<jonsger>
CaptHindsight: but only GSM, no UMTS/LTE...
<bencoh>
openbsc isnt a terminal (customer-side) implementation ... and osmocombb only has gsm support
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: please stay around, I'm in a hurry but will tty later. very interested
<CaptHindsight>
I'll stay here until the my system crashes :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D ta
<DocScrutinizer05>
afk for ~90min
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<wpwrak>
CaptHindsight: not depending on nokia parts would be nice. however, there's also the question about material properties. i.e., if we have a nice case that just cracks during regular use, that wouldn't be so nice in the end
<wpwrak>
but you have STL capabilities then ? that sounds very interesting :)
<wpwrak>
ah wait, that was SLA. what's that again ...
<wpwrak>
ah yes, the same. good :)
<CaptHindsight>
wpwrak: yes, we make the resins as well
<CaptHindsight>
some are as tough as delrin
<CaptHindsight>
ABS is no problem
<wpwrak>
oh, wow
<wpwrak>
can you usefully work from STL meshes or do your devices work with proprietary formats ?
<CaptHindsight>
like I said we were asked so many times about making a new mainboard for the Thinkpads like the T60
<CaptHindsight>
but when we looked everything over it looked better to just make everything
<CaptHindsight>
whatever format
<wpwrak>
having control over the case is definitely convenient. also, it probably takes just as long to figure out all the details and quirks of an existing design than making a new one
<CaptHindsight>
my only limitation is using open CAD software
<wpwrak>
freecad ? :)
<CaptHindsight>
it's like being forced to use a cheap 206 piece tool set to build and engine and 98 pieces are hex keys
<bencoh>
:)
<CaptHindsight>
I run NX, Creo, SW, Catia etc
<CaptHindsight>
and Cadence/Orcad and Allegro for pcb's
<wpwrak>
hmm, all very proprietary
<CaptHindsight>
I have others like Altium
<CaptHindsight>
someone with far more patience can translate files :)
<wpwrak>
we use eagle for the pcb. we don't have any cad yet in the project.
<CaptHindsight>
well all you need are stp, igs etc for the mechanical
<CaptHindsight>
and gerbers for pcb's
<wpwrak>
well, for the fab
<wpwrak>
it's also nice if using the "sources" doesn't require software that costs a fortune
<CaptHindsight>
well they sort of work
<wpwrak>
eagle should be no problem. i'd even use kicad :)
<CaptHindsight>
Eagle is farther along than the open parametric modeling
<CaptHindsight>
brl, freecad etc
<wpwrak>
yes, i did some 3d cad work with freecad. nothing that complex, though
<CaptHindsight>
a few wanted consumer items then I'll be making more medical diagnostic tools
<Openbot>
name is nice
<CaptHindsight>
DNA sequencers, printers, etc
<wpwrak>
disc with cylindical cut-outs ? that's not so hard. oh, i should mention that i drive freecad from scripts. i find the ui useless for anything than visualization and exploration. but that's okay - i like scripts :)
<CaptHindsight>
nobody is making the keyboard anymore?
<CaptHindsight>
oh, or just the frame?
<wpwrak>
basically the same, but about 2 mm taller (was it 1.5 mm ? don't remember). there would thus be a little wall to be added
<CaptHindsight>
pretty easy
<wpwrak>
yes, that's the minimum we need
<wpwrak>
i was hoping you'd say that ;-)))
<CaptHindsight>
I can make a completely different case
<CaptHindsight>
the omap supports higher res displays
<CaptHindsight>
I could scale it up to 6" or something
<Openbot>
costs ?
<CaptHindsight>
keep the slider keyboard style
<CaptHindsight>
Openbot: for manufacturing?
<wpwrak>
please don't forget that a) there are a lot of items that still need to fit and b) we still want this to be roughly the shape of a n900
<Openbot>
yes
<bencoh>
this all sounds like a neo900v2 :)
<CaptHindsight>
cases in low volume could $25
<Openbot>
if he can make a case i suppose he can fit them too
<wpwrak>
so a new case that rearranges internal details could be interesting (note however that there are things like lenses that are integrated into the case)
<CaptHindsight>
could be
<CaptHindsight>
the camera lens is no problem
<Openbot>
low volumes = capthindsight
<CaptHindsight>
i spend half my time in China
<Openbot>
oh my
<CaptHindsight>
so sourcing components is not a problem
<wpwrak>
Openbot: if you grow the case for a larger display, then you need to reengineer the whole slider system, source a new display, find out if you're breaking sw compatibility where it matters, and so on
<CaptHindsight>
does the GUI have some hard limits on screen res?
<Openbot>
chineese are crazy heck they are best xerox machines
<CaptHindsight>
yes, they are like xerox machines, not engineers
<CaptHindsight>
copy yes, invent no
<wpwrak>
CaptHindsight: i'm not sure if we even can change the screen resolution. but maemo compatibility isn't really my domain.
<CaptHindsight>
but just give them plans and away they go
<CaptHindsight>
then you just have to watch for corners being cut
<CaptHindsight>
25 cent part being replaced by inferior 20 cent part
<wpwrak>
oh, they have engineers, too. even good ones. but you probably can't afford them ;-)
<Openbot>
yeah i repair a lot of chineese phones lol
<CaptHindsight>
good is subjective :)
<Openbot>
subjective is bad
<CaptHindsight>
I work on lots of new tech
<CaptHindsight>
printing pcb's using only fluids
<Openbot>
worst i see is same pcb components just diff sizes
<Openbot>
by printed you mean those wafer thin bords or
<Openbot>
flexible ribbon like bords
<CaptHindsight>
wpwrak: the high screen res is another option I'm tossing out there for consideration
<CaptHindsight>
maybe some of the GUI people will chime in
<CaptHindsight>
Openbot: multilayer pcb's like in your laptop or phone
<CaptHindsight>
printing is faster than plating, etching, gluing, drilling
<wpwrak>
we have a lot of backwards-compatibility constraints. else, we'd have to redo major portions of middleware and applications. and some of that stuff hasn't even been rev-engineered yet
<wpwrak>
so that would be the sort of rabbit hole we don't want to go down
<Openbot>
wpwark say if maemo supports x resolution only and new display got x and y res is it a problem ?
<CaptHindsight>
wpwrak: yeah, enough work as it is
<wpwrak>
Openbot: i don't know. freemangordon and DocScrutinizer05 probably do (as well as several others i'm not thinking of at the moment)
<CaptHindsight>
the omap chosen does run android
<CaptHindsight>
and Linux
<wpwrak>
yes, but the goal is maemo. if it runs other things, that's of course nice
<Openbot>
capthindsight yeah but what are those boards called that are wafer thin
<wpwrak>
another tricky bit we have is the keymat
<CaptHindsight>
Openbot: are you thinking of the flexible pcb's? polyester tape with copper traces?
<Openbot>
yes capthindsight and they are a real nuiance to repair even some components come attached atop them sometimes
<wpwrak>
there's more to it than meets the eye: first of all, the domes are very small. then there's a light spreader on them (the LEDs for kbd backlight are on the upper long side, tucked under the white stuff)
<Wizzup>
Openbot: what do you ask wrt resolution?
<Wizzup>
s/what/why/
<Openbot>
typing
<CaptHindsight>
wpwrak: no big deal
<CaptHindsight>
that's the kind of thing I work on all the time
<CaptHindsight>
and developing the materials as well to perform the way you want
<Wizzup>
Openbot: ?
<Openbot>
say maemo supports x res and new display got multiple resolution that are operable and x being one of them so can maemo use the x resolution for now in the new display
<CaptHindsight>
there's this great cellphone mall in Hong Kong near the Lady Market
<CaptHindsight>
any part you need
<bencoh>
"multiple resolutions" doesn't really exist with LCD screen
<Wizzup>
bencoh: I think he means a similar screen with higher res in same size
<Openbot>
i dont know about that bencoh
<wpwrak>
CaptHindsight: seems that DocScrutinizer05 should take a week of vacation in china and you give him a guided tour ;-))
<CaptHindsight>
people bring in their cracked case and displays and they have figured out how to take apart the lamination's and glue for the case
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<Openbot>
capthindsight i do that i.e cracked case glue
<Openbot>
wizzup no bigger display with higher resolution but one that also supports lower res that maemo needs at the moment
<CaptHindsight>
that might work
<CaptHindsight>
when maemo runs it scales
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<Openbot>
capthindsight i even change the reflector at the back of the display at times :D
<CaptHindsight>
we'll have to see how they wrote it
<wpwrak>
CaptHindsight: i suppose you have optical high-resolution 3D scanners ?
<wpwrak>
i.e., 50 um or better ?
<Openbot>
docscrutinizer05 come fast :D
<CaptHindsight>
I have to go for a bit, 3 meters from keyboard
<wpwrak>
safe journey ! ;-)
<Openbot>
lol
<Openbot>
wpwark how much electricty your scanning mill use
<Openbot>
wpwrak ^
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<wpwrak>
hmm, the supply is 19 V x 2.1 A, so about 40 W
<wpwrak>
(or less)
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<Openbot>
i thought it to be a power guzzleing monstor
<Openbot>
its just a standerd 40 watt bulb glowing
<Openbot>
the word mill was painting monstrous pictures in my head :D
<CaptHindsight>
another thing to keep in mind is modularity
<CaptHindsight>
the laptops and the auto ECU's are modular since people want so mnay variations or like the car ECU's there are several non-cooperating software projects
<DocScrutinizer51>
we discussed this. it's not feasible for embedded
<CaptHindsight>
the ECU's have the microcontroller on a small carrier board and the IO is all the same
<DocScrutinizer51>
afk, driving
<CaptHindsight>
this way people can pick their software and matching microcontroller but take advantage of the same IO
<CaptHindsight>
same for the phones
<CaptHindsight>
one board with all sorts of different cases
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<CaptHindsight>
back in 10 min
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<CaptHindsight>
back
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<DocScrutinizer51>
'TNO' preety much looks like 'TN0' on original label :-S
<DocScrutinizer51>
tray number zero?
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<DocScrutinizer51>
timing * 0?
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<DocScrutinizer51>
anyway, coffe break over, another few minutes of driving
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<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't even know what's the meaning of !-A506"
<DocScrutinizer05>
all we kmow is "it seems to work on back op a OMAP3 SoC"
<DocScrutinizer05>
of*
<DocScrutinizer05>
typing still impaired fron driving new bicycle
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<threebar>
hey, what ever happened to this phone?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry?
<threebar>
no more updates on the site
<threebar>
oh, lol, I'm blind
<threebar>
now i see the uBlog column haha
<threebar>
hey, did you ever decide on whether to use that multitouch controller for resistive screens? i think i came by and suggested it about a year ago, and you actually managed to source it
<CaptHindsight>
kce00e00ca-a506 out of production multi chip package?
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<CaptHindsight>
if you already have boards then I'd check with the suppliers with old stock in Hong Kong/Shenzhen
<CaptHindsight>
if you haven't made pcb's yet then I'd look for a different device
<CaptHindsight>
NAND(512MB)+LPDDR2(512MB) is the largest device Samsung currently makes K5A4G4GQCA
<DocScrutinizer05>
512MB RAM is basically a NOGO
<DocScrutinizer05>
our customers don't accept this
<CaptHindsight>
yeah, too little
<DocScrutinizer05>
1GB RAM is a key feature and selling point of Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
PCB is still in prototype phase, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
but SoC is already finalized, we will go for DM3730
<CaptHindsight>
Micron and Microsemi only have 512MB lpddr and 4Bb NAND
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: could you please send a shot email note to contact AT neo900.org? I'd like to have a stable contact, and also publish a sort of err 'cooperation' if you'd not mind
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: we checked available options for the PoP for almost one year, and all we could come up with was KCE00E00CA finally
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even that only after we ripped a N9 apart to see what's in there
<CaptHindsight>
and it's NOS = new old stock
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/shot/short/
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: any idea what means TN0 ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even -A506TN0
<CaptHindsight>
you have tough one, older omap with lpddr2
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I know ;-)
<CaptHindsight>
it was probably custom for Nokia
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we're extremely happy we finally found a source for a few cheips
<DocScrutinizer05>
chips even
<CaptHindsight>
that link I posted earlier said they had 10K pieces
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<CaptHindsight>
more than you'll probably use
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, we seen such links that turned out to be fake
<CaptHindsight>
yeah, you never know
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite a few
<CaptHindsight>
thats China
<CaptHindsight>
and the DM3730 was chosen since the software is already there or most of it?
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<CaptHindsight>
whats the problem with using a more recent omap?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, because of maemo5 - and space reasons. and GTA04 experience
<CaptHindsight>
you're in a nice corner then
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly the latter been a huge argument, together with the pther ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
initially Neo900 been considered "a slightly pimped GTA04"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"easy" ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
well it sorta still is, just s/slightly/heavily/
<DocScrutinizer05>
nice corner? or niche corner? ;-)
<CaptHindsight>
when you run out of options
<DocScrutinizer05>
we had just enough options to make it happen
<CaptHindsight>
if you can't find that MCP device then you're out of luck anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
so far
<CaptHindsight>
or you'll have to make them
<DocScrutinizer05>
we found KCE00E00CA, we're just about to order 500
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah there are a few in genuine maemo5
<DocScrutinizer05>
lot of them already got RE'ed
<DocScrutinizer05>
not all though
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 is also a project to complete this task
<DocScrutinizer05>
not for "us" (the hw building company Neo900 UG) but for the community
<DocScrutinizer05>
(BLOBS) figure PVR
<DocScrutinizer05>
openGL-ES2 3D iirc
<DocScrutinizer05>
we also have some nasty audio enhancement stuff, for calls
<Wizzup>
there will never be a free driver for that gpu anyway
<Wizzup>
[powervr]
<DocScrutinizer05>
yoh
<DocScrutinizer05>
and don't forget about DUH! *flashplayer*
<Openbot>
aww powervr
<Openbot>
and broadcom
<Openbot>
night
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer51: gnash works okayish
<Wizzup>
probably just as well as the installed flash on maemo
<DocScrutinizer05>
good to hear
<Wizzup>
I cannot believe that people use flash on maemo, especially since it is so old
<DocScrutinizer05>
as I said, RE'ing is an ongoing project
<Wizzup>
yep
<Openbot>
nowadays flashplayers come with browser vendors ;- no worries
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now it's not at a stage where I could build a OMAP5 device with all new leet audio and whatnot peripherals and hope to run maemo5 on it, in whatever form
<DocScrutinizer05>
and Neo900 explicitly is made for a "drop in replacement" for N900, incl using the existing repos
<DocScrutinizer05>
the *binaries* in those
<Wizzup>
You can probably never get full compat, but it should mostly be just fine
<Wizzup>
personally I look forward to the hw itself and hopefully decent mainline kernel support
<Openbot>
sites like hotstar.com are inaccesible on devices not having flash or an app
<Wizzup>
Openbot: do I want to open that?
<CaptHindsight>
I'm going to build an open phone in the next few months
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, as kerio trolled, kernel-power-flasher won't prolly work ;-)
<Openbot>
check
<CaptHindsight>
looking over the software now
<Openbot>
capthindsight maemo please
<CaptHindsight>
came in here to see if there was any crossover
<DocScrutinizer05>
crossover between what?
<Openbot>
wizzup check if you can make it work in n900
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: ooh, and could you send that email please?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Openbot: what Wizzup meant is: there's stuff we don't want to open on our regular x86 PCs even
<Openbot>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
horstar.com pretty much sounds like one of those sites
<CaptHindsight>
I'll look over Maemo again, we ran it on a n900 at some pint
<jonsger>
mozilla build a flashplayer in JS (as Firefox Add-On) named shumway
<Openbot>
misspelt its hotstar.com
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer51: exactly
<Openbot>
one can stream tv shows through it
<Openbot>
by star network
<Wizzup>
Openbot: my point was that you don't want to use that on a phone I think
<Wizzup>
and if you want to, use some combination of youtube-dl and mplayer
<Openbot>
wizzup n900 dosent have an app for it so if the site worked
<Wizzup>
Are you missing the point, or?
<Openbot>
wizzup how that works ?
<Wizzup>
even if you had flash 11, I'd still be mostly unusable, kill your battery in an hour, etc.
<Wizzup>
it'd*
<Wizzup>
(not I'd)
<Openbot>
:D
<Openbot>
at least it would work
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: anyway you're more than welcome to stay in this channel (ignore occasional noise please ;-D)
<Wizzup>
Openbot: no, it wouldn't work, everyone would suffer
<Wizzup>
;)
<Wizzup>
yeah I'll stop going OT
<Openbot>
mee too :D
<CaptHindsight>
did you ever have any patent problems with the earlier phones?
<CaptHindsight>
any threats from trolls?
<Openbot>
trolls ?
<CaptHindsight>
patent trolls
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, in OM we had
<Openbot>
ah
<CaptHindsight>
holders of patents on cell phones and applications
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<CaptHindsight>
we can even machine some new magnesium cases
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
can you also build new slider mech?
<CaptHindsight>
I make machines for a large silicon valley fruit company :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's anasty contraption of cheap steel and plastic
<CaptHindsight>
no problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
with some springs and stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
great!
<CaptHindsight>
similar to the droids
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you're already my plan-B when we actually need to build more than 500 complete devices in 6 months
<CaptHindsight>
they would get all bent up over time and start to jam
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm about to secure ~500 refurbished N900 for all the mech parts, LCD, touchpanels etc
<CaptHindsight>
hope you get enough good ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
we can source a maybe 500, but prolly no 1500
<DocScrutinizer05>
so when we finally trip the 1k line, we will need to build our own mech parts, and digitizers, and find LCD that match
<CaptHindsight>
I had a real hard time finding new in the box n900 2 years ago in China
<DocScrutinizer05>
no dice
<DocScrutinizer05>
only refurbished ones available
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, time for dinner. bbl
<DocScrutinizer05>
CaptHindsight: thanks again, much appreciated
<CaptHindsight>
no problem
<CaptHindsight>
anyone know if the screen res can easily be increased in Maemo?
<CaptHindsight>
res beyond the n900 res
<CaptHindsight>
800 × 480
<DocScrutinizer05>
tricky. Try in xephyr
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<merlin1991>
hildon-desktop has some hardcoded values regarding that
<merlin1991>
you'll have to build the cordia version which is resolution independend
<CaptHindsight>
interesting
<freemangordon>
actually it is not that hard, a couple of #defines need to be tweaked
<CaptHindsight>
so I could make a phone with a larger display
<freemangordon>
sure
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<CaptHindsight>
small enough for your pocket, 6" bit with a real keyboard
<CaptHindsight>
bit/but
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (patent troll) that was sisvel (in .it), philip's (and other's) front for cashing in on mp3. they went against openmoko (in .tw), via reseller pulster (in .de)
<wpwrak>
it was really a big mistake by OM: we shipped the device preloaded with all the goodies that contained MP3 codecs, even though mp3 was well known to have issues at that time
<wpwrak>
but it proves that being small and nonprofitable doesn't save you from the kind of attack. at least we didn't get any of the smaller trolls, the ones you'll never see before they attack
<DocScrutinizer51>
all my infra (except Neo900 server) has names of celestial objects
<freemangordon>
oh :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: master of git, you might want to scp from europa to neo900
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<wpwrak>
freemangordon: are the tools etc. there stuff we could show in public ? i.e., in a public git repo ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess yes, pretty much
<memfrob>
Hello all, I'm watching the youtube video for installing CSSU and you need to use Maemo in order to install it, but my n900 reboots all the time and sometimes even loops to where it's hardly usable (hence why I put mer on)
<memfrob>
I'm interested in the neo900 project and would like to get started however.
<wpwrak>
dos1: if you could do the honors then, and create a new repo on http://neo900.org/git/ ?
<memfrob>
I've done research on the reboot loop and the only advice really is to have nokia service it or re-flash with maemo and mess with watchdog / dev mode (which i did countless times)
<memfrob>
thank you i'll give the flash-it-all.sh script a shot, using the maemo firmware and flash tools never helped.
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: yes I know, I just *had* to ask ;p
<DocScrutinizer05>
memfrob: please let me know if my flash-it-all.sh worked for you
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: but from the software point of view, an x86 should be much easier to get going
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I haven't seen a single laptop with x86 so far that could do more than 24h standby with screen dimmed
<DocScrutinizer05>
from battery
<DocScrutinizer05>
N(eo)900 does 1 week, easily
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no, I*m not talking about suspend-to-whatever, real active standby, with response times in the milliseconds range to any event
<specing>
that is true
<specing>
as usual, trade-offs everywhere.
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually for bringing up the hw platform the CPU ISA and architecture is mostly irrelevant
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically same applies for arbitrary apps
<DocScrutinizer05>
kernel and core libs and device drivers are quite a bit dependant on architecture, but ARM is well supported
<DocScrutinizer05>
x86 doesn't give you any head start there either
<DocScrutinizer05>
DTs for ARM are a tad behind of x86
<specing>
ARM gives me a headache all the time
<DocScrutinizer05>
assembler programmer?
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer05: then he should have said: x86
<specing>
all of the devices I've had required custom-patching some old Linux
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<specing>
and then userspace massaging
<Wizzup>
specing: not my experience
<DocScrutinizer05>
debian prolly works on N900 OOTB
<Wizzup>
sheevaplug, most sunxi stuff (olimex, cubieboard), chromebooks all work with mainline
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer05: debian kernel? doubt it :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
why?
<specing>
I was "actively" working with ARMs about 3-4 years ago
<specing>
back then sunxi was stuck on 3.0.something with a 3.4 update being worked on
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, well the newest leetest kernel prolly won't work on N900 yet
<DocScrutinizer05>
you'd need one that's pre-DT I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
and ideally a PM kernel
* enyc
wonders where to ask about mains-lighting-electronics ballasts etc. in IRC
<specing>
no I'm tryinh to bring up this AT91SAM9260 board for the purposes of SPI flashing and the old kernel BUGs trying to update Arch on the sd card and the new kernel does not give me a console, at all
<memfrob>
specing: a lot of sunxi peripherals and such have been hitting mainline, the core part of the boards have been in for awhile though. AHCI, USB, etc. I believe its all upstream, wired ethernet I'm not sure.
<memfrob>
I tinkered a lot with a cubie2 back when 3.4 was the only way to really use it.
* Wizzup
runs grsec/mainline on cubie2's
<memfrob>
i used it for RTOS (preempt-rt)
<DocScrutinizer51>
I guess this starts to cross the sideline of road now, and enters OT land
<memfrob>
sorry.
<DocScrutinizer51>
np ?)
<DocScrutinizer51>
:)
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer51: newest leetest kernels arent on debian ;p
<bencoh>
they're probably still stuck with a pre-DT
<DocScrutinizer51>
possible, I'm not following what they do