<DocScrutinizer05>
wifi is greedy only when searching for APs
<DocScrutinizer05>
my devices run for a week or longer, with ssh session via WIFI open all the time
<DocScrutinizer05>
display backlight eats a _lot_ when bright
<DocScrutinizer05>
and data over cellular may also eat even more
<DocScrutinizer05>
depending on the particular situation, and of course on data volume transmitted
<Oksana>
Well, I am not sure to what extent cracked-ness of LCD may, or may not, increase battery consumption. And I try to keep WiFi Off completely, but it does not remember the setting over restart - not sure if it should... And I do not ever use data over cellular.
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<lobito>
sup guys
<lobito>
anyone knows where to buy the Nokia Standard Toolkit?
<DocScrutinizer05>
does anybody else suffer bad network weather during last 24h?
<DocScrutinizer05>
my mailprovider fails on me fetching the mail, etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
internet radio seems to fail at random, webpages/sites too
<kerio>
illuminati confirmed
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess the damn spammers will stop their business only when they killed it by own activity, by completely ruining email
<DocScrutinizer05>
not only had problems fetching my mails, also had 11 false negatives on spam filtering which usually are 0.3/day
<Transmission>
hello there
<Transmission>
so, is the 3g/gsm module used by the neo 900 open source? It doesn't look like the firmware is but I wanted to be sure.
<bencoh>
it's not
<Transmission>
ah
<Transmission>
curses
<bencoh>
but it's just a usb peripheral connected to main cpu
<Transmission>
the technology has been around for years but no one seems to be working on an open source GSM/3g module
<Transmission>
yes, but it could allow code injection into the kernel, which can be used to spy on you
<bencoh>
what ?
<bencoh>
the driver running on main cpu is opensource (vanilla linux iirc)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
Transmission: sorry you're wrong here. No code injection to kernel from our module
<DocScrutinizer05>
even less of a possibility for that than from your arbitrary printer you hook up to USB of your Linux PC
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually to make sure this won't ever happen been numer 1 or 2 on our list of design guidelines for Neo900
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<Transmission>
but if the module is closed source, can code not be injected to the 3g/gsm modem's kernel (not the phone's) which can send your location, or change the functionality of the unit
<Transmission>
I had a GUardian/Snowden article for this
<wpwrak>
Transmission: we can't prevent the module from being rogue, but we'll have sensors that monitor how it behaves. so if it starts acting strangely, we can tell.
<wpwrak>
small alterations of behaviour may go unnoticed, but then they're not likely to result in major new threats. e.g., if you don't want the module to tell the world where you are, you want it to maintain strict radio silence. if it's already happily chattering away (with your permission), then your location is compromised whether rogue or not
<Transmission>
That's fine, but what if the gsm module's firmware can be remotely altered to remove or change encryption, or to connect to a specific compromised tower, or to chirp your location periodically. These things will mostly just look like normal usage.
<kerio>
transmission is location
<kerio>
as in
<kerio>
transmitting stuff
<kerio>
not as in you
<kerio>
the design guarantees that when the modem is turned off, or in airplane mode, it doesn't transmit shit
<Transmission>
Ok, chat later.
<wpwrak>
Transmission: if you trust any ecryption the module provides (or maybe not) then you're not paranoid enough ;-)
<kerio>
gsm/umts encryption is trash anyway
<Transmission>
That's a good point.
<DocScrutinizer05>
((which can send your location, or change the functionality of the unit)) yes it could, but we would detect that
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: not if it masquerades it between legit data
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry?
<Transmission>
So you mean you should essentially consider anything going to the gsm module as untrusted
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's going to the internet stright from modem, so how could it be trusted, ever?
<kerio>
i meant like
<kerio>
oob data
<DocScrutinizer05>
your location is given away as soon as you start emitting *any* RF by *any* transmitter
<DocScrutinizer05>
nothing the modem could disclose to anybody beyond that
<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: previous locations?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the modem might want to start tansmitting RF without our consent. We monitor that on several independant levels and have means to stop or even block it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I elaborated on that in length several times in the past. Either you don't use GPS, or you don't use modem ever, or you accept that your GPS data is stored on the device and *might* get read out later, whether by modem or by physical access to the device
<DocScrutinizer05>
modem will not scan for base stations when it's not allowed to also connect to them, since that wouldn't make any sense. And we notice if it nevertheless did
<DocScrutinizer05>
we *could* defeat that one threat of modem recording GPS position (when you deliberately enable the GPS while cellular service being off) for later replay to an attacker, by using a GPS chip not attached to the modem. We decided that's too expensive and not in interest of our users since such detached dedicated GPS is inferior in performance (accuracy and speed) to the GPS you already pay for
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you're concerned about GPS positions getting recorded by a modem rogue software hacked particularly for you to spy on your using GPS while cellular disabled, you are adviced not to use Neo900 GPS and rather buy a disposable GPS device that you destroy and dispose after use, so the GPS locations stored in that device are not available for later readout
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<kerio>
DocScrutinizer05: how can you make sure that the modem's gps is disabled?
<kerio>
is it powered separately?
<DocScrutinizer05>
since _every_ GPS device may (and will) store GPS locations it acquired. And every device will have several attack vectors how those stored locations could get read out by an attacker later on, be it when you next time update the firmware of your Garmin, or download your recorded tracks to your PC, be it via sideband RF attacks or by simply picking the device from you and read it out via JTAG
<DocScrutinizer05>
kerio: basically yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we disconnect the antenna, see:
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<DocScrutinizer51>
dang, I ordered a USB-RS232 adaper in shop, What the guy sold to me actually is a USB-PS/2*2 adapter
<DocScrutinizer51>
close, but not close enough
<P-G>
:S
<drathir>
lol me often sadly need describe what i need, bc ppl never heard about that kind of things... ;/
<P-G>
That doesn't even look similar though.
<P-G>
Or sound similar.
<DocScrutinizer51>
silly me. I looked at the package but didn't notice
<P-G>
Can you give it back to them?
<DocScrutinizer51>
sure
<P-G>
At least there's that then.
<DocScrutinizer51>
just think hey already closed for today
<P-G>
How long will it take them to ship in the RS232?
<DocScrutinizer51>
tne shop is local
<DocScrutinizer51>
no shipping just another visit
<P-G>
Oh, ok. That's not too bad then.
<P-G>
I hate it when I get shipped something totally different like that.
<DocScrutinizer51>
yep that's nasty
<P-G>
Order an Intel processor and they send you AMD or something stupid.
<P-G>
Cables and adapters are almost as bad as batteries.
<P-G>
I've got an extra USB to RS232 though if you need it. Probably only take a week to get to you. :p
<DocScrutinizer51>
well I hope the HDMI cable will fit ;)
<P-G>
Lol, video adapters are probably the single worst computer part to shop for.
<P-G>
So many bad models by unknown brands with weird little disfunctions.
<DocScrutinizer51>
tried to also get a USB AM-*mini*B'. Unobtainium
<P-G>
Type A to mini B?
<DocScrutinizer51>
yep
<P-G>
Or A mini to B micro?
<P-G>
Oh.
<P-G>
Yeah, that is pretty weird.
<DocScrutinizer51>
miniB plug to whatever
<P-G>
Trying to plug a USB tranceiver into your phone? :p
<drathir>
dvi-hdmi are worst i guess, bc it able to be different in pins...
<DocScrutinizer51>
trying to actually set up a BB-xM for work
<P-G>
Interesting work.
<DocScrutinizer51>
back to business, maybe shoppe still open
<P-G>
Speaking of which, I've got a laptop to fix.
<P-G>
Good luck. :)
<drathir>
gl keep the proof of buy close...
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<P-G>
OMG
<P-G>
Guess what's wrong with the laptop.
<P-G>
I'm told it won't turn on so I try and, indeed, it won't turn on.
<P-G>
I plug it in and it starts charging normally.
<P-G>
I ask the user if they had tried charging it for a while before trying to turn it on.
<P-G>
They say yes, for about twenty minutes.
<P-G>
I ask if they unplugged the device before trying to turn it on.
<P-G>
They did.
<P-G>
Device turns on fine while plugged in. The battery status is normal...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly battery dead, or simply not charged
<DocScrutinizer05>
I once killed a new EeePC battery by simply suspending the critter to RAM and keep it there until battery went dark
<DocScrutinizer05>
It was literally no 4 weeks old
<DocScrutinizer05>
and in "perfect condition" before it deep-discharged the battery in suspend state
<DocScrutinizer05>
after that, no dice even with charging. Once cell of battery dead like a stone
<DocScrutinizer05>
one*
<P-G>
I'm pretty sure they just didn't charge it enough but I'll check the battery once it's charged a bit. The minimum charge to start for new Li-ion batteries is a percentage, right? Like 2% if it's charging and 5% if it is not? This thing has two large batteries that charge in series.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it depends on your system settings and on your hardware which batery voltage will suffice to boot the system
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway you MUST NOT deep discharge LiIon cells ( like: <3V per cell)
<DocScrutinizer05>
~2119
<infobot>
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
<drathir>
P-G: sometimes if plug not fit correctly the notebook/charger enable shortcut protection...
<DocScrutinizer05>
a cell is considered irreversibly dead, once it trips deep discharge limit
<P-G>
Yeah, I know about that but it's still sort of hard to work with sometimes. Some manufacturors use very weird designs.
<P-G>
Most systems protect their batteries pretty well but some just don't, like a lot of Asus models.
<P-G>
Most phones protect themselves very well, for example. I don't understand why laptop and tablet manufacturors don't put the same effort into their designs.
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<P-G>
I understand bigger devices have higher overhead even when powered off but killing the battery because the system isn't smart enough to shut down when it should is just silly. This is not a new concept, you could say the same thing has always applied to CMOS.
<P-G>
They just need to have the firmware preform battery level checks even while the system is hybernating and shut down if necessary, even if that means losing data. Maybe they could even dump memory to disk if the system has been hybernating for a long time.
<P-G>
Just seems careless to me.
<DocScrutinizer51>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
funny people at beagle. They say BB-xM comes w/o NAND. *Of course* it comes with NAND
<wpwrak>
still no progress with XOR ? :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
B2001NN01P
<DocScrutinizer05>
though that might not be the relevant print on PoP
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, it seems the xloader/uboot has a sort of flawed USB implementation in this image. Or my USB cable is crap and I had extreme luck getting the ROMBL to enumerate
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<DocScrutinizer05>
err nope, it's clearly the stuff on uSD that blows chunks. And you can see how device will NOT boot xloader from USB (no ROMBL enumerating) when there's some working xloader/MLO on the uSD (see all the failing USB devices detected before that). In http://privatepaste.com/c049c167b4
<DocScrutinizer05>
I probably should get a defined recent version of the BB-xM bootloader / rootfs stuff, instead of using the uSD (data) it came with
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<PrettyKitti_>
this is probably a really foolish question, but ima throw it out there anyway
<PrettyKitti_>
im a sprint user
<DocScrutinizer05>
not foolsih
<PrettyKitti_>
is there any collaboration with sprint, or any other provider, for selling the neo900's?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I guess I already know the Q
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, when you ask for subsidized devices, sorry but nope
<PrettyKitti_>
i kinda figured, but it was worth asking anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure :-)
<PrettyKitti_>
the neo900 looks amazing
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks
<PrettyKitti_>
and one of the users in my channel pimps the n900 hard. he sells it pretty well :)
<PrettyKitti_>
but unfortunately, i dont have 700+ euro to invest in a phone :(
<PrettyKitti_>
otherwise, id buy one in an instant once it was release
<bencoh>
you could grab a <$100 n900 meanwhile I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, unfortunately it's not possible to go significantly cheaper unless we would produce 500,000 instead of 500
<PrettyKitti_>
it makes sense.
<P-G>
So we just need to wait until sales pick up. ;)
<bencoh>
huhu
<ds2>
who has < $100 N900?
<PrettyKitti_>
well, i hope more people in the security industry start looking into it
<Oksana>
And then, if you want to invest later, NeoN board to upgrade from N900 to Neo900 would be about 550 EUR... Right?
<PrettyKitti_>
because its perfect for us :)
<bencoh>
ds2: dunno, but I bought mine for 75e at a time when 1e=$1.35
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: sorry, the NeoN board is ~700
<ds2>
bencoh: private sale or ?
<bencoh>
hmno, public ebay sale
<ds2>
oh those blah
<P-G>
Kitti: I'm pretty excited about it too. That's one of the many reasons I hang around in this channel all day. :p
<bencoh>
does the job
<P-G>
Even though I can't really help...
<ds2>
too much hassle if the unit doesn't come as described
<PrettyKitti_>
lol im kinda the same way
<ds2>
had that happen once already on amazon
<PrettyKitti_>
i lurk in here to soak up any knowledge i can get.
<P-G>
Mhm. :3
<bencoh>
ds2: right, I guess that's why I chose a german seller :p
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<P-G>
This is where the smart people live.
<bencoh>
PrettyKitti_: SpongyKitti ? :)
<PrettyKitti_>
as it is, i resent that a phone costs more than a laptop now. but if i could find a way to afford the cost outright, i would definitely get a neo :)
<PrettyKitti_>
im not Spongykitti. sorry :/
<bencoh>
that was just a bad joke about "soaking knowledge", nevermind :)
<PrettyKitti_>
oh!
<PrettyKitti_>
lol sorry. totes went over my head :)
<P-G>
I will definitely buy one once I'm confident that it will work without problems but I have trouble fixing any real low level problems and I need a reliable phone.
<drathir>
but honestly no other alternatives to neo900 i guess...
<P-G>
Need to brush up on my linux but I will pay 700. There are no alternatives.
<bencoh>
P-G: I'm not sure we'll have a "reliable phone" out of the box right after the release anyway
<P-G>
I know. I'm here for the long haul.
<bencoh>
(we'll still need to port/fix the little software issues)
<PrettyKitti_>
DocScrutinizer05: i appreciate the info :) i didnt know if anyone had attempted to coordinate with any service providers, or if they had shown any favorable interest. It would really be nice to have some solid alternatives to the apple\android jail :)
<drathir>
android devices is a crap, no hw kb, and full clean linux possibility...
<drathir>
there even no similar nini netbook i guess...
<drathir>
mini*
<P-G>
Once I brush up on my Linux and C, I will buy a Neo900 and help with debugging. That may be a while though.
<drathir>
there only missing eth connection ;p
<bencoh>
usb host ;p
<PrettyKitti_>
P-G, at the risk of soundign like im trying to hijack users... ( DocScrutinizer05 i wont do this again if it seems like an issue) we have a sec researcher in our channel that uses the N900, and is incredibly knowledgeable in packaging specifically for the n900. you'd be very welcome to hang out and pick at him for some guidance :)
<drathir>
yea i now its a joke meaning builid in at mobo...
<P-G>
Well, I don't actually own an N900 right now but I'm always looking for new channels to idle in.
<P-G>
What's the channel?
<PrettyKitti_>
well, our channel is ##spoonfed. you, and anyone else in here, are welcome there any time :). its a help channel mainly focused around security topics. and one of our users, stryngs, is incredibly knowledgeable about porting packages for the n900.
<P-G>
Seems like he should be in here. :p
<PrettyKitti_>
before him, i had never even heard of it. but he has me, and a couple others, pretty much sold on picking up a neo when they get released :)
<PrettyKitti_>
honestly, im surprised he isnt. i know he was lurking in here for a bit, but im not sure why he stopped.
<bencoh>
stryngs is on #maemo :)
<P-G>
Maybe he doesn't enjoy the lengthy discussions of astrophysics and anti-drone infrastructure?
<bencoh>
haha
<PrettyKitti_>
lol honestly, he'd love both of those topics
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a little gotcha though: we won't build devices for the shelf. we are collecting preorders and build the devices to order
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: do you think there will be no "ready-to-use" components leftovers ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW it's quite possoble that there will be no device available "to buy when they are released"
<PrettyKitti_>
i understand, Doc, hence my issue. i know you guys are workign hard to keep the price down, but its still hard to set aside the full cost.
<bencoh>
(apart from genuine/"broken" n900s)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm fully aware if this. alas i can't help
<PrettyKitti_>
i understand :)
<P-G>
We could start a Neo900 mutual savings fund...
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: we try to plan for a 1000, but we most probably won't be able to sustain that till the end
<PrettyKitti_>
im pretty disappointed with a lot of the products out there, so im definitely trying to set aside a phone fund.
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: considering current donations, 1000 should be good I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
and particularly for the "N900 mech parts" (LCD, toichpanel, case, etc) we need to source those now
<bencoh>
anyway people *really* want to buy once it's soldout ... success! :)
<bencoh>
+if
<bencoh>
we'd just need to find another way to deliver :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'd just need to find another source for EOL parts
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just recently found a way to hopefully reliably source a sufficient number of N900 to revanp, but no way we can afford to get 1000 of those right now
<P-G>
How much do they cost?
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless we get 1000 orders for those parts
<DocScrutinizer05>
100some EUR
<DocScrutinizer05>
is the first estimation
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is kinda cheap, considering that as spare part the LCD may cost 60EUR and the digitizer 30EUR and the slider mechanics incl flexcable 40EUR etc
<P-G>
That's not too bad, right?
<P-G>
Yeah.
<P-G>
N900 is most of what we need and it has very specific hardware.
<DocScrutinizer05>
even the friggin antennas (some silly plastic with a little bit of copper trace on them) cost 20EUR
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<DocScrutinizer05>
when we can find them at all
<bencoh>
oO
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<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: indeed
<P-G>
Those new consumer oriented 3d printers that can print electronics aren't viable, right?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
our funds are quite touched already, we cannot afford (and never planned to) buying components for mass production from it
<P-G>
I know, I read about that a while back but at what point would it become economical for manufacturing random parts and cases?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we secured some parts already, and that also touched the funds meant for R&D
<DocScrutinizer05>
P-G: that would depend on the part and on your suppliers
<DocScrutinizer05>
I would guess a few 1000 would already make sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
so if after fist batch we could collect preorders for a second batch of say 10k, we for sure would manage to find somebody supplying us with the parts we need
<P-G>
Ok but at what point does buying a small printer become econimical? For non-electronic parts at least.
<DocScrutinizer05>
if however we sell a first batch of 468 and then another 300 or even 500 orders come in, odds are we won't be able to satisfy those
<DocScrutinizer05>
pronters still are no alternative for the stuff we need. Parts are extremely expensive even when you get the 200kbuck printer for free
<P-G>
You're talking about the cost of plastic?
<P-G>
To print stuff from?
<ShadowJK>
there's shapeways and stuff that prints for you, on pro printers
<DocScrutinizer05>
printers make sense for spare parts for airliners, where a single part made in a metal printer costs more than a whole car but it doesn't matter
<P-G>
You're talking about industrial printers though, not consumer.
<P-G>
What about something like...
<DocScrutinizer05>
consumer printers are for toys
<P-G>
So they wouldn't be useful for simple mechanical parts?
<ShadowJK>
Most Jolla TOH producers abandoned consumer printers and just order from 3D printing places now
<DocScrutinizer05>
not for parts needed in Neo900
<P-G>
The parts need to be too precise?
<P-G>
Some consumer printers claim 100 micron or less.
<DocScrutinizer05>
ShadowJK: yeah, and what they need is really simple, compared to a case for N(eo)900, and we could get the cases in truckload volumes
<DocScrutinizer05>
for ~15 bucks
<DocScrutinizer05>
cases and generally plastic parts are the last problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
least*
<ShadowJK>
Those guys seem to be constantly tweaking their 3D files too, to account for printer not being perfect, and that's on the "pro" printer
<ShadowJK>
ya
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<P-G>
I know some people who work with 3d printing and it does seem like a lot of work but it could be useful if we need specific parts that aren't microprocessors.
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's the very specific parts like flex cable or slider mech or, simply, the touch panel that suck
<P-G>
Hm.
<DocScrutinizer05>
we *could* build our own flex cables (though significantly more expensive)
<P-G>
Well, I don't know the details so I'll assume you're right. :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we can't build a 500 touch panels
<P-G>
Lol, I know that much.
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<P-G>
If we could, we wouldn't have a problem finding money.
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, need to get some RL stuff done, bbl
<P-G>
Ok, sorry for distracting you again. :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
you didn't
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<PrettyKitti_>
DocScrutinizer05, thank you for the info earlier :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
maybe I'll chime in from my IroN900
<PrettyKitti_>
i definitely appreciated the feedback.
<bencoh>
is the 3d scan of the case complete ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<P-G>
I keep looking for excuses to get a 3d printer but I can't find any way to justify it. Setting those things up and learning to use them seems like a lot of work.
<bencoh>
or is it just a raw STL/mesh with no post correction
<DocScrutinizer05>
correction? dunno
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think Werner fixed some nasty corners
<bencoh>
do you know what kind of scaner he used ,
<bencoh>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
...or rather planes
<bencoh>
scanner*
<DocScrutinizer05>
not exactly
<P-G>
I read it was pretty reliable but I forget where and when and I have no idea what that means in terms of printer/software/material compatability.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the 3D scans are basically meant to facilitate design and prototype-printing of the spacerframe
<bencoh>
P-G: well, I worked a few (3/4) times with 3D scanners and the thing I remember most is the time I spent on fixing those little holes you get in your mesh/cloud/object