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<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: from that evonik whitepaperabout acrylic handling: >>• Stichsägeblatt mit Geradverzahnun gund einer Zahnteilung von 2,5 mm<< (jigsaw: sawblade with in-line teeth [not one left one right bent tooth] with at toothpitch of 2.5mm)
<DocScrutinizer05>
also don't use "Pendelhub" when your jigsaw offers that (blade oscillating sideways)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I bet water can't hurt
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<roh>
not sideways.. its oscillating in cutting direction: backtilt when down, forward when up
<roh>
we cut acryllic with a lo2 laser usually
<DocScrutinizer05>
right
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and then I dunno if it's deprecated or maybe exactly the right thing for cutting acrylic with jigsaw
<wpwrak>
oscillating sideways would affect the blade's life expectancy in dramatic ways :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
really?
<DocScrutinizer05>
-_-_-_-_-_-_
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course ideally it must also do the forth&back movement roh mentioned, to actually start cutting the overlapping 2nd cut path where it ended the upstroke before last
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know details about "Pendelhub" maybe because when I tried to find out, I had a little oopsie that can still be seen on my left digit finger's tip
<DocScrutinizer05>
the throttle of that jigsaw had a broken poti
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I didn't cut my finger, only contusion between case of jigsaw and blade chuck
<wpwrak>
lucky you :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
(MH370) what are those satellite data that the airplane sent to sats?
<DocScrutinizer05>
do airplanes have satellite-based animal-trackers, like whales?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or storks
<DocScrutinizer05>
would make a lot of sense, but then it's quite interesting to learn about a worldwide secret measure initiated by some TLA-agencies
<DocScrutinizer05>
even ETLA maybe, like FIAA?
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, scratch that
<DocScrutinizer05>
FAA
<DocScrutinizer05>
but EASA
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<wpwrak>
you mean ACARS ? that can be lots of things, engine data, other system performance data, text messages (kinda SMS), and so on
<wpwrak>
the fate of AF447 was discovered largely based on ACARS data, long before they found the wreck with the black boxes
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<wpwrak>
in MH370, however, ACARS stopped sending around the time the plane stopped the transponder
<wpwrak>
but the satellite link was still active, just not sending data. so what they did was use management data from the sat link, which - surprisingly - gets recorded, to try to narrow down the plane's path and last position
<wpwrak>
the "corridors" come from round-trip time measurements. but they also have some pulse trains that are affected by doppler. these were used in the latest analysis the picked the southern corridor
<larsc>
na, that can't be any good the h2o connector is not gold plated
<wpwrak>
finally ! i was getting tired of having to make them myself
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course HAMA, haha
<DocScrutinizer05>
good, Gardena is a better standard with more adapters than HDMI
<DocScrutinizer05>
Gardena even has phasers
<wpwrak>
zrafa: i suspect that part of your problem could also be an incorrect pin assignment in the schematics symbol. it's easy to get these wrong. so, if you put your design on a public repo, this can be checked, too :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
a word on multiple GND/VDD pins: Pins are the most "expensive" part of a chip, basically. A chip manuf tends to use all available pins for useful functions. So when they see the need for "redundant" VDD and GND pins, they damn sure *need* them to get connected and powered, since it was the only solution to bring clean power to all places on die where it's needed. Otherwise the chip manuf had found a better use for that pin, or worst
<DocScrutinizer05>
case simply made it "Not Cpnnected" and save the expense to bond it
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW: there is zero room to stray from chip manufacturer's application notes which clearly state which pin needs to get connected and which may stay unused
<wpwrak>
naw, there's usually plenty of room :) BUT ... the chip may no longer reach its specified performance at all points
<wpwrak>
e.g., additional power pins may be less about distribution than about current
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need *öots* of experience for that, and you're on your own
<DocScrutinizer05>
*lots*
<wpwrak>
*öots* sounds cooler ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and additional VDD pins usually are about additional buffering with low ESR
<wpwrak>
a bit like "your arms will hurt because you have to stretch them to type since you can't sit close to the desk for your giant steel balls won't fit under it"
<DocScrutinizer05>
to the point :-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<wpwrak>
let's put it this way: i agree that it's generally a bad idea to try to take "shortcuts" with such things
<wpwrak>
but then, you can often get away with it, especially if you're not driving the chip very hard
<DocScrutinizer05>
you generally have no idea about the consequences though
<wpwrak>
which makes me wonder whether zrafa is experiencing problems because he didn't connect all the VDD/VSS, or if it's because of something else
<DocScrutinizer05>
everything from electromigration to FDIV bug at <8°C may ensue
<wpwrak>
in fact, unless he missed all of them, i would expect this chip to work for what he's trying to do. i'm less certain about not having decoupling caps, which he seems to have "optimized out" as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
I tend to agree with whitequark who said "or you'll experience very magic behavior"
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-03-26 14:49:03] <DocScrutinizer05> and additional VDD pins usually are about additional buffering with low ESR
<DocScrutinizer05>
you might even get away with connecting _only_ a buffer cap to the VDD
<DocScrutinizer05>
charging of that buffer cap would happen through die traces at high ESR, but it might work
<wpwrak>
yeah :) i have something like that in anelok (by accident, noticed it yesterday)
<DocScrutinizer05>
afk
<wpwrak>
that's also one of the reasons why i believe not connecting all the supply pins isn't zrafa's biggest problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
no buffer capacitors is the problem. afkafkafk
<wpwrak>
poor kafka, gets blamed for everything
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: electromigration
<whitequark>
?
<whitequark>
wpwrak: avrs tend to work through clamp diodes, even without any supply pins at all
<whitequark>
in fact there's an attiny-based software-defined nfc tag working that way
<DocScrutinizer51>
whitequark: what's unclear about EM?
<DocScrutinizer51>
(clamp diodes) not only AVR
<DocScrutinizer51>
I already built such botch :) Along with other 'outa specs but works great and saves BOM'
<DocScrutinizer51>
like driving LED from GPIO high to GND w/o series R
<DocScrutinizer51>
you *can* do that when you really know what you're doing and are aware of and tolerate the consequences
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<DocScrutinizer51>
for the R-less LEDs I had to caclulate total power dissipation in chip and accept that lifetime of that Atmel prolly considerably reduced
<DocScrutinizer51>
it been totally withing specs of that product
<DocScrutinizer51>
within*
<DocScrutinizer51>
~ping
<DocScrutinizer51>
eeew
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer51: how about just PWMing it?
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<whitequark>
or you didn't have hw pwm on that pin?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: remember GTA02 with a BJT to drive a LED, the transistor not having a base resistor ? :)
<larsc>
I remember
<larsc>
it required a workaround in the gpio driver
<larsc>
because the gpios would read back as 0 even though they were set to 1
<wpwrak>
ah yes :)
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<whitequark>
hah!
<whitequark>
GPIO read on an output pin actually sampled the voltage instead of just returning stored value?
<wpwrak>
makes the hardware a little bit more efficient, i guess :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: it is not open hardware. we are thinking to be millonaire and we need to write nda so all of you can sign to see the files
<zrafa>
wpwrak: after the delirious I need to mention that our board does not have any thing to show :P .. it just exposes the pin vdd and vss (pin 3 and 4), swdclk, swdio, reset_b
<zrafa>
wpwrak: then we can plug wires from ubb to test.
<wpwrak>
zrafa: (closed hw) ah good, then we can charge consulting fees ;-)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: but of course, it was our hurry try to know if it would be so easy to talk with the mcu
<zrafa>
wpwrak: but now I know that we need to work a lot more until swd software can talk with mcu :)
<wpwrak>
sometimes it's faster not to take the shortcuts ;-)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: however, the electronic engineering student guy did the tiny test board with eagle
<wpwrak>
you should have insisted that he'd do it with kicad
<zrafa>
wpwrak: and he will try to add the other bits to continue (1uF caps), the others vdd/vss, etc. At least to know that we are in some "hello world" stage
<zrafa>
wpwrak: and turn on a led :)
<zrafa>
via software
<zrafa>
in mcu
<zrafa>
:)
<wpwrak>
well, since your project is still very simple, this is still a good time to switch to kicad
<wpwrak>
btw, you can turn on a LED over SWD
<zrafa>
after that close hw and millonaire. I will move to Cuba to live happy the rest of my life
<zrafa>
with the money of this project
<DocScrutinizer51>
haha, our kicad evangelist again :)
<wpwrak>
well, one chip, a blinking LED, not much else to show ... yes, i supposed the plan for becoming a millionaire could work :)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer51: what do you prefer? and would switching to kicad be actually worth it?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: it's just sick to make yourself depend on closed source for they key piece of your hw development :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
depends on your priorities. every PCB house accepts eagle project files
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer51: well, I usually send gerbers
<whitequark>
which is open format and is accepted in 100.0% of houses
<DocScrutinizer51>
wpwrak: one *some* level it a!ways becomes closed. Think chips
<DocScrutinizer51>
whitequark: I know
<whitequark>
wpwrak: also eagle now has a documented xml format for its project/board files
<whitequark>
so it at least doesn't lock you in
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<whitequark>
I'm sure some PCB CAD software today uses an equivalent of DRM, but it's not eagle
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: indeed. and that level is high enough. no need to get any further :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
well, up to anybody's very own priorities. I think kicad not being ready for primetime, for huge projects particularly
<DocScrutinizer51>
sure if you have the preoject requirement 'as FOSS as possible', go for kicad
<wpwrak>
yeah, i do. and it hasn't let me down so far :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
if you have the requirement 'as professional and safe as possible' then you prolly wanna go for a more matrure tool
<wpwrak>
how would eagle be safer than kicad ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
and particularely when you wanna start learning about all that layout and schematics stuff, you don't pick a tool like kicad that needs a programmer to work around the quirks
<wpwrak>
you haven't used kicad much, have you ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: of course you can send gerbers, and they will accept them. They however usually won't check them and fix the little oopsies you introduced. On eagle otoh they might
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I'm not really sure if I *want* them to fix what they consider little oopsies
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, as I already said, it's all up to you
<whitequark>
they seem to do some processing on gerbers as well. e.g. when I sent boards to iteadstudio, I did not actually send them a drill rack
<whitequark>
so they "reverse-engineered" vias from top/bottom layers
<DocScrutinizer05>
unlike wpwrak I won't try to convince you to use any particular ECAD
<whitequark>
well, via drill points
<whitequark>
er, s,drill rack,drill layer,
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just say it's worth a closer consideration which tools to use, and you need to know what are your requirements to make an educated choice from the options you got
<whitequark>
yeah, agreed
<whitequark>
unrelated: seems like my decision to buy plywood (!) from amazon and then forward it internationally wasn't as dumb as it looks
<whitequark>
I wasn't able to find thin plywood in either construction stores or on market
<whitequark>
also the only place which was selling thin (.5mm) copper was only selling it in ~1 sq.m. sheets, and there is no copper tubing thinner than 6mm too
<whitequark>
(I need a copper anode)
<wpwrak>
plywood seems to have some regional variations. i was also surprised to find that around here, it's not common (if it's used at all)
<whitequark>
yeah, leroy-merlin has 12mm thick plywood. I don't even have anything to use such humongous logs for
<whitequark>
actually I can probably make it myself, only thing I need is a mesh
<whitequark>
I'm going to give up on non-screen-printing methods of depositing the silkscreen layer
<whitequark>
I've more or less exhausted all options I knew
<whitequark>
it actually seems that mastering the silkscreen technology can considerably help with avoiding noname dry film resist/mask, which you can never know where to buy when your current vendor evaporates
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<DocScrutinizer05>
WTF? >>Shipping: May not ship to Germany<<
<kyak>
walk a mile in my shoes... :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
USA creating a de facto embargo on Germany?
<DocScrutinizer05>
No, we still don't like that free trade treaty that allows US companies to sue Germany for compensation when we don't want your crappy gene manipulated corn food here
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: I don't see how you're going to create any reasonable stencil from that basic kit
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems like made for freehand artwork, not for proper fine technical printing
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (embargo) that's what you krauts deserver for complaining about the NSA !
<eintopf>
hi wpwrak
<eintopf>
what's up
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: do you know how silkscreening for PCBs works?
<whitequark>
you spray or pour liquid resist on mesh, then smooth it out with squeegee and dry
<wpwrak>
eintopf: the cloud layer. a bit higher than earlier in the day.
<whitequark>
then expose and develop. at end you squeeze yet more resist through the mesh on the PCB
<whitequark>
be it etching resist, solder mask or UV-curing ink
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<eintopf>
wpwrak: ah ok and that's good?
<wpwrak>
all things considered, it doesn't make much of a difference. well, maybe if you're a pilot
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: well, where's that liquid resist?
<DocScrutinizer05>
tbh I'd rather try to spray or pour light-curing ink to the PCB, then expose and remove the non-cured ink
<DocScrutinizer05>
with pigments that are not 100% opaque (particularly on the wavelength the resin needs or acrylate needs to cure) that should work out fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you even could use thermo-curing when you got pigments that absorb sufficient light to warm the ink up tpo the point where it cures
<wpwrak>
me ? liquid resist ? ain't doing none of that
<eintopf>
wpwrak: but... how are you
<eintopf>
I mean your feeling
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<wpwrak>
good, good. why ? do i seem odd ? i mean odder than usual ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: ^^^
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: one word: uniform thickness
<whitequark>
it's practically impossible to get uniform thickness of liquid resist without a mesh
<whitequark>
and honestly I'm baffled as to what spray-on resist is useful *at all*
<whitequark>
it gives you a hugely nonuniform layer and dries for hours
<whitequark>
ew
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<eintopf>
wpwrak: no, I like the known the feelings about my friends :/
<eintopf>
when we are friends
<wpwrak>
ah, alright :) so i can adjust the oddity level up ;-)
<wpwrak>
hmm, the "martian chronicles" should be fun. just saw a brief scene. spacecraft lands, astronaut emerges, greets oddly humanoid local, (speaking slowly) "I am from Earth. And this is Mars." local: "Young man, I don't know where you are from but this is Greenville, Illinois." :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like fun
<eintopf>
no I am level up because I know the author of my old bootloader :O
<kyak>
and your old filesystem, probably
<eintopf>
never used fat under linux
<eintopf>
but... I think every fat open source implementation used something code from that
<eintopf>
and indeed some usb sticks has fat :/
<whitequark>
pretty much all usb sticks do
<wpwrak>
yeah, vfat (the driver) still has fat underneath
<kyak>
not sure if it was mentioned here before :)
<kyak>
it seems that everybody here is reading the code now :)
<wpwrak>
now us long-haired hippies can finally use a professional word processor to write our applications, and get a proper job
<kyak>
heh
<kyak>
i was amazed that they used some kind of bug tracking tracking system back in 88
<kyak>
if you grep the code for 'bug', you'll see
<eintopf>
wpwrak: do you put some things like backdoors in the fat implementation
<eintopf>
to get root access
<kyak>
eintopf: you didn't know? Just create a file named 'wernerisgod' in root of your fat
<eintopf>
:O
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<eintopf>
wpwrak: did you reverse engineer the filesystem format?
<DocScrutinizer05>
of FAT?
<eintopf>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems that been public knowledge since very much the beginning
<eintopf>
ah, ok
<eintopf>
not like samba
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think I seen articles in magazines back in the late 80s
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, it couldn't get much simpler than FAT
<DocScrutinizer05>
they started with DOS1 which hadn't any folder concept
<dos1>
really? ;o
<DocScrutinizer05>
somewhere around dos2 or dos3 they added folders aka directories
<eintopf>
i don't like folders, i like directories
<wpwrak>
eintopf, DocScrutinizer05: yeah. just looked it up in a book on DOS programming
<whitequark>
fun fact: in russian, "folder" and "daddy" is the same word
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: they added a few quirks over time, like different FAT formats, but yes, it's not the most complicated format on earth :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventually windoue came up with that botch which mitigated the 8.3 format restrictions
<kyak>
just wondering, why MS was easy on revealing details about FAT, and so closed about NTFS? It took quite some years to have decent support for NTFS in Linux
<whitequark>
("папка")
<wpwrak>
whitequark: so "parent directory" is then a double daddy ?
<whitequark>
wpwrak: exactly
<wpwrak>
grandpa :)
<whitequark>
well, it could be interpreted as "grandfather"
<whitequark>
though the grammatical gender is wrong
<kyak>
cross-gender :)
<larsc>
kyak: you have to ask wpwrak how easy it was to get the FAT details
<DocScrutinizer05>
kyak: NFS is a *real* filesystem, unlike that FAT nonsense
<wpwrak>
kyak: may be zeitgeist. back then few cared about keeping such things secret
<DocScrutinizer05>
NTFS*
<whitequark>
details? you could get all details you need with a few hours with a hex editor
<whitequark>
or a peter norton book
<whitequark>
my grandmother used to routinely resurrect deleted files with diskedit and some intense glaring at screen
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds about right
<whitequark>
back in the days, DOS used to just write \0 as the first symbol of filename
<DocScrutinizer05>
to delete, yes
<whitequark>
and FAT directory entries aren't exactly complex
<kyak>
whitequark: i spotted in comments to source code of msdos that directories have \0 at the end for "easier search" :)
<eintopf>
was there a tool for fragmentation for fat under linux?
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are a few minor triccky things like secondary FAT which gets used when primary is corrupted
<eintopf>
how many copies of the superblock do fat save?
<eintopf>
:\
<whitequark>
I think 2?
<eintopf>
mhh
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I thnk before there been any FAT fs driver, there already been dostools
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, msdos is sooooo out, I refused to use it when it been in, I preferred drdos or err PCdos?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think there are FOSS dos implementations since ages
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly nobody needs or just wants MSdos anymore
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer05: that's solely for historical reasons.. Frankly speaking i don't even know what i would do with that or any of FOSS implementations
<larsc>
DocScrutinizer05: just you watch soon MSDOS will replace Linux as the leading opensource operating system
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: as far as i recall, i only contributed some small changes to mtools. i think it was a more sane configuration methos
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: on the lovely topic of "what means `A:´"?
<wpwrak>
yeah ,that kind of thing
<wpwrak>
i think it was originally hardcoded or something like this
<DocScrutinizer05>
my hero!
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, was iirc. Now figure the fun when your boot HDD is second partition of hdb
<DocScrutinizer05>
or similar non-standard stuff you frequently see on dualboot/tripleboot systems of hackers like me
<DocScrutinizer05>
GOD I hated mtools
<DocScrutinizer05>
back in that time you could do funny stuff in linux, like `cd /x/y; mv .. x-foobar´ - then you have to deal with a floppy and suddenly A: and B: and C: comes up
<DocScrutinizer05>
and now it all returns, the unbearable messing around with /dev/fd360 /dev/fd720ds and whatnot
<DocScrutinizer05>
*shudder*
<DocScrutinizer05>
ROTFL!!! >> The VFAT file system allows to store the case of a filename in the attribute byte, if all letters of the filename are the same case,<<
<wpwrak>
fd0H1400 and such ... i also freed the linux world from that :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I owe you a fine bottle of vodka!
<DocScrutinizer05>
again LOL > >These formats are supported by numerous DOS shareware utilities such as fdformat and vgacopy. In his infinite hubris, Bill Gate$ believed that he invented this, and called it `DMF disks', or `Windows formatted disks'. But in reality, it has already existed years before! Mtools supports these formats on Linux, on SunOS and on the DELL Unix PC.<<
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<wpwrak>
(vodka) hehe :) see "man setfdprm" for the gory details (or google for "setfdprm", in the likely event that you don't have it installed)
<eintopf>
:/
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<wpwrak>
interestingly enough, nobody seemed to care sufficiently to improve that man page :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
mshowfat :-o
<eintopf>
we should write a fat 2.0
<whitequark>
it's called ext2
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: hey, you been at ETHZ in the early 90s?
<DocScrutinizer05>
you met Wirth? Maier, Boese?
<eintopf>
he met my current professor for operating systems
<DocScrutinizer05>
err s/boese/vogt/?
<whitequark>
Dijkstra?
<DocScrutinizer05>
A&L Mayer&Vogt
<whitequark>
(he was visiting EHTZ in '94)
<eintopf>
tanenbaum
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe tanenbaum
<DocScrutinizer05>
tried to use his minix before linux came out
<eintopf>
i think tanenbaum never was at eth
<eintopf>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas it needed virtual memory which my machine didn't offer back when
<DocScrutinizer05>
MMU
<DocScrutinizer05>
Amiga was a nice machine, but alas had no MMU
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: ETHZ, 87-92, yup. crossed wirth a few times in the corridor. and no, i never met tanenbaum
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm, then I undersatnd why you don't like Pascal and the successors ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly they tortured you with pascal in your ETH courses. And honestly, plain Pascal is wirthless ;-P
<whitequark>
yeah, it's no better than C
<whitequark>
who would voluntarily use such idiotic language, I don't even know
<DocScrutinizer05>
It lacked a few elementary vital things, like runtime file handles
<wpwrak>
naw, had to suffer MODULA, which is worse. and then a bit of oberon.
<whitequark>
or closures and proper lexical scoping
<DocScrutinizer05>
oberon is terrible, Modula is rather nice I think
<wpwrak>
i'd say it's just the opposite :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually turbo pascal been 90% modula and 10% pascal
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, maybe I never bothered about oberon much
<wpwrak>
i hated modula. but oberon was less heavy. alas, wirth decided to keep it proprietary. well, his loss.
<DocScrutinizer05>
heavy as in "redundant"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
begin; end; instead of { }
<DocScrutinizer05>
or runtime heavy?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for runtime, the original wirth languages/dialects always been unusable
<wpwrak>
dunno about runtime efficiency. but yes, lots of typing. felt almost as sluggish as cobol
<DocScrutinizer05>
Turbo OTOH been the killer
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh COBOL, there's nothing as terse a s cobol DOT
<DocScrutinizer05>
.
<wpwrak>
turbo pascal's been great. that's where i really started to learn programming.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had the "joy" to use M-PASCAL (you know, of those siemens BS-M M80 monsters)
<DocScrutinizer05>
err PASCAL-M
<DocScrutinizer05>
had to typecast the IO handles, and write my own open() close()
<wpwrak>
;-))
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can't write recursive flile handling code in plain pascal
<DocScrutinizer05>
max 8 file handles, listed in first line of "PROGRAM foobar (in, out)"
<DocScrutinizer05>
or 4? can't recall
<wpwrak>
who has more than 4 card readers anyway ?
<larsc>
who _needs_
<DocScrutinizer05>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
BS-M had a flat file system device:filename with device something like "PLSK11" and filename 6chars
<DocScrutinizer05>
some genius at Siemens(?) invented "libraries" which mapped max 625 files from ASM.AA to ASM.ZZ to a thing like a dir, like ASM/7CHARFN
<DocScrutinizer05>
ASM.AA was the directory of that lib
<DocScrutinizer05>
those were funny times
<DocScrutinizer05>
if you wonder: Plattenspeicher Lesen Schreiben Kombiniert
<larsc>
yea, when I started programming in 2002 or so things were much more boring
<DocScrutinizer05>
. NOTE DOT (end-if).
<DocScrutinizer05>
only way to make COBOL listings digestible
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least in COBOL-68(?)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sigh, COBOL. computed gosubs, no stack at all, real fun
<DocScrutinizer05>
I really wonder if the concept of a stack got invented after COBOL, or they simply were too stupid and ignorant to implement it in COBOL
<whitequark>
COBOL is the first high-level language ever
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, I know, together with FORTRAN
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly, storing return addr in a storage cell at end of the subroutine? how stupid is THAT?
<whitequark>
PDP-7 had this as the standard procedure call instruction in its ISA
<whitequark>
well, at start of the subroutine
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok at start
<whitequark>
maybe they took inspiration from there
<whitequark>
don't ask how I know about PDP-7
<DocScrutinizer05>
definitely
<whitequark>
I briefly considered porting LLVM to it
* DocScrutinizer05
can't help thinking about bread crumbs in deep forest
<whitequark>
but it has 12-bit bytes, and the amount of places LLVM assumes bytes = octets is so massive I gave up rather quickly
<DocScrutinizer05>
"when I went by here, I came from 7373175"
<whitequark>
also, PDP-7 had self-modifying code as a norm rather than exception
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<whitequark>
e.g. you were supposed to write most loops that way or something
<whitequark>
I don't quite follow their broken logic
<DocScrutinizer05>
never touched PDP-7 only PDP-8
<DocScrutinizer05>
which already been much saner, iirc
<whitequark>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
PDP-7 must be older than me
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-o
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, 5 years younger
<whitequark>
"you're older than PDP-7" sounds almost insulting
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<larsc>
"you are so old, you used a hexeditor to un-delete files!"
<DocScrutinizer05>
life is insulting
<whitequark>
larsc: that's not really old. I mean, it was still happening in late 90s
<whitequark>
I could conceivably do that if I was a few years older
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm so old, we used a shredder to delete files
<whitequark>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
or matches
<DocScrutinizer05>
punch paper tape is funny to burn
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you definitely can't undelete them with a hex editor
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly though, when I started working in a IT job, we already used punch cards as notice papers
<DocScrutinizer05>
nobody punched them anymore, and only few of my colleagues knew how to read them
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually the first programmable device I touched in my life been a HP-25
<DocScrutinizer05>
errr nope, there even been some cheap cheesy crap several years before, a calculator with some 19 program steps or sth, no conditionals though, no loops
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually I used the HP-65 before I had access to HP-25
<DocScrutinizer05>
I definitely should start selling such crap. I guess however that you first need to pay a lot of money to buy a positive article in one of those religious magazines