<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: the IR UART is UART3 and nokia doesn't officially use UART3 - inofficially (not in schematics) UART3 is debug port on testpoints under battery
<dos1>
dammit, I can't instlal dependences for backupmenu
<DocScrutinizer05>
sucks!
<ds2>
bah
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: Neo900 has a full fledged set of exploits on UART3 ;-)
<wpwrak>
having "dos1" and "ds2" is kinda confusing ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe, not here, they got different hash and thus different color
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it's userland, it hardly canmess with IR LED when lirc_rx51 isn't loaded
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway even with lirc_rx51 and lirc_dev modules loaded, my N900 doesn't blick IR LED
demure_ is now known as demure
<dos1>
modinfo shows the same stuff
<dos1>
no ir related module is loaded
<DocScrutinizer05>
hen it's kernel
<DocScrutinizer05>
then*
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wouldn't see a way for a userland app to make IR LED flash without lirc_rx51 module loaded
<DocScrutinizer05>
some funny hacker thought it's a useful indicator for +whatever*
<DocScrutinizer05>
not considering that it eats battery
<DocScrutinizer05>
KP I bet bucks now, not only cents
<dos1>
I should have KP already installed on some other n900
<dos1>
but which one? :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe, I know I don't
<DocScrutinizer05>
never +really* trusted that kernel. Now I have a reason why
<DocScrutinizer05>
one more reason
<DocScrutinizer05>
I2C fsckup was another one, though that got fixed after I blamed the nasty bug
<dos1>
btw. white kbd frame looks funny in the dark - leaks light
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly, not locking a hw interface for a serial data transmission, how leete is *that*?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for those casual readers not understanding what I talk about: it's about as evil as not locking your line priter for completing one job before starting another one
<DocScrutinizer05>
just that in this case it's not paper but chips that might get wasted
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, there _are_ chips on N900 I2C bus that might get damaged by sending garbled data to them
<DocScrutinizer05>
so not locking I2C interface during the time the driver does a transmission is exactly what you get when hackers without a clue of hardware mess with kerbel device drivers
<DocScrutinizer05>
kernel*
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<Vegeshite_mite>
so will the neo900 have a modular cpu board design like the dragonbox-pyra/raspberry pi2?
<Vegeshite_mite>
for future proofing
<Vegeshite_mite>
or is the xpu board fixed
<Vegeshite_mite>
ie non upgradeable
<Vegeshite_mite>
anybody
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pyra has no "modular CPU" in that sense. What Pyra does is using a soldered into place OMAP5 module that comes with a few external components like capacitors, clocks etc, but that doesn't change nature of the product, you still can't change the CPU module
<Vegeshite_mite>
huh?
<DocScrutinizer05>
neither has Neo900
<Vegeshite_mite>
the nature of the cpu module is that it is a module with a cpu on it... this allows the pyra to have future cpu upgrades
<DocScrutinizer05>
the reason for Pyra to use OMAP5 module is simply that TI doesn't sell the OMAP5 chip to aftermarkets in low quanties, they obviously don't trust in small companies - without help by a TI field engineer at location for a few months - being able to bring up a working OMAP5 design
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, this rationale applies to a module just 100% identical like to a chip
<Vegeshite_mite>
lol what... i guess the answer is no the neo900 doesnt have a modularized cpu board unlike pyra's daughterboard or pi2's compute module
<DocScrutinizer05>
when there will be a new better OMAP5 module that's drop in compatible whith what Pyra uses, then production(!) can use the new module instead the recent one. Same applies for a better OMAP3 chip and the DM3730 used in Neo900
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<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway sorry but nope, Neo900 is not modular
<Vegeshite_mite>
yeah but then users would have to pay for an entirely new board
<Vegeshite_mite>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, and same applies to Pyra
<DocScrutinizer05>
user can NOT change the CPU in Pyra
<DocScrutinizer05>
no way
<wpwrak>
Vegeshite_mite: modularity at this level is basically infeasible. just don't get mislead by the press - project Ara is not about making a real-life phone :)
<Vegeshite_mite>
never heard of ara but from what i hear the pyras been dezigned so thst non-omap chips can also be sropped in in the future an option
<Vegeshite_mite>
in fact im pretty sure the pi2's bcm2836 sodimm board xould be adapted to run in tge pyra's main board
<wpwrak>
well, in a way you could say something similar about the neo900 if you *really* wanted to: it has two principal boards, so you could replace the one with the CPU (and many other things)
<wpwrak>
but then, that's not very likely to make sense
<Vegeshite_mite>
it has 2 boards?
<wpwrak>
and the same should apply to the pyra, too (don't know much about it, but that's about the best modularity you can get without doing stupid things)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, see the very fine video deonstrating the original idea
<Vegeshite_mite>
aorrt cant watch videos currently at work
<Vegeshite_mite>
is there a forum post/schems
<Vegeshite_mite>
isnt pyra using a cortex a15 by the way
<bencoh>
yes, they are
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the CPU in the SoC
<DocScrutinizer05>
they use a TI OMAP5
<Vegeshite_mite>
thats pretty top of the line for a community project/...
<DocScrutinizer05>
how's Pyra a community project?
<Vegeshite_mite>
well they have donations...
<DocScrutinizer05>
err
<Vegeshite_mite>
at the pyra forum...
<Vegeshite_mite>
which is the *community*
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever, please ask on #dragonbox-pyra
<DocScrutinizer05>
while Pyra is sort of our "sister project" we're not really competent to answer any questions relating to Pyra
<Vegeshite_mite>
ok is there a link that has a pic of neo900's boards
<DocScrutinizer05>
there must be pics in talk.maemo.org main thread. Sorry I don't have a link at hand right now
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB the boards don't even exist yet in their final form, we're still in R&D phase
<Vegeshite_mite>
it would be nice to see that sister project thing manifest itself in hardware... ie a modularized compute module... that way you have more swappability in case theres a hickup in produxtion
<DocScrutinizer05>
please reread what wpwrak and me explained above
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's no such module in Pyra either
<Vegeshite_mite>
so you could just call ed and say hey our chips are backlogged can you guys send us 500 modules xd
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope we can't since Neo900 is based on OMAP3, nit OMAP5. For some very sound reasons
<Vegeshite_mite>
just saying use the same daughterboard...
<Vegeshite_mite>
oh
<Vegeshite_mite>
what reasons
<Vegeshite_mite>
software?
<DocScrutinizer05>
first of all the OMAP5 doesn't fir into N900 case and we want to build a device that's compatible to N900 on software level too
<Vegeshite_mite>
i think pandora's also omap 3 no?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pandora (new) has exactly same DM3730
<wpwrak>
and modularized = you make the overall design several times more complex. so it will not allow you to easily dodge problems. and you won't save money. also, in a mobile phone upgrading one thing while keeping all the rest is usually not very attractive
<Vegeshite_mite>
how big is omap5?
<DocScrutinizer05>
too big for Neo900
<Vegeshite_mite>
wprak yes but neo900 is no ordibary phone.. it isnt being buikt for the general phone ,arket
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry afk, hedache and busy
<Vegeshite_mite>
wpwrak wouldnt it allow for the testing of the omap chip separate from wveryting elss
<wpwrak>
Vegeshite_mite: yes, but we still want it to be somewhat affordable ;-) you get modular systems where you either have a HUGE volume (PC) so you can do whatever you want, or where each item is incredibly expensive, so you keep them forever. like those shops that still have PDP-11s :)
<wpwrak>
we're pretty much doing that. but that's in R&D, not in the final product
<Vegeshite_mite>
why not judt keep it... if some people get a bad cpu they can just send back the cpu and not the whole unit
<wpwrak>
also, in R&D we can have something that would need a large bag to carry around, while that wouldn't be so appealing for the product
<wpwrak>
err, R&D = beagle board xM + external power supply + Neo900-specific interface boards + delicate cabling between them :)
<wpwrak>
that's the stuff that thrives in the lab, but dies very quickly outside it ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
look, our CPU has a 515 ball/pin 0.4mm pitch BGA footprint. A socket for such stuff is about as large as the whole Neo900 and costs up to 1000 bucks
<DocScrutinizer05>
still want "modularity"?
<Vegeshite_mite>
hmmm
<Vegeshite_mite>
it isnt thst big w/ the pyra
<DocScrutinizer05>
SNCE PYRA HAS NO MODULAR CPU
<Vegeshite_mite>
maybe buy one from ed and play around with it
<Vegeshite_mite>
no the daughterboard
<Vegeshite_mite>
with the soc on it
<DocScrutinizer05>
show me that daughterboard!
<wpwrak>
pyra is ~341 ccm while neo900 will be about 146 ccm
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<wpwrak>
if modularity is of utmost importance, consider nano-ITX or whatever they call them now, and a nice car battery ;-)
<wpwrak>
bonus feature: you'll have more muscles than schwarzenegger in no time ;-)
<wpwrak>
that may actually be a market niche: the "workout" phone. 10 kg / 20 lbs. watch the ladies faint when you elegantly pull it from your .. hmm .. scabbard ? :)
<Vegeshite_mite>
they managed to make a smart phone out of a pi... so its notbthat bad in terms of bulkiness
<Vegeshite_mite>
one even runs sailfishos
<Vegeshite_mite>
and those were built not with a custom made pcb for the compute module either... those are the standard off the shelf raspberry pis w/ ethernet and all xd
<DocScrutinizer05>
please keep in mind that we're restricted to a already defined rather small case, and even your "doughterboard" in Pyra is actually almost identical in both size and holding 1/3 of components of our UPPER PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
that "daugtherboard" wouldn't even fit into N900 case
<ds2>
*yaw*
<ds2>
*yawn*
<Vegeshite_mite>
make a *bigger* case ... i always felt the n900's keyboard was a bit too compact
<Vegeshite_mite>
xd
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have sound reasons why Neo900 looks like it does. When Pyra has all the features you prefer then why not going for a Pyra instead of trying to turn Neo900 into a Pyra-too
<wpwrak>
i guess we could bolt a nice 10" screen on a HHKB. fill the empty space with the rest. that ought to work nicely ;-)
<Vegeshite_mite>
because pyra isnt a phone... not in this iteration anyways... not untill the have a secondary screen on the other half of a top half
<DocScrutinizer05>
then please try to talk *then* into getting those missing features. Neo900 design is finalized
<DocScrutinizer05>
*them*
<Vegeshite_mite>
its an ultraportable that has telephony capabilities but at tgis point using it as a main phone beings baxk memories of ngage style taco talking
<ds2>
the Neo900 form factor works
<ds2>
I have done a tablet before using the BBC and it just doesn't work well in the physical sense
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: just waiting for someone to ask for a 19" rack-mountable version of neo900 ;-)
<ds2>
so unless you have modeled it....
<ds2>
wpwrak: IIRC - some has done a OMAP3 based 19" rackable thing...
<ds2>
someoen
<Vegeshite_mite>
yea the n900 form factor is nice but would be nice to have a jolla toh sized keyboard
<ds2>
someone
<wpwrak>
hah, we already have a proof of concept then ! showing that it IS possible to put small things into big racks ;-)
<ds2>
would be nice is to have things in a N800 formfactor ;)
<Vegeshite_mite>
the n900's keyboard was always too small imo
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you can get N810 cases and displays and touchpanels and stuff in quantities, we can consider doing that
<DocScrutinizer05>
still a huge problem with antennas but that *might* be manageable
<ds2>
the N800 will always be my favorite
<Vegeshite_mite>
so since its an omap3 you could run pandora's pvr drivers?
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: are they flex or ceramic antennas?
<DocScrutinizer05>
which ones?
<ds2>
the ones you have a huge problem with
<DocScrutinizer05>
the ones I have a huge problem with are the non-existing ones
<bencoh>
Vegeshite_mite: we have pvr drivers for n900 and n9
<ds2>
blah
<Vegeshite_mite>
is it the same sgx as in omap3
<bencoh>
(and hoping the pvr in neo900 isnt too different)
<bencoh>
they're both omap3
<bencoh>
well, the three of them :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: N9 has same SoC as Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
ergo same PVR
<Vegeshite_mite>
well apparently it is in the new omap ... but since pandora's kernel's open u shouldnt have any issues
<DocScrutinizer05>
PVR drivers are not kernel land
<DocScrutinizer05>
the problematic stuff are the libs
<Vegeshite_mite>
well the entire pandora os is open no
<ds2>
no.
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: hmmm ... iirc we checked and it was a different model/revision or something ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, it's HS version, we use GP version
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: thanks, useful link :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: regarding SGX versions, I doubt TI would inroduce "regressions" in new GFX cores that would render old drivers incompatible
<bencoh>
dunno ... we'll see :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually it's just new cores introducing new additional features and fixing SiErr
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless a workaround in an old driver *depends* on a SiErr being around, old drivers should work on new chip revisions
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't say for sure since there's no docs available for the PVR, which is where the problem actually starts. But what I said above is based on best common practice seen everywhere in industry
<freemangordon>
and even then, we still have drivers made esp for the rev in DM3730
<DocScrutinizer05>
dang! "hibernate (suspend to disk)" fals on my PC/KDE - lcoks screen instead :-(
<DocScrutinizer05>
locks*
<DocScrutinizer05>
hi freemangordon!
<freemangordon>
hi!
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/ bbl
* DocScrutinizer05
got a UPS to hook up to PC
<DocScrutinizer05>
which means shut down the PC for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
stinks. (lizerally) - otherwise so far it's not looking particularly bad
<bencoh>
:))
<DocScrutinizer05>
FSP
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "manual" is a joke, but then otoh it's basically almost useless for "good" UPS as well
<Vegeshite_mite>
well actually the pyra guys are having a hell of a time from what ive heard with the move from omap3 to 5's pvr... driver wise... as u said since its all closed...
<Vegeshite_mite>
speaking of which are there any socs out there with full mesa3d/ogl support or is it all ogles
<DocScrutinizer05>
tried NUT, gave up, installed ViewPower which sort of works
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the USB link of UPS, linux doing a endless loop on detecting a USB HID http://privatepaste.com/c0946f21f0 - so I gave up on that as well and connected the UPS with serial<->USB adapter
<ds2>
yes
<ds2>
quite a few
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<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: all ok?
<freemangordon>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<freemangordon>
I am trying to inject n9 xloader code in bb xloader
<DocScrutinizer05>
I gonna unplug the HDMI cable I attached, it's useless anyway
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<dos1>
DocScrutinizer05: my old n900 with cssu-thumb doesn't blink (it has lircd and irreco installed though)
<dos1>
modprobe lirc_rx51 on blinking n900 doesn't stop blinking
<DocScrutinizer05>
reflash it to stock
<dos1>
nah, I want to figure it out
<dos1>
that thumb one has kernel power 52, blinkin one has 53
<ds2>
wheeeeee light swap worked!
<DocScrutinizer05>
light swap isn't really complicated. When you are lucky and don't break the main flex connector
<ds2>
i suspect the call to replace all the screws has more to do with making sure the right loctite is on there then anything else
<DocScrutinizer05>
no loctite on screws. It's about making sure they are fresh and unworn
<ds2>
there is loctite on the glue
<ds2>
both units had it
<ds2>
that blue dot on the screws threads is it
<DocScrutinizer05>
never seen it so far
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I didn't look
<DocScrutinizer05>
when there's a blue dot then yes, of course that's loc
<ds2>
what's odd is of the 8 screws I took out, only 6 had them
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
that might exlain why I never noticed it, maybe my screws rarely ever had any
<ds2>
problem is one of the units was bought used from amazon and the screen bezel is loose suggesting someone previously had done something already
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway Nokia N900 service manual doesn't mention any loctite. So either some rework been done or the screws Nokia recommends already come with some sort of lock varnish, though I dunno how that would work when it's on screw for months or years before mounting the screw
<DocScrutinizer05>
or some of their factories used loctite and yet they didn't think it's a good idea to recommend it in service manual