<DocScrutinizer05>
cut/mill plastic (acrylic)? *REALLY* dead-slow RPM or you run into trouble
<DocScrutinizer05>
even better, slow RPM and constant water cooling. I *seem* to recall a dash of detergent in cooling water is revommended, might be a delusion
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: yeah, living molten red screaming acrylic
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw who spiced the drinks?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((dash of detergent in cooling water is recommended)) might help a lot to stop any screaming
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<DocScrutinizer05>
also iirc it's highly deprecated to use mineral oil based (or containing) cooling liquids for plastic cutting/milling, unlike for metal
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess aunt google is your friend
* DocScrutinizer05
wonders if erdogan and Putin are meeting every weekend to smoke crack and drink the strong Absinth, then discuss their plans how to conquer the world
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe both could use some councilors from China, who have more expertise about building Great Firewall
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<kyak>
they should also ask USA and GB for a bit of help
<kyak>
currently they are leaders in establishing of total control of citizens of their states and their puppet states
<kyak>
cool, Obama makes impression that he is going to call off NSA ;)
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, you should be more bothered with intermediate results of elections in France
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
Front Nationale successfully pimped up their image
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: I doubt he his mill has a liquid coolant system. and he shouldn't really need one. not sure what he's doing to his acrylic ...
<wpwrak>
kyak: the general rule seems to be that all countries try to behave roughly equally well. then one gets bold and commits some atrocity, which is promptly condemned by all the others. after an appropriate amount of time has passed, at least a couple of weeks, the rest make that atrocity their standard procedure as well. and it repeats.
<DocScrutinizer05>
(no liquid cooling system) nothing a bit of putty or even a simple plastic tub couldn't fix
<DocScrutinizer05>
a 3mm high level of water above the surface of the acrylic to mill will go a long way
<DocScrutinizer05>
you don't necessarily need a circulating coolant system
<wpwrak>
messy :) naw, this shouldn't need any coolant.
<DocScrutinizer05>
at 100°C water will start to boil and not allow acrylic or toolbit to heat up any further
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<test1>
Hello
<test1>
Does the Ben Nanonote have a GPU?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I heard for other materials they use alcohol or even liquid nitrogen as coolant bath
<test1>
Or is everything on the screen rendered by the CPU?
<wpwrak>
test1: yup, all safely done by the CPU
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: you better figure out your process well before cooling with alcohol :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I never owned or even seen a NN, so sorry no info here :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: yep, sure :-D
<test1>
wpwrak: have you heard about GPU-based paravirtualization
<test1>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and keep a fire extinguisher close
<wpwrak>
liquid nitrogen ... nice but may make some things brittle. also, better make sure you have good ventilation ...
<test1>
So, I supposed the nanonote will note be susceptible to this kind of attack?
<wpwrak>
(BIOS flashing attack) well, there is a ROM in the CPU, for the USB boot loader. we don't know for sure whether it is truly a ROM or perhaps Flash. but that's about the only place i could think of
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<kyak>
wpwrak: i can't agree more
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh yeah, those nasty BIOS attack vectors. Particularly when abusing audio ultrasonic as hiden channel for stealth networking
<test1>
I would be cool to set up your own audio network though
<test1>
for time when you can't use the wifi card on your laptop without using its propriatary firmware xD
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, rather use the proprietary firmware in audiocard ;-P
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<DocScrutinizer05>
btw fsck forbes, they refuse top show any proper content without you allowing them to place cookies on your box. Sure, the first thing I wanna do when trying to read about possible security threats is to allow cookies
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/top /to /
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "btw fsck forbes, they refuse to show any proper content without you allowing them to place cookies on your box. Sure, the first thing I wanna do when trying to read about possible security threats is to allow cookies"
<wpwrak>
one of those mysterious "an error occurred" clips
<wpwrak>
btw, roh would also know some things about milling acrylic. he's got a big mean mill.
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: one of the worst thing with acrylic is when you use old worn out tool bits that aren't sharp anymore. And acrylic is known to cause tools to lose their sharpness quickly
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems it's pretty hard
<wpwrak>
dunno. my trusty old 3.175" mill still works fine with it. so it can't be too bad.
<whitequark>
I should make a full-sized cover for my CNC
<whitequark>
then I could even maybe use flood coolant
<whitequark>
or at least mist
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, simply plase a few drops of water on the surface where you plan to drill a hole
<DocScrutinizer05>
place*
<DocScrutinizer05>
a) you should use low RPM anyway. b) you're likely to use small diameter drills which won't cause the water drop to get blown away
<whitequark>
WOW
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, when you mill the hole with smaller tool, make sure you always work against the spin
<whitequark>
this worked really well
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't let the mill add to the forward force
<whitequark>
first, chips don't accumulate on the endmill anymore, they turn into a kind of sludge and don't get in the way
<whitequark>
and definitely don't melt
<whitequark>
second, the finish is much much nicer
<DocScrutinizer05>
toldya
<whitequark>
let's try going slower
<DocScrutinizer05>
(against the spin) I'm fuzzy. When you mill out a hole with a bit that spins clockwise, then your toolpath also needs to be clockwise
<whitequark>
yeah, I know about conventional/climb milling
<DocScrutinizer05>
the surface where the feed adds to the circumference spped of the mill will look vleaner then the surface where the both subtract
<DocScrutinizer05>
typo galore
<DocScrutinizer05>
the surface where the feed adds to the circumference speed of the mill will look cleaner than the surface where the both subtract
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw WTF? your CNC does 1m/s?
<DocScrutinizer05>
is this feed or circumference speed?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it really does 1m/s, you better mount it to concrete of your floor with 20*300 bolts, and leave the room before starting it ;-)
<whitequark>
my CNC does 1900mm/min
<DocScrutinizer05>
per minute, yeah maybe
<whitequark>
31mm/s it is.
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-03-25 10:07:34] <whitequark> 1.0mm endmill, layers of 0.5mm, S18000, F1000 (yes, one thousand mm/sec)
<whitequark>
right, typoed
<whitequark>
it's just in contrast to wpwrak, which goes so painfully slow I don't think I'd be able to even watch it
<whitequark>
2mm/min is absurd
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
for acrylic slow feed is toxic
<DocScrutinizer05>
slow RPM, high feed
<whitequark>
oh, /s
<whitequark>
so he went 180mm/min
<whitequark>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a bit counter intuitive, until you think about melting
<DocScrutinizer05>
slow feed causes too much heating and finally melting of the acrylic
<whitequark>
yeah yeah, I got it already, after two dozen cuts
<whitequark>
I'm not *that* dumb
<DocScrutinizer05>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
never said you were
<DocScrutinizer05>
but water is the killer, eh?
<whitequark>
it totally is
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<whitequark>
S8000 F1200 is really good
<whitequark>
lemme try even lower rpm
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventually your mill breaks
<DocScrutinizer05>
tricky to find the right RPM vs feed
<DocScrutinizer05>
when the ratio goes too low, your feed cracks the bit
<DocScrutinizer05>
ratio too high makes acrylic melt
<whitequark>
grmbl
<whitequark>
the hard part is making water stay there
<whitequark>
and not go away
<whitequark>
and I just broke my second to last endmill
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-S
<DocScrutinizer05>
i'm typing too slow
<whitequark>
nah, not while cutting
<whitequark>
while removing melted acrylic from it
<DocScrutinizer05>
you might be able to remove molten acrylic by milling through wood
<DocScrutinizer05>
with very high RPM
<DocScrutinizer05>
and moderate, initially dead slow feed
<whitequark>
nah, I can usually just spin it off with pliers and while spinning the axle manually
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
S8000 F1500 was an error
<whitequark>
I'm out of endmills
* whitequark
sighs
<DocScrutinizer05>
now you got plenty of time to think about my various suggestions to build a foce detector into your CNC
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
force*
<DocScrutinizer05>
for carbide tools it won't work with the one suggested solution, since those break before any noticeable bending
<wpwrak>
whitequark: (painfully slow) my mm/s are mm/s ;-)
<wpwrak>
looks pretty good. don't expect too much from the mill's finishing powers. if you want it "neat", then it's sanding (many times, with decreasing grain sizes) and polishing
<wpwrak>
if you have larger steps or, much worse, case halves, then you need to sand
<wpwrak>
there are also alternatives to abrasion, e.g., fire or solvents
<whitequark>
fire...
<wpwrak>
for solvents, the "best" seems to be the vapour of a somewhat nasty solvent, forgot which
<whitequark>
acetone
<wpwrak>
for fire (i knew you'd like that :), you want a very hot flame. so traditional russian technology should serve you well
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<wpwrak>
the red stuff in the pictures is that dremel polishing goo. alas, very hard to get rid of
<whitequark>
ooooh, I just had an excellent idea for how to keep water near work area
<whitequark>
I noticed the results are best when water turns into that kind of sludge before it's dispersed by the endmill
<whitequark>
so, what about pouring a gel there?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's a cause/result mesup thinking
<DocScrutinizer05>
water turns into that sludge because it gets micro-circulated by mill, and thus manages to move away the dust from the tool active surface
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you use gel, no micro circulation, dust stays where it comes into existence, and result will be way inferior
<whitequark>
hm, good point
<DocScrutinizer05>
even to the point of gel and dust building up a nice sticky gue on toolbit surface that eventually dries and then melts
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<wpwrak>
i guess the water could still get squeezed out of the gel. so i wouldn't dismiss the idea. i guess it depends a bit on how watery the gel is
<DocScrutinizer05>
when your water "rolls" away on the hydrophobic acrylic surface, then use some drops of detergent to add to the water to cure this
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and, as already suggested, nothing a bit of putty couldn't fix
<DocScrutinizer05>
make a nice ring forming a mini basin around your milling area
<DocScrutinizer05>
fill in 1 or 2 mm high of water
<DocScrutinizer05>
make sure it won't flow out of your basin too fast when you have milled in your first "sink" into the acrylic
<wpwrak>
then convince it not to leave through the holes you mill ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
faster ;-P
* wpwrak
needs coffee
<DocScrutinizer05>
since your acrylic is supposed to be tightly and flush attached to a victim material below, there shouldn't be any noticeable sink path
<wpwrak>
i went through the liquids ordeal when milling aluminium. there, you need lubrication. messy business.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, for that you need oil or similar, a mess compared to plain water
<wpwrak>
indeed. also because the oil acts as solvent for the adhesive tape ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually an emulsion of oil in water gets used for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
the oily component can be rather low, like maybe 10% or lower
<DocScrutinizer05>
in german it's called bohrwasser
<wpwrak>
i just used plain oil. i need it only for lubrication, not for cooling
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<DocScrutinizer05>
plain oil is way more messy, and particularly for alu I guess the water even gets active in some way
<whitequark>
yep it is... if you strip the oxide layer, aluminium is an active metal
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know. I just think it kinda "kills" or rather dissolves the alu dust
<whitequark>
no, not that fast
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least passivates it, so you can remove it easier. Maybe
<DocScrutinizer05>
for sure plain minaral oil is way more sticky, and with the alu dust mixed in, it's a nasty polish
<wpwrak>
i've heard that brass and bronce should be self-lubricating. might be better suited for playing with metals if it doesn't have to be Al
<DocScrutinizer05>
brass particularly self lubricating on steel
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: air passivates al just as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
machine builders love that combo, for bearings
* whitequark
headdesks
<whitequark>
so I just figured out the hard way that there are exactly two kinds of shower hose thread
<whitequark>
one with d=22.5mm, and another with d=21.5mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<whitequark>
apparently one is "imported" and other is "russian"
<whitequark>
they even looked almost same, which is why I bought wrong one in the first place. neither russian nor western packaging considers necessary to write the diameter on the packaging
<whitequark>
and I couldn't use my caliper to measure whatever's in plastic
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, that last one doesn't parse
<whitequark>
well, the hose was in factory packaging.
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah
<DocScrutinizer05>
never heard of different diameters either
<wpwrak>
it's depressing. a new design, based on AVR. in 2014. yet 10 times over-funded
<wpwrak>
to make anelok kickstarterable, i think i should say somewhere "Based on 32-bit ARM core, like <B><BLINK><DANCE>Arduino</DANCE></BLINK></B> Due."
<larsc>
it has a OLED!!! and built-in, imagine the things you could do with that
<larsc>
I mean the blink pattern possibilities are endless
<whitequark>
that's depressing, yes.
<whitequark>
circle! rectangle! wow so 1st grade geometry such compexity
<wpwrak>
it's like having 3072 individual LEDs. you can play with a different one ever hours and it'll still last a whole year !
<whitequark>
lol
<wpwrak>
i like their comment on "The huge difference between our 3D Printed and CNC Milled Prototypes." though
<wpwrak>
whitequark: note what they have to say about polishing :) "Each prototype enclosure took 8 hours to polish by hand! You really need a beer after that!"
<whitequark>
LOL
<whitequark>
"handcrafted fresh green electrons delivered by you from local sustainable hackerspaces"
<whitequark>
something along these lines
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<viric>
are you laughing of people who know how to make money? :)
<whitequark>
viric: I am. I never considered money to be the pinnacle of personal achievement
<whitequark>
I mean, by this measure Putin & co are best of the humanity.
<viric>
exactly
<viric>
It requires a mixture of ignorance and malice to make money
<viric>
but then there is the paradox of knowing how to make money, just to outperform evil people, and then invest the money on things you'd like to grow
<whitequark>
I won't agree here either, you absolutely can make money on a good cause
<whitequark>
exactly
<viric>
*paradox*
<wpwrak>
keep things simple: 1) define "a good cause" as "me making money". 2) start making money
<viric>
:)
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for the advice. will do it this way with my next project. After I recovered from this one
<eintopf>
huhu
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<zrafa>
wpwrak: swd tests.. we have not done more tests, just last Friday. I have really bad news from tests, so I think that I should write an email to tell you the current story, so others benefit as well if that problem appear for others of course.
<zrafa>
wpwrak: But, in short: it has not worked yet :(
<zrafa>
wpwrak: worse, the last two boards we did are okey, and I see some 3.3V from ben
<zrafa>
+ubb pins so I guess that jlime is not the issue ( I disabled jz mmc driver of course)
<zrafa>
Then, I think board with mkl26 is okey, and ben+ubb with jlime is working with your swd software as well. But, still nothing from MCU.
<zrafa>
Every test, every reset, swd werner software and we always get ACK 7 as answer from MCU
<zrafa>
:(
<zrafa>
I should write an email = I should write an email to qi hw mailing list I meant
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<whitequark>
okay... so I jot jigsaw blades
<whitequark>
lemme try to (not) saw off a finger
<whitequark>
s,jot,got,
<wpwrak>
whitequark: pro tip: drink a bit of vodka first. that way, if you miss, it will hurt less.
<whitequark>
sure, brb
<whitequark>
wpwrak: in general, how does one select the blade?
<wpwrak>
pro tip #2: don't drink the entire bottle, so you'll have some desinfectant ready
<whitequark>
here I have one for 2-15mm, another for 3-30mm
<whitequark>
what one do I use for 3mm plywood?
<wpwrak>
guess both should work. i don't really know the magic but i'd pick the one with the smallest teeth.
<wpwrak>
zrafa: sounds suckish :-( did you try with the scope ?
<whitequark>
wpwrak: guessed as well
<zrafa>
wpwrak: no, because I do not have skills for that. And Rodolfo is very busy everyday to give me help. Maybe the electronic engineering student who is working with us could try
<wpwrak>
zrafa: grab him ! :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: btw, we just power the MCU with pin 3 (vdd) and pin4 gnd. Does it need more vdd pins connected?
<zrafa>
(for example, pin 30 and 48 are vdd as well)
<wpwrak>
you should always connect all the power pins
<wpwrak>
not sure what happens in this case if you don't. what package do you have ?
<zrafa>
mkl26z256vlh4 LQFP/QFN (64 pins)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: and you suggest to connect all the vss as well?
<wpwrak>
of course, yes. and don't forget the decoupling caps
<wpwrak>
while you're at it, you'll also want to add a USB connector
<whitequark>
this was surprigingly painless
<wpwrak>
;-)
<whitequark>
I mean, my fingers are even mostly intact
<wpwrak>
oh, then you didn't pass yet
<zrafa>
wpwrak: decoupling caps.. : reading wikipedia now... :)
<wpwrak>
if you omit decoupling caps, some of the internal rails could collapse on sudden load changes. not sure how picky the chip is, though.
<wpwrak>
you basically have to put 1 uF between each VDD/VDD pair. they're next to each other for that reason
<wpwrak>
and place the caps close to the pins, not centimeters way.
<wpwrak>
same treatment for VDDA/VSSA and VREFH/VREFL
<zrafa>
argh.. so we need as well vdda/vssa connected as well??! I wanted to avoid those to save work :)
<whitequark>
connecting all supply pins is pretty important
<whitequark>
you'd get really magical behavior otherwise
<wpwrak>
yeah, connect them as well. they may not really be needed but it's better to be safe than sorry
<wpwrak>
also, equip the regulator. that way, you can power the board from USB.
<wpwrak>
see anelok for all the caps and connections
<zrafa>
wpwrak: ok. We were trying using vdd from ben+ubb
<zrafa>
to power
<wpwrak>
your 64 pin package has one VDD/VSS pair more, so you'll need an extra 1 uF cap. but the rest should be the same as with anelok's MKL25Z128VFT4
<zrafa>
wpwrak: yes, I see those. Thanks a lot for all the tips, we will try to follow all of them for the next try ;)
<wpwrak>
hmm, my circuit is also a little dodgy. the way i mix USB and battery power isn't entirely clean
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I think there are dedicated switches?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: you mean chips ? or switches in the MCU ?
<whitequark>
chips
<wpwrak>
well, i'd call them "FET" :)
<wpwrak>
i actually have one. just not doing that sort of thing.
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<whitequark>
well... it's like, it already has convenient outputs for detecting power switches and connects right to the typical battery charger IC
<whitequark>
not strictly necessary but can be convenient and/or takes less place than discrete stuff
<wpwrak>
ah, but i use primary cells
<wpwrak>
no fancy charger neenen
<wpwrak>
neeDed
<whitequark>
ah
<whitequark>
no liion? :/
<wpwrak>
CR2032. all the Li you need :)
<whitequark>
hm, I think you can recharge CR**** cells
<whitequark>
ie, they're not actually primary. they're more like rechargeable fuel cells
<whitequark>
wait, no, that doesn't make sense
<whitequark>
hm
<whitequark>
it does, they're not *fuel* cells. methanol there is just as ion transfer medium
<whitequark>
I think
<whitequark>
wpwrak: don't PC motherboards actually recharge CR2032 RTC cells?
<whitequark>
pretty sure they doi
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't expect them to. they may draw no current while the system has other power, though.
<DocScrutinizer05>
they definitely don't recharge LiIon primary bupbat
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's maximum forbidden
<wpwrak>
zrafa: anelok's VSYS should be the same as VBAT. i.e., connect VOUT33 to all the VDD/VDDA/VREFH pins and also connect the ben 3.3 V to that net
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: seems like true
<whitequark>
interesting. so this is a myth. seems quite prevalent in RU though
<wpwrak>
maybe un RU they do ... to regenerate the Pu, perhaps ? :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: btw, metal blades cut acrylic just fine
<wpwrak>
no Li-ion, just Pu-ion
<wpwrak>
excellent !
<whitequark>
the finish is even moderately nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
pretty simple: power up you rPC, remove CR2032, prbe between + and - of bat holder with ampere meter (ramge 10..100mA)
<whitequark>
nooope, I only have this PC I bought used. I think it wasn't cleaned in maybe 5 years
<whitequark>
I'm really just afraid to open it
<whitequark>
it's better to not know sometimes
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: re sawing acrylic, see the links i posted this morning
<whitequark>
mhm
<wpwrak>
zrafa: maybe put your design on qu-hw or github. that way, we can check it
<whitequark>
so I wrote the local endmill supplier asking them to sell me some endmills for acrylic
<whitequark>
hopefully they have a better idea of proper feeds&speeds than me
<whitequark>
they better do, for the amounts they charge
* whitequark
looks at eighteen acrylic circles he now posesses
<whitequark>
wonder if I can do something with them
<whitequark>
apart from "burn"
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<wpwrak>
maybe you can use them as feet/spacers some day
<whitequark>
hm, burned one
<whitequark>
funny, it doesn't really emit any soot, only slightly stinks, and eventually burns down to nothing
<wpwrak>
the perfect crime
<whitequark>
lol
<whitequark>
also, apparently pmma combustion products aren't even toxic
<whitequark>
this is so boring
<DocScrutinizer05>
not at all. acrylic afaik is a component for industrial scale rocket solid fuel
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh yes, there been that youtube video, somebody used a acrylic cylinder with a hole along the axis, through which he feeds some gas, prolly oxygen
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter one shows how to drill acrylic the right way
<DocScrutinizer05>
it creates one (or 2) long curl of acrylic
<DocScrutinizer05>
however I think the design like shown in this videos isn't useful yet. You at least need to fix two things: enclose the acrylic into a proper containment that is able to handle the pressure in burning chamber even when the acrylic got hot, and a "constant current" regulation for the the oxygen. The constant pressure regulation is useless
<DocScrutinizer05>
you easily can change the ordinary constant pressure regulator into a constant "current" one, by feeding back the pressure after the valve you place after that regulator (to adjust the volume of gas passing trough) to the "environment" pressure inlet of the regulator. Simple way to do that: put the whole regulator+valve into a chamber to which the valve's outlet feeds the gas. Then from that chamber you feed the Oxygen to the actual
<DocScrutinizer05>
motor
<whitequark>
yep, very cool design
<whitequark>
(drilling) well, it's really a very different setup
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, but it shows how proper drilling looks like, regarding the material taken away
<whitequark>
ah.
<whitequark>
I know :)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: note though that he uses extruded acrylic and not cast
<whitequark>
that may have some effect
<whitequark>
er
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