <•alexgordon> whitequark: man, explaining lambda calculus to a girl is bad at ANY time of day
<micahjohnston>
i guess i may have interpreted it as more sexist than it was though
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<alexgordon>
micahjohnston brings up a good point, which is that girls can't do lambda calculus!
<whitequark>
*facedesk*
<alexgordon>
LIBERAL CONSPIRACY
<micahjohnston>
:|
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: have you ever met a girl who could do lambda calculus?
<alexgordon>
if not, how can you be sure they exist?
<micahjohnston>
yes I have actually
<alexgordon>
you can't count yourself
<micahjohnston>
:|
<alexgordon>
I forgot what I was arguing
<micahjohnston>
that you are a pig
<micahjohnston>
:o
<alexgordon>
oink
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: so men and women are equal, eh?
<micahjohnston>
:|
<alexgordon>
you can't answer that to everything!
<micahjohnston>
well what are you arguing
<micahjohnston>
lol
<purr>
lol
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: just had a discussion with a girl about lambda calculus and computational linguistics and chomskyan grammar hierarchies and context-free grammars
<alexgordon>
how can you be SURE she was a girl?
<alexgordon>
<micahjohnston> she looks like one!
<micahjohnston>
:|
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: not sure what I think of vau-calculus
<alexgordon>
come on, can't even monty python
<micahjohnston>
seems like it takes away everything alexgordon likes in languages, namely predictability at a glance
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: oh i don't know monty python very well
<whitequark>
that dude drops some references to static analysis and efficient compilation at the start of the article
<whitequark>
so I guess he has some kind of magic sauce
<whitequark>
I have yet to read about
<whitequark>
because so far, yeah, it looks like predictability nightmare
<whitequark>
sleep
<joelteon>
who wants to teach me to DNS!
<alexgordon>
joelteon: name goes in, IP goes out. never a miscommunication
<joelteon>
y-you have a point
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<devyn>
In Bokmål as that". Gujarati (1100–1500 AD) and portfolio investment (FDI) in towns and SMS applications. The alphabetic values, but is 70 MGD.[82] A sprachbund (also known as part of at Baghdad in historical in the three grammatical shifts allegiance to the varieties are present day of Europe can be read the Taj Mahal (1630–1653) in the life while halvtreds (short for true "self" but attributed to be discussed, and northern Italy, standard devel
<devyn>
micahjohnston: lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
micahjohnston: oh yeah btw I'm gonna markov chain paragraphs in wikipedia articles for fun
<devyn>
Both Swedes and several local dialects making it was established in the three other choice of Latin and shudra) in slave ancestors) and fully iconic given language acquisition of the Federal Investigation Agency, the national languages distinct, share many attempts to formulate rules of Croatian writers assumed (such as the last featured choirs singing a group are three short release. It is also frequently encountered in French merged to its literature
<joelteon>
I wonder what it would be like if I carried around a monitor instead of a laptop
<ellio>
meh @ battery life.
<joelteon>
and
<ellio>
no retina.
<ellio>
<trumpcard>
<joelteon>
just connected to my mac pro at home or my mac mini at work
<joelteon>
and kept them synced
<vil>
they made it tall for more antenna space
<joelteon>
that's an idea
<micahjohnston>
oh god cheecuebrieyah is perpetually in need of calming the fuck down
<ellio>
wait, there's a new EFI!?
<joelteon>
well, it looks different
<micahjohnston>
mac pro looks like a trash can
<vil>
micahjohnston: heh
<vil>
micahjohnston: but a FAST one
<micahjohnston>
mac pros all seem weirdly not-apply
<joelteon>
yeah, they do
<joelteon>
I like the mac pro though
<ellio>
imo they're very APple
<ellio>
Apple*
<ellio>
I mean, they're *quintessentially* Apple-y.
<ellio>
They nicely break up this perception that “If it's aluminum, or white plastic, it's Apple.”
<vil>
it's like the G4 cube
<ellio>
the HTC One is more “Apple-y” than the Mac Pro.
<ellio>
but, the Mac Pro is more *Apple*.
<vil>
except hopefully this will work
<joelteon>
ellio: gud point
<ellio>
I want a G4 Cube fishtank
<ellio>
I am ellliotttcable, my points are all gud
<micahjohnston>
ellio: yeah after i said that i realized i'm kinda stuck in that perception
<vil>
I need to go visit an Apple Store, like, immediately
<micahjohnston>
because older apple products seem "not-apply" to me too
<ellio>
lol
<purr>
lol
<micahjohnston>
lol
<ellio>
vil: I was *supposed* to go to an Apple Store today
<ellio>
but decided not to
<vil>
someone on Twitter said that stuff won't be in until the 12th
<joelteon>
micahjohnston: apple is absolutely expert at planned obsolescence
<joelteon>
everything new they make makes everything old look stupid
<vil>
joelteon: but they were lenient this time!
<vil>
I was fully expecting my iPhone 4 to be obsolete
<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
I have one of those too
<joelteon>
I want a 5 eventually
<ellio>
hm.
<vil>
I don't like the 5
<ellio>
Apparently websites can give your Mac push notifications now.
<vil>
I'd upgrade to a 4S in a heartbeat
<ellio>
“Now when you choose to receive updates from a website, your breaking news, sports scores, auction alerts, and more appear as notifications — even when Safari isn’t running.8”
<joelteon>
ooh
<vil>
ellio: and notifications sync between devices!
<vil>
info on the first line, and >> on the second
<ellio>
I kinda want to write my own shell
<joelteon>
and I don't put stuff on the right because
<ellio>
one with some *hardcore* ncurses-type shit
<joelteon>
it doesn't move around when i resize
<joelteon>
which I do a lot
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<ellio>
to make a beautiful, informative, dynamic interface
<joelteon>
I don't think mavericks is gonna be usable for me if it doesn't run xnomad
<joelteon>
which it probably won't
<gkatsev>
mavericks?
<vil>
gkatsev: new OS X
<gkatsev>
the new osx?
<gkatsev>
ok
<joelteon>
yeah
<gkatsev>
who is amused that ios7 copied webos?
<ellio>
“OS X now exclusively uses a 64-bit kernel, but it continues to run both 32-bit and 64-bit applications.”
<vil>
gkatsev: and Android, and WP8
<joelteon>
gkatsev: which bit
<gkatsev>
vil: yes, but the major new feature in ios7 is from webos
<vil>
cards?
<gkatsev>
joelteon: the card-based multitasking
<joelteon>
oh
<vil>
I don't consider that the major feature
<ellio>
I'm not amused.
<vil>
Control Center is what I'm most excited about
<gkatsev>
vil: well, ios7 doesn't have many "major" features.
<vil>
gkatsev: true
<gkatsev>
vil: I would say true multitasking is probably the biggest change from the announcement
<vil>
besides the fact that the whole OS looks completely different, right ;)
<gkatsev>
biggest user accessible feature
<vil>
the closer-to-true multitasking is cool too
<gkatsev>
well, yes, besides the redesign
<ellio>
disagree
<ellio>
well, at least, re: user-facing multitasking
<ellio>
biggest feature is dev-facing multitasking
<vil>
^^
<ellio>
or more realistically, what's *going* to be,
<ellio>
“the new thing where apps can run a little bit when the LTE is strong”
<ellio>
to “update the content in the apps you use the most.”
<ellio>
which is really the way to do it.
<vil>
yeah, the intelligent background usage is awesome
<ellio>
I find these “WELL THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD IT THE WHOLE TIME, SO I'M ANGRY, NOT EXCITED” schtick to be so sickeningly dumb.
<gkatsev>
ellio: shrug, any multitasking. Since it's now more like true multitasking unlike what they had before. Both for user and dev.
<vil>
ellio: same
<ellio>
Everybody else had it first, and everybody else did it *wrong*. #volatileopinionfromelliottcable
<vil>
it'll be interesting to see what of the new UI gets toned down over the course of the beta
<gkatsev>
webos implemented the UI right, though
<ellio>
Apple waited, thought about it, watched how their users used it, and discovered a way to do it that will keep battery-lives and responsiveness high.
<joelteon>
i don't really care how early you did it if it sucked
<ellio>
<3 WebOS
<purr>
Let it be known that ellio hearts WebOS.
<vil>
that
<ellio>
wish that'd been a Real Thing.
<micahjohnston>
yeah
<ellio>
How you know when something's dead:
<ellio>
when the Wikipedia page is the first Google result for it.
<ellio>
“I/O Kit is based on an object- oriented programming model implemented in a restricted form of C++ that omits features unsuitable for use within a multithreaded kernel.”
<ellio>
Interesting.
<ellio>
I kinda wanna write a driver.
<ellio>
joelteon: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<joelteon>
the wikipedia page for him is the first google result
<ellio>
Through use of the dictionary- based WKdm algorithm, compression and decompression are faster than reading and writing to disk.
<ellio>
This is so interesting.
<ellio>
So Apple basically implemented “swap in RAM.”
<ellio>
Sounds like they're going to be moving towards “KEEP EVERYTHING IN RAM FOREVER”
<ellio>
otherwise, who would be creating swap-style optimizations on RAM-usage, when the cheapest fucking computers still have a bajillion megabytes of RAM?
<ellio>
Like I'm gonna load that entire thing, vil
<vil>
ellio: you can jump
<gkatsev>
yeah, it'll seek in and just start grabbing from the middle.
<gkatsev>
at least it should
<vil>
did for me, in Chrome even
<vil>
"can't innovate anymore my ass"
<vil>
best quote from an Apple keynote EVER
<whitequark>
ellio: wait what?
<whitequark>
what you say is rather strange
<ellio>
gkatsev: it wouldn't do so, for me
<whitequark>
"keep everything in ram forever" is a decades old trend. basically any fs cache out there
<gkatsev>
weird
<ellio>
whitequark: yes, I know, etc
<joelteon>
yeah you can't run a database server from disk
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<ellio>
whitequark: but I mean, start encouraging App developers to keep more in RAM.
<ellio>
basically:
<whitequark>
ramzswap is also widely used in linux, but only in embedded contexts
<ellio>
Mountain Lion installations tend to sit at a couple gigs of active usage
<whitequark>
the reason is rather simple
<joelteon>
yeah
<ellio>
as long as you stay out of Photoshop and Firefox
<whitequark>
when you employ zswap, you basically overcommit memory
<joelteon>
my developer's instinct tells me to try to minimize RAM
<joelteon>
usage
<gkatsev>
ellio: what browser?
<ellio>
this new focusing on in-RAM swapping, makes me wonder if future ones are going to start eating up *dozens* of gigs, in normal usage
<joelteon>
they're gonna be fast as shit though
<ellio>
gkatsev: saf
<gkatsev>
I would assume it'll work there especially
<whitequark>
ram sitting free is ram you've paid for and thrown bucks on the wind
<ellio>
Many malware exploits rely on fixed locations for well-known system functions. To mitigate that risk, OS X randomly relocates the kernel, kexts, and system frameworks at system boot.
<ellio>
this shit is cool
<ellio>
whitequark: yes, understood and agreed
<ellio>
All I'm trying to say is I find this to be an *interesting move for Apple*.
<whitequark>
oh they implemented aslr. took just about 8 years
* whitequark
sighs
<alexgordon>
oh hi ellio
<gkatsev>
ellio: it works for me in safari. Even better than it worked in firefox
<ellio>
Everybody everywhere seems to be assuming that RAM is done for; that there's not much point to innovating in that direction, so to speak.
<gkatsev>
ellio: you're doing it wrong, if it isn't working for you
<whitequark>
ellio: memristors!
<whitequark>
and feram
<ellio>
gkatsev: I've no idea what “doing it right” is, then.
<whitequark>
you can already buy chips with feram
<ellio>
I clicked on the diamond-shaped thing, and dragged.
<alexgordon>
the micahstasi will arrive and tell me off
<whitequark>
ellio: that mill is useless
<whitequark>
no feedback
<whitequark>
shitty resolution
<joelteon>
i love my cock block
<whitequark>
i understand you have too much money but it is really useless ;)
<alexgordon>
ellio has really too much money
<joelteon>
where did he get it
<joelteon>
I still want an answer
<joelteon>
elliott couldn't kill anyone
<alexgordon>
joelteon: might rape them though
<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
but you don't get paid for raping
<ellio>
whitequark: oh? but is it easy to use?
<joelteon>
so do you guys not know or are you just disregarding my question?
<alexgordon>
wtf are you talking about joelteon
<joelteon>
there you go
<joelteon>
good show
<whitequark>
ellio: likely no (all crowdsourced 3d printers have really shitty software), but I speculate
<whitequark>
ellio: never cared enough to investigate that far. I just would have no use for that stuff
<whitequark>
it's like buying super soaker instead of ak-47 and asking if it's easy to use. well, maybe
<joelteon>
it's also more legal
<ellio>
I've got a life-goal of having a genetic printer, makerbot, and circuit-fab on a single workshop table
<whitequark>
makerbot?
<whitequark>
also overpriced shit
* ellio
eyebrow
<whitequark>
not sure about genetic printers but if it's from kickstarter...
<ellio>
my alternatives being? as I haven't ordered a Makerbot yet.
<whitequark>
printrbot is rather good
<whitequark>
it has slightly better print quality by itself, and is, like, five times cheaper or so
<ellio>
I've seen results form a Makerbot, I'm not super-impressed
<whitequark>
yeah
<ellio>
but I don't know where to look for a high-resolution, high-volume model
<whitequark>
if you want a REALLY good 3d printer
<ellio>
I've got this problem where I want high resolution *and* relatively cheap/available feed material
<whitequark>
you want the shit with resin and laser. can't remember the term for them
<ellio>
I want all of my investment to be up-front.
<whitequark>
well, resin is relatively cheap
<whitequark>
ok, then it's for you
<ellio>
I don't want to be worried about the *cost* for printing my girlfriend a hanger-rack, or a new phone-case, or making something to hold my soda.
<ellio>
make sense?
<ellio>
I want a low barrier to “spinning something out real quick” for banal, every-day tasks.
<ellio>
the resin/laser systems are SLS
<ellio>
and I remember looking at one as an alternative to the makerbot, but I can't remember the name
<whitequark>
right
<ellio>
*honestly* I want an EBM box. But, like, how many hundred-thousand-dollars?
<whitequark>
well, there is an awful lot of 3d printers around recently
<ellio>
I'd have to give up on my dreams to buy a Model S.
<ellio>
then again, maybe *then* I could just *print* myself Model S's.
<whitequark>
ummm
<whitequark>
I doubt you'd find good use for EBM :)
<devyn>
Solaris 10 satellites equipped with an Orthodox community, competition, featuring a training is supposed race, and metabolic energy.[80] Consequently, South Korea, split on 25 miles south edge of his will, therefore, their lives.
<devyn>
The LEC debuted on the flow of man appeared in a single season and the literacy to persuade him deeply involved in 965 by two policemen riding in vain for any heterozygous recessive genetic disorders.[276] For this order to the awarding of poor countries.
<ellio>
OH
<ellio>
FORM 1
<whitequark>
the resolution is impressive
<ellio>
YEAH THAT
<ellio>
that's the one I actually wanted.
<whitequark>
well just buy the thing
<ellio>
but I saw problems with it
<ellio>
forget what it was.
<whitequark>
it's $2k even I could afford it
<ellio>
lol yeah
<whitequark>
well $3k3. same shit
<ellio>
all of them are shitty ;_;
<whitequark>
they also seem to somewhat know their craft. unlike many other folks on KS
<whitequark>
if you want them to be smoother, it's easy
<whitequark>
get an acetone bath
<ellio>
“But there's also the cost of raw materials to consider. One kilogram of the PLA filament used in the Replicator 2 will set you back $48, while 1 liter of resin for the Form 1 is estimated to be priced at $149 (or $129 for early adopters).”
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
$149. is that much?
<ellio>
oooo
<ellio>
man, I like you
<ellio>
acetone bath.
<ellio>
googl'd, happy'd
<whitequark>
note that you don't really spend a lot of that resin
<whitequark>
just the part which is actually deposited
<whitequark>
so 1 liter is a lot of shit
<devyn>
isn't 1 kilogram more likely more than 1 liter of the other shit?
<whitequark>
hm?
<whitequark>
resin's sold by liters
<ellio>
dunno
<ellio>
don't care
<ellio>
depressed
<ellio>
depressed girls buy themselves shoes
<ellio>
depressed elliotts buy themselves 3D printers
<devyn>
On the constituent particles that became the elementary school founded in the NDP has also a Joint Chiefs who, according to divert the atmospheric pressure can be given Old Earth -- although light to restore it is generally low. Along the alkaloid poison and transmutes frequently used mostly consists of the next full possession of the lining of Rabbinism; and Kizabave but is pink. My functional genes, normally used in 724 and anti-slavery actions.
<whitequark>
devyn: ahh
<alexgordon>
ellio: why depressed?
<whitequark>
devyn: not sure.
<ellio>
same reason I've been depressed for a week?
<devyn>
In Dewsbury, a personal union with what has been thirteen Assassins of the smallest horse racing, which stands today.
<ellio>
shit with my person.
<ellio>
… speaking of her,
<micahjohnston>
ellio: didn't you once have access to a fab
<ellio>
micahjohnston: yep. never got to exercise that. >:
<ellio>
that was when I was in Bozeman.
<ellio>
OH. My god. have you seriously known me that long!?
<micahjohnston>
aw.
<devyn>
he sole companion of pitch accent (ὀξεῖα) is punishable by applying to the Canadians 15 to be blurred with hard science
<ellio>
but, speaking of person,
<micahjohnston>
yeah this was back at the genesis of paws
<ellio>
I mention I'm buying a 3D printer out of depression to her.
<joelteon>
the fuck
<ellio>
then I talk about my life-goal of a high-tech garage workshop
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<whitequark>
you just needed an excuse
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<ellio>
her response?
<micahjohnston>
devyn: use markov chains for something cooler like playing super mario bros
<micahjohnston>
:p
<devyn>
joelteon: The very danger of his name, for papal arms combined.[63][64]
<devyn>
micahjohnston: lol, does that work? how?
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
Urea cream with solemnity and aroma depicted as to have the choir continued to the result of refugees
<micahjohnston>
well, markovy things
<devyn>
>UREA CREAM
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm crying so hard
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, it never sent, fucking irccloud
<devyn>
devyn: “Urea cream with solemnity and aroma depicted as to have the choir continued to the result of refugees” wat.
<purr>
beep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
she said “You're gonna make the *best* dad.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I spent a *huge* portion of my childhood, in my garage with my father, working on one of two things:
<micahjohnston>
I love via-links
<micahjohnston>
so glad internet news stories have them
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the Firearms Bench, which was a looooooong plywood board with 4x4 uprights, all painted grey and topped over with carpet or something, very home-made-y,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
with EVERY GUN-SMITHING OR AMMO-LOADING TOOL KNOWN TO MANKIND on it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
... and the Robotics Bench, which was much smaller, and had a crazy messy amalgam of ebay'd logic circuit learning boards, and electronics/soldering/hand-construction gear
<devyn>
sounds awesome
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
my “did with my dad” things were shooting moos, building guns, and designing robots.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah. I loved my young childhood, before I got distracted by computers and my parents' relationship went to shit on a stick.
<micahjohnston>
i googled what moos are
<micahjohnston>
like, what's a moo
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so I want to be that. so bad.
<micahjohnston>
lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
moose*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
micahjohnston: "i googled what moos are" wat.
<purr>
beep.
<micahjohnston>
devyn: isn't that mario thing sweet
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to be that with my kids.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Iwant to be that dad who'sgeekily introducing his daughter to 3D printing.
<micahjohnston>
i made video games with my dad
<micahjohnston>
well at least when he had time
<micahjohnston>
:p
<devyn>
micahjohnston: yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to be teaching my six-year-old to 3D print his own toys.
<micahjohnston>
devyn: if you wat your own wikipedia markov chains then no one will like you
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
designign them on his iPad, helping him operate the complex 3D modeling software to turn it into a Real Thing.
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: everyone does. that's like, ideal father-child relationship there
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
micahjohnston: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the point of wat's is not for markof stuff
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's for stuff that sounds like it would make excellent non-sequitur out-of-context.
<devyn>
micahjohnston: I will wat my own markov chains and you will TAKE IT LIKE A MAN
<devyn>
micahjohnston: reading the paper now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, I can't order a Form 1 on kickstarter. stupid me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
aw >:
<micahjohnston>
devyn: no just watch the video
<devyn>
It's no coincidence that each controller also has 8 buttons: Up,
<devyn>
Down, Left, Right, Select, Start, B and A
<devyn>
whoa, I never considered that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn ⑊ wat
<devyn>
8 buttons because it's convenient on an 8-bit platform!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
omg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
omg
* ELLIOTTCABLE
headdesks
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
man, I'm gonna have one *geeky* fucking desk.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“For simplicity's sake let us assume that liquid plastic resin has a density comparable to that of water, or 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Thus, resin for the Form 1 would cost $149 per kg, which is about three times the price of PLA plastic filament for the Replicator 2. Even if the Form 1 resin were closer in density to plexiglass, the price would come out to $109/kg (if using the $129 per liter Kickstarter backer price), which is still more than ...
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
... double the price of the Replicator 2's PLA filament.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
FUCK YOU COPY-PASTA VIRUS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Read more: 3D Printer Prizefight: MakerBot Replicator 2 vs Formlabs Form 1 - Popular Mechanics
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Follow us: @PopMech on Twitter | popularmechanics on Facebook
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Visit us at PopularMechanics.com”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
LOL IT DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE THE URL IN THE COPYPASTA
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
FAILINGEST FAIL
<devyn>
lol it's probably richtext
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Also, the Replicator 2 can be set to hollow out the insides of a model, with a partial infill, if the design does not need to be solid. It is unclear as to whether you can do something similar with the Form 1, but you most likely cannot.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
those are the reasons I decide not to do it, iirc
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that, and the PLA is more brittle/harder. Not as soft and yielding as the ABS for Makerbot.
<vil>
good news, they finally managed to get a "site is currently broken" page up at the dev portal
<joelteon>
yep
<joelteon>
i just checked
<joelteon>
it spread through the internet like wildfire
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I got it to load earlier
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
for like, a minute
<vil>
so guys
<vil>
do I want the beta of Maverick or iOS 7 more?
<joelteon>
so vil
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Xcode 5
<joelteon>
yes
<vil>
because I don't want to sign up for both programs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ooo, Xcode 5 is up
<joelteon>
i do
<joelteon>
i want the maverick beta more
<joelteon>
but i'll probably just get both
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh wait no it's not
<vil>
well, I do, but I don't want to spend the money
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Where am I going to get fast internet in Chicago.
<joelteon>
i do
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OMG LOL
<purr>
LOL
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I said out-loud “Wherea am I going to get fast internet, around here?”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Chelsea's roommate goes “See, I don't understand the difference, between fast internet, and regular internet. What makes it “fast?” Isn't it all the same Internet?”
<vil>
OMFG
<joelteon>
......
<joelteon>
so like, I don't understand the difference, between a fast car, and a regular car. what makes it fast? aren't cars all the same?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then he goes,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“I dunno, go to a fast-internet store?”
<vil>
joelteon: "isn't it all the same road?"
<joelteon>
jessica nigri is pretty cute
<vil>
bbl food
<joelteon>
i'd press her select button if you catch my drift
<devyn>
Dr. Markov says: “Arabic has distributed by the pancreas”
<joelteon>
is that how they did it?
<joelteon>
huh
<joelteon>
I once had a markov chain generator that gave me "The thunderous sound of raspberries"
<joelteon>
"Thomas' eyes expanded over in supplication"
<joelteon>
"A thousand souls of four times."
<joelteon>
I like that one
<joelteon>
The din of the sun came upon the town for which entrails were able to be of demons burned his quest to rebuild Bastion because that's necessary," she lived upon this mountain two days.
<joelteon>
now THAT is a good sentence
Willox_ is now known as Willox
<joelteon>
"Rebuild," said Thomas, catlike; he was dead.
<joelteon>
"No shit," said Thomas was not too tightly, but he knew that they sang joyfully in short, yellowish, dry dirt for him.
<joelteon>
touching
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
T LOADED
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
IT LOADED
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I NEED FAST INTERNET
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wait
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
why can't I download it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
WHYYYYY
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: maverick?
<alexgordon>
ios 7?
<alexgordon>
xcode 5?
<alexgordon>
angry birds?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all of the above
eligrey_ is now known as eligrey
<joelteon>
it loaded for me too
<joelteon>
but now I'm buying a developer ID
<joelteon>
and it'll take awhile
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
where should I go to downloading this shit
<alexgordon>
joelteon: yeah takes like a day for the developer ID to clear
* alexgordon
waits
<micahjohnston>
joelteon: "quest to rebuild Bastion" :D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Apple doesn't ship to P.O. boxes!?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fuckers!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Bastion <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<3 Bastion
<purr>
Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE hearts Bastion.
<joelteon>
micahjohnston: yeah that's where I got the name :<
<joelteon>
I'm such an original fuck
<joelteon>
unoriginal that is
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'M currently having a song written for me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“Elliott used that gun, to hunt himself hookers 'n cunt,”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
an't breathe laughing so hard
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<3 Max
<purr>
Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE hearts Max.
<micahjohnston>
joelteon: wait what name?
<joelteon>
bastion
<devyn>
not sure if email address actually has ampersand in it or this field is screwed up
<alexgordon>
someone talk to me about something that ISN'T apple
<whitequark>
alexgordon:
<whitequark>
that dude's article...
<alexgordon>
which dude
<whitequark>
on vau calculus
<alexgordon>
there's like 3.5 billion dudes
<whitequark>
have I pestered you with it?
<alexgordon>
oh right
<alexgordon>
the long one
<alexgordon>
even the abstract is long
<alexgordon>
whitequark: give me a 1 sentence description
<joelteon>
there we go
<joelteon>
office wifi went down
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: I don't like $ and I don't like macros
<micahjohnston>
just kidding
<joelteon>
you guys talking about rust?
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: basically it's everything you don't like in languages
<alexgordon>
joelteon: vau calculus
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: LOL
<purr>
LOL
<joelteon>
oh
<whitequark>
alexgordon: first-class macros
<alexgordon>
ewww
<alexgordon>
first-class prostitutes?
<whitequark>
it's rather interesting
<alexgordon>
like normal prostitutes, but BETTER!
<micahjohnston>
it's like lambda calculus excpet that operands are not evaluated
<joelteon>
w-what
<joelteon>
how do you do things without evaluation
<whitequark>
first, it's fucking huge. it gives a huge overview on the history of lisp, the way things are how they are
<whitequark>
eg lisp didn't have closures for 20 years, it turns out
<alexgordon>
huh
<whitequark>
his thesis is 400 page long
<whitequark>
I'm on hundredth and he just beginned
<alexgordon>
if ELLIOTTCABLE wrote up paws, I bet it would look like this
ELLIOTTCABLE has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<micahjohnston>
joelteon: you can selectively evaluate
ELLIOTTCABLE has joined #elliottcable
<alexgordon>
300 pages on the history of node.js
<joelteon>
oh
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: well it didn't have closures but didn't it have lambdas
<micahjohnston>
without dynamic scope
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: omg haha
<whitequark>
then, it's really interesting. it gives a lot of philosophical (in the good sense) motivation on the way languages are done
<micahjohnston>
with*
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: yeah it seems you're entirely correct on that description of this thing
<whitequark>
on the static scope, hygiene, static analysis, lots of stuff
<alexgordon>
everything i don't like
<joelteon>
wrapped up in one language
<micahjohnston>
actually i think elliott wouldn't like it either
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: correct, it had lambdas and dynamic scope
<micahjohnston>
I wanted paws to look like this at one point
<micahjohnston>
but now I'm glad it doesn't
<micahjohnston>
:p
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: and weren't they just stored as syntax trees
<whitequark>
yep
<micahjohnston>
that you passed around
<whitequark>
without the env.
<whitequark>
and it was a clusterfuck :p
<whitequark>
alexgordon: I think you're unjust
<whitequark>
because the dude writes that he does give a fuck about static analysis
<alexgordon>
I basically like my programming languages to be... consensual heterosexual sex in the missionary position
<whitequark>
but I didn't read to that point yet
<whitequark>
I really wonder how exactly is he going to turn that prostitution to sex in missionary position
<whitequark>
in your words.
<whitequark>
i mean
<whitequark>
it gets me really excited
<alexgordon>
whitequark: you and micahjohnston are kinkier than I am, as far as languages go
<alexgordon>
I like simplicity, and sticking close to the instruction set of CPUs
<alexgordon>
you guys like... crazy shit
<whitequark>
alexgordon: I *love* simplicity
<whitequark>
however, if your language is so simple that each person using it must build an insane clusterfuck just to get things done... well. no.
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: well i want different cpus
<micahjohnston>
so there
<alexgordon>
whitequark: but I disagree that this IS necessary
<whitequark>
and you can only stick close to the ISA these days by programming in assembly
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: not the kind of simplicity he means
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: that's my point
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: lol you should be asking for financing rather than building languages then
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
his kind of simplicity is often illusory
<whitequark>
it's like OISC
<alexgordon>
Johnston Chips
<whitequark>
"hey you just got one instruction! it's simple as hell"
<whitequark>
yet it isn't.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: I like languages that I can fit in my head in one go
<micahjohnston>
and again alexgordon means C and Java-like simplicity
<micahjohnston>
not $vau-like
<whitequark>
alexgordon: duh
<alexgordon>
at some point complexity becomes counterproductive, because you forget that all those time saving features exist
<whitequark>
$vau can be fit on one page
<whitequark>
complete implementation AND formal description of semantics
<alexgordon>
no one person can keep C++ in their head, or scala, or haskell+ghc extensions
<whitequark>
alexgordon: I agree with you here!
<alexgordon>
so i prefer to have a simple *language* and a complex library
<whitequark>
I think that instead of piling possibly useful features one over another
<alexgordon>
and sort out the "Clusterfuck" at library-level
<whitequark>
you should look at common patterns. look at how you can make them SIMPLER (not more obscure)
<whitequark>
then add them to the language.
<whitequark>
sorting out the clusterfuck at library-level doesn't really work
<whitequark>
well, prove otherwise
<whitequark>
for example, C... well
<whitequark>
we have autoconf now
<whitequark>
shall I continue?
<alexgordon>
C is really *old*
<whitequark>
doesn't matter
<whitequark>
lisp is older :p
<alexgordon>
like I said not long ago: we can really do better than C, it's just that nobody has done
<whitequark>
there is a problem with C
<whitequark>
well, apart from it being C
<alexgordon>
if you need performance on par with C, well there's C++
<whitequark>
the problem is that no one cares, because it's designed by a committee
<alexgordon>
not much else
<whitequark>
java
<whitequark>
on par with C
<alexgordon>
java doesn't even compile to native instructions!
<alexgordon>
it runs on a virtual machine
<alexgordon>
it has no unsigneds
<whitequark>
too fat
<alexgordon>
all memory goes through a GC
<alexgordon>
java is not on par with C in any meaningful way
<whitequark>
do you sincerely believe that java doesn't compile to native code?
<whitequark>
or trolling me?
<whitequark>
you couldn't be that ignorant
<whitequark>
well, whatever
<whitequark>
there's a more general problem with any sentence that contains "performance on par with C"
<whitequark>
which is
<alexgordon>
for example I remember the jgit developers moaning that the lack of unsigneds was making it very slow...
<whitequark>
in practice, your C programs are performant, but they do not exhibit correctness
<whitequark>
and correctness > speed.
<alexgordon>
and GCs are just unsuitable in many cases, such as games
<whitequark>
unity thinks otherwise
<alexgordon>
call of duty is in unity?
<alexgordon>
battlefield 3?
<whitequark>
call of duty is also really old
<whitequark>
isn't it?
<alexgordon>
well the newer ones aren't :P
<joelteon>
i wouldn't think they rewrote the whole engine
<micahjohnston>
whitequark whenever you say a sweeping statememnt like "correctness > speed" then you need to realize that you and the person you are talking to write programs for different reasonss and in different fields
<micahjohnston>
for instance
<alexgordon>
I don't play shooters, but I'm just saying
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: wow
<micahjohnston>
people who write programs that control hydraulic garbage trucks that literally explode when your code is too slow
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: present me a single case where speed is more important than correctness
<micahjohnston>
care just as much about speed
<alexgordon>
there are lots of cases where java is not suitable, because of performance reasons
<micahjohnston>
people who write games care way more about speed than mathematical correctness
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: also what you're talking about is called real-time
<whitequark>
and it has literally NOTHING to do with speed
<alexgordon>
I'm not saying java is useless in all cases, it's just not on par with C and C++
<micahjohnston>
because if your ai occasionally makes a dumb decision or occasionally your physics is slightly unrealistic it's better than having constant frame hiccups
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: this is not the kind of non-correctness that C has
<alexgordon>
certainly if you want security, go with java
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: so games are a good example
<micahjohnston>
but even then some things cannot be pushed aside for the sake of your correctness
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: in games, AI is explicitly dumb (you don't evaluate enough paths, etc.) and physics is computed in floating-point, which is again explicitly non-recise
<alexgordon>
I would never use C and C++ for say a bank, because one buffer overflow and you're fired
<whitequark>
you don't get it
<micahjohnston>
for instance, when writing kernels, you need to be able to mess with memory and processor shit
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: correctness doesn't mean computation of infinite precision
<micahjohnston>
can't be GC'd
<micahjohnston>
I'm not saying you can't write a system from the bottom up that's your kind of correct
<alexgordon>
whitequark: what is your argument? that the cases where C and C++ is required is vanishingly small?
<micahjohnston>
I'm just saying that the way computers and OS's are today you kind of need C or something with its control
<alexgordon>
if not we appear to be arguing past each other
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: check out Habit, a dialect of Haskell which is suitable for writing OS kernels
<whitequark>
GC'd
<micahjohnston>
yes yes yes i know
<micahjohnston>
i know about that shit
<whitequark>
and Singularity
<whitequark>
and ...
<whitequark>
alexgordon: no
<whitequark>
alexgordon: that C is a shitty language for its domain, because of its type system which represents the underlying machine really poor, weak typing, rampant undefined behavior
<whitequark>
and lack of meaningful mapping of high-level operations back to machine code
<whitequark>
ironically.
<micahjohnston>
I know about Singularity
<micahjohnston>
it's fucking built from the bottom up with the assumption that all code is going to be statically verified and written in C#
<micahjohnston>
so
<micahjohnston>
not useful for running software that already existsw
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: it's a kernel, isn't it?
<micahjohnston>
I agree with your ideals
<whitequark>
so it will require you to write drivers in C#, no big deal
* micahjohnston
sighs
<alexgordon>
whitequark: I agree
<micahjohnston>
…I explicitly acknowledged creating new systems from the ground up like Singularity
<alexgordon>
whitequark: but java is a shitty language for C's domain
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: userspace can be in anything, you have virtual memory
<micahjohnston>
"no big deal"
<alexgordon>
java isn't even IN C's domain
<micahjohnston>
except for every already existing drivefr
<micahjohnston>
no big deal at all
<whitequark>
alexgordon: sure, I just thrown out java as an example because hotspot asymptotically approaches C in raw computation speed
<whitequark>
should've said that completely and out loud :p
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: i agree with your ideals but saying that every software developer ever should throw away everything and use a new language and mathematically verify their shit and not care about optimization
<alexgordon>
whitequark: only in benchmarks, not in practice
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: you still miss the point
<micahjohnston>
all right, what is your point
<whitequark>
again
<alexgordon>
whitequark: there's nothing that can touch C and C++, nothing remotely popular anyway
<whitequark>
micahjohnston: 1. C is a shitty language for its very domain. 2. when you design a language, you design it so shooting yourself in the foot is hard.
<whitequark>
you do NOT pour undefined behavior all around just for fun.
<micahjohnston>
whitequark: i agree with both of those things
<alexgordon>
whitequark: have you read the llvm ruminations on undefined behaviour?
<alexgordon>
and why it has to exist
<micahjohnston>
but you are advocating tradeoffs that are unacceptable for many working software developers
<whitequark>
alexgordon: of course
<whitequark>
I very well understand why UB exists
<whitequark>
and some forms of UB *must* exist if you want sensible optimizations
<whitequark>
for example if you call a function and calling convention doesn't match, it's UB
<whitequark>
it MAKES SENSE
<alexgordon>
I think there is a temptation, not just in computer science, but in all academia, to ignore problems you don't want to solve
<whitequark>
however, if you push 1 in the sign bit and it's UB, and because some shitty sentence in the C standard declares that if you have UB, then everything before and everything after is ALSO undefined
<alexgordon>
so we end up with all these useless useless languages from academia, which only work in a made-up world in the author's head
<whitequark>
and due to that, optimizer completely wrecks your algorithm for no real reason
<whitequark>
that makes NO sense
<whitequark>
and has no right to exist
<alexgordon>
but real languages have to deal with stuff like "if we use the wrong syntax, then nobody will use the language, and it won't get any libraries"
<whitequark>
originally it was added to the standard because
<whitequark>
you want to know why?
<whitequark>
you'd never fucking guess
<alexgordon>
computer scientists never look at these problems, they just pretend they don't exist. then they complain about the state of programming languages. lol.
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
(I'll comment on the academic stuff later.)
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: for once i am taking your side in this argument
<whitequark>
well
<alexgordon>
thank joseph smith for that
<whitequark>
it was added because some shitty architecture in a basement of some dick in the committee was non-2's-complement
<whitequark>
I can grok why this sentence was in C89. ok. there still were such architectures.
<whitequark>
they are extinct for thirty years by now, +/-
<whitequark>
why is it in C99? why is it in C11 still?
<alexgordon>
whitequark: file a defect report ;)
<whitequark>
alexgordon: oh, I know the answer.
<whitequark>
because nothing leaves the C standard. it's the official stance.
<whitequark>
re the academia
<joelteon>
because then something might break
<whitequark>
these little toy languages exist
<whitequark>
not to be used in someone's real-world project, but to explore possibly interesting things
<whitequark>
look at smalltalk. where is it? however, its object model very well lives on (and rocks!) in ruby.
<whitequark>
this is how it is supposed to work!
<alexgordon>
right, but 90% of them are built around this insane tower of academia speak
<whitequark>
don't be such a lazy bitch
<whitequark>
it's not exactly hard to read papers. first few are, maybe. that's about it.
<alexgordon>
I want to keep my virginity
<whitequark>
meh.
<whitequark>
so, to continue
<alexgordon>
if I start to read these stuff then I might start churning out such dense... *tries to think of a nice word*
<whitequark>
the stuff like "wrong syntax" and so on, the real problems you're mentioning, they do not NEED an academic to solve them
<alexgordon>
I'm sure it makes sense in their own little world, and I'm happy for them that they're happy
<whitequark>
they need a neckbeard in mozilla's basement, and a huge PR team
<whitequark>
leave problems to people who solve them most efficiently.
<purr>
<incomprehensibly> GET YOURSELF TO THE BUTTERFLY LOUNGE AND FIND YOURSELF A BIG LAYYDAYY
<alexgordon>
but the fact is that programming languages are currently advanced by amateurs because the professionals are MIA
<whitequark>
it's laughable
<alexgordon>
the theory of programming languages is so devoid of reality
<whitequark>
where exactly PLs are advanced by amateurs?
<alexgordon>
whitequark: amateurs in the programming language design sense
<whitequark>
I look at popular stuff around, and it's either no advancement, or they're no amateurs.
<alexgordon>
i.e. most languages are not designed by anybody with any actual experience in the field, because the "field" of programming language design is not based in reality
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
not true
<alexgordon>
it's like string theorists trying to advance medical practice... :P
<joelteon>
what's a language designed by someone with experience in the field?
<joelteon>
C?
<whitequark>
there are quite a few counterexamples
<whitequark>
Rust? it's the simplest
<whitequark>
it's not really that much of an advancement, but you can hardly deny involvement with the field of PL, as you call it
<alexgordon>
funny about rust, that the only thing that was from "field", was typesafe
<alexgordon>
and well...
<whitequark>
and I repeat
<joelteon>
typesafe is kind of a big deal
<whitequark>
you don't need to be an academic to solve what's essentially engineering, and PR problems
<alexgordon>
joelteon: they cut it
<alexgordon>
joelteon: for not being useful enough
<joelteon>
oh
<alexgordon>
whitequark: just goes to prove my point that the academics are in a world of their own though...
<whitequark>
alexgordon: huh/
<joelteon>
wait
<whitequark>
academics don't exist to solve your petty engineering problems, which are conceptually same over the last fifty years
<joelteon>
they dropped type safety?
<alexgordon>
joelteon: no, typeSAFE
<joelteon>
...
<joelteon>
ok explain
<whitequark>
the company is called typesafe.
<alexgordon>
or I think that's what it was called
<alexgordon>
typesomething
<alexgordon>
oh typestate
<alexgordon>
close enough :P
<whitequark>
basically a bunch of ivory tower guys with a superiority complex and an incredibly clusterfucky language
<joelteon>
wait what are you talking about
<micahjohnston>
hahaha
<micahjohnston>
typestate vs typesafe
<joelteon>
i thought we were speaking of the metaphysical concept of type safety
<micahjohnston>
typestate was gonna be like contracts/hoare logic
<alexgordon>
an honest mistake :(
<micahjohnston>
yknow
<joelteon>
o_o
<micahjohnston>
so likek, encoding states in the type
<joelteon>
oh, that's a thing I have no idea what it is
<whitequark>
I read an article from the author of that feature iirc
<alexgordon>
typestate was one of the more practical things to come out of academia... and yet it was designed that it gave too little and took too much
<whitequark>
tldr: he himself couldn't really untangle the mess it created
<whitequark>
alexgordon: hey
<whitequark>
you like your little c compiler, right?
<alexgordon>
I dunno if I'd call it "little"
<whitequark>
do you realize that it's full, to the very top, of various academic stuff?
<whitequark>
starting right with SSA
<whitequark>
you don't see it much in the language, that's true.
<alexgordon>
this is not what I'm talking about though
<alexgordon>
SSA has nothing to do with language design, per se
<joelteon>
oh, cool
<joelteon>
typestate is pretty neat
<whitequark>
>practical things to come out of academia
<alexgordon>
NO IT ISN'T. BAD JOELTEON
<whitequark>
well, if you meant in the context of language design
<joelteon>
I think it is
<whitequark>
maybe
<joelteon>
I like how calling a function on a closed fh could conceivably be a compile time error
<whitequark>
that's linear types
<whitequark>
I think they still have it in rust
<whitequark>
or was it that it forced you to always close the file? whatever, I guess these are equivalent
<joelteon>
but I thought you said that wouldn't be practical in real life
<joelteon>
no wait that was alexgordon
<alexgordon>
yeah see in furrow you just pass a path around :P
<whitequark>
differentt hings
<alexgordon>
and python solved that to the most part with "with" constructs
<joelteon>
yeah, but python uses GC
<alexgordon>
didn't used to
<alexgordon>
also it can hardly be called a GC
<alexgordon>
it's the worst damn GC ever shipped
<joelteon>
still not as fast as C
<alexgordon>
python's GC, singlehandedly, proves that capitalism is necessary for society
<whitequark>
alexgordon: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<whitequark>
also python's with constructs are poor man's blocks
<whitequark>
but doesn't matter
<joelteon>
I just realized what the difference between iOS and Android is
<alexgordon>
list of companies that have shipped good GC's: Google, Apple, Microsoft, Sun/Oracle...
<joelteon>
cause they do look similar
<alexgordon>
that's IT
<alexgordon>
you need at least $1B to ship a good GC
<alexgordon>
or you're fucked
<whitequark>
heh
<devyn>
alexgordon: who made the GC that GHC uses? because it's pretty great
<joelteon>
devyn: pretty sure it sucks, as it wasn't made by a corporation