<rqou>
(this is for the "ok, don't freak out" use case)
<Bike>
REAL electrical engineers don't let arbitrary standards prevent them from receiving aid from such exotic technologies as writing
<awygle>
bluh, this is why i'm such a slow SWE. i'm paralyzed by trying to find the "right" solution instead of just doing the thing.
<rqou>
Bike: hmm yeah i never really considered how "real EEs (or other specialty) should know this shit" is really gatekeep-y
<Bike>
there's some actual value in knowing things faster, like how it's nice to be able to add two digit numbers without using a calculator, but i find that i only rarely have to remember what a weber is within five seconds
<Bike>
(my intro electronics prof bragged about his short tests forcing us to increase how fast we punched calculators. why)
<cyrozap>
azonenberg: What SoC are you targeting? Zynq? And what error are you getting?
<cyrozap>
To read/write memory, you may have to halt the CPUs/disable the MMU.
<balrog>
Bike: at the school I work we have a mathematics department with a reputation for forcing memorization and banning all use of calculators. Of course students have a really hard time, but some believe they do that on purpose.
<cyrozap>
azonenberg: At least, OpenOCD requires the CPU(s) to be halted before it can perform any memory I/O.
<Bike>
well, college math classes don't usually require calculators so much... it just seems so obviously pointless to test that stuff, though
<balrog>
rqou: if something can easily be looked up memorizing it is kinda pointless imo. More useful to have an idea of what one needs to research / look up to work towards the solution
<rqou>
yeah i agree
<rqou>
i put basics on my cheat sheet as a "don't panic" precaution
<balrog>
Bike: modern calculators and computers can be used as a useful teaching tool
<balrog>
For instance things I don’t recall that well include the quadratic formula and the chain rule
<rqou>
lolol
<Bike>
"god, i hate doing homework. maybe something in the manual of this eighty dollar thing can help me out oh it has a 'programming' thingie"
<rqou>
me too
<rqou>
i suck at basic calculus
<rqou>
"wtf is an integration by parts? how do i do that again? meh, just ask wolframalpha"
<Bike>
i don't think i ever learned integration by parts properly
<awygle>
i _love_ basic calculus
<balrog>
I know it but it’s so tedious......
<awygle>
it makes me feel like a badass
<awygle>
too many bad movies with integrals written on chalkboards
<balrog>
It makes me feel like I’m wasting my time when I’m doing it on paper
<awygle>
when it's done automatically i am always very distrustful of it lol
<Bike>
it was kind of intereseting learning about the risch algorithm and that symbolic integration is, in fact, hard in a somewhat meaningful sense
<awygle>
the main thing i use wolfram alpha for is solving systems of equations
<Bike>
and then taking electronics and learning that integration is piss easy. goooood times
<Bike>
balrog: probably. i don't actually know cars very well.
<awygle>
that's because masses are integrations are inductors
<Bike>
i learned how a differential worked and it was like wow, what is this space wizardry
<awygle>
and springs are capacitors. or something.
<sorear>
integration by parts is just the product rule explained badly
<awygle>
integration by parts reminds me of refactoring code
<rqou>
yeah well i can barely do the product rule correctly either :P
<awygle>
you pull out the common factor and suddenly it's much clearer
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<balrog>
The torque converter is a type of fluid coupling that allows the transmission input to run at a different speed as the engine but still receive nearly all the power that it needs from the engine
<Bike>
oh, well, yeah.
<balrog>
It’s pretty integral to the operation of a modern automatic transmission
<Bike>
it's a continuously variable transmission that's pretty literally an integrator, iirc
<Bike>
"integral"! ha ha
<balrog>
Lolol
<Bike>
cyrozap: someone dug up the step-by-step for me and the problem is that it concludes 1/2 * 3/2 = 6/4 at one point
<Bike>
which is a very elementary human kind of mistake, so that's interesting
<balrog>
it's interesting talking to people who have mostly software dev background who are surprised/shocked by how closed FPGA tools are :p
<Bike>
i remember asking my prof how PAR worked and he gave me a brief summary and linked me some old papers but also told me everything public was years out of date, and it took me a few minutes to understand what he meant
* cr1901_modern
rummages thru greenpak apnotes to find a throwaway application to do
<qu1j0t3>
ha!
<qu1j0t3>
cr1901_modern: let me know what you find!
* qu1j0t3
has a GP4 kit here
<cr1901_modern>
qu1j0t3: Class D amplifier (though it's 8-bit output sadly)
<azonenberg>
I now have 7 FPGA boards plugged in on my desk and hooked up
<azonenberg>
Just like old times, lol
<azonenberg>
A spartan6, four artix7, a zynq7, and a vu+
<azonenberg>
And thats only the ones i'm actually using
<reportingsjr>
awygle: whitequark: I was just reading way back in the backlog. Flux for steel doesn't kill soldering iron tips any faster than normal flux. I have to solder to stainless steel every once in a while at work and I use a zinc chloride flux.
<reportingsjr>
Kinda nasty stuff, but it gets the job done.
<balrog>
reportingsjr: probably not as nasty as HCl
<reportingsjr>
No idea, probably wouldn't use HCl :)
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<cr1901_modern>
qu1j0t3: List of all openfpga-relevant apnotes
<cr1901_modern>
Line 58 and above is for SLG4662x, 59 and below is for SLG46140
<cr1901_modern>
lovingly extracted using wget, pandoc, grep, and sec <3
<cr1901_modern>
sed*
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<balrog>
cr1901_modern: that list has been fed to archivebot
<cr1901_modern>
That's great! ... what is archivebot
<balrog>
https://twitter.com/archivebot -- an archiveteam thing that automatically downloads stuff and pushes it to the wayback machine
<awygle>
"gandalf's staff with greenpak"
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<cr1901_modern>
oh God it's a match ._.
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<cr1901_modern>
This was very much not worth the time I spent writing that script to automate getting the contents
<cr1901_modern>
good to know pandoc is smart enough to convert html tables to markdown tables
<awygle>
is there a PDF OCR thing that you can give, like, hints to?
<awygle>
"you're looking for a table, the first column will be these letters in order, the next three columns will be numbers"
<cr1901_modern>
No need: Just look for td/tr/etc
<awygle>
yeah but pdf's aren't always html are they?
<awygle>
i feel like many/most are just bigass images
<awygle>
... i know very little about pdfs
<cr1901_modern>
I didn't need to grep a pdf to find all the apnotes specifically for slg46140
<cr1901_modern>
etc
<awygle>
i'm specifically picturing extracting those JEDEC dimensional tables from component footprints
<awygle>
err, component datasheets, to _make_ footprints
<awygle>
oh huh, the ice40up has dedicated I3C pins?
<awygle>
i thought the fpga was older than that standard
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<cr1901_modern>
qu1j0t3: I can't do a project like this right now, but AN-1213 (Smart Pillow) is very relevant to my interests
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<awygle>
daveshah: i updated the pr. i'll probably amend that last commit once i've got the icebox stuff completed and not in this weird in-between state.
<rqou>
ugh that was hard AF
<awygle>
but now it's over!
<rqou>
time to pray to the god of curving
<openfpga-bot>
[jtaghal] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vpK7s
<openfpga-bot>
jtaghal/master 031216b Andrew D. Zonenberg: Lots of debugging and bringup on ARM memory debug. Still working on figuring things out.
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<awygle>
this sort of looks like that weird ti buck converter architecture
<daveshah>
awygle: Thanks for updating the PR. I'll check through it so far today.
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<awygle>
oh yeah you're in Europe somewhere right?
<awygle>
Timezones....
<daveshah>
Yeah, Vienna
<daveshah>
awygle: left a few comments on the PR for the thing you weren't sure about
<daveshah>
All is going very well so far - and much faster than any previous attempts to add new devices
<azonenberg>
welp THIS is interesting
<azonenberg>
i apparently have a bug in jtagd that causes the kernel to warn that my jtagd didn't claim an interface before using it
<azonenberg>
several times per second
<rqou>
lol
<rqou>
call the claim interface function? :P
<azonenberg>
i just ran out of disk space on / because kern.log, messages, and syslog
<azonenberg>
were each 16 GB
<rqou>
lolol
<azonenberg>
sooo yeah now i get to figure out what is doing it
<rqou>
azonenberg: have you tried, you know, calling libusb_claim_interface? :P
<azonenberg>
The issue is that i don't use libusb
<azonenberg>
i use the ftdi blob and the digilent API
<azonenberg>
one of which presumably has a bug
<azonenberg>
It seems to be related to using a digilent dongle using the ftdi blob api
<azonenberg>
If i use the digilent API instead it appears to work fine
<azonenberg>
So that's my temporary workaround
<rqou>
why are you using their craptastic code?
<azonenberg>
Because the open source libftdi was completely nonfunctional when i last used it in 2012, and i didnt have time to debug
<azonenberg>
And some of the digilent devkits use non-ftdi programmers
<azonenberg>
e.g. a pic24
<azonenberg>
So i have to use the blob or RE their protocol
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<awygle>
daveshah: you're right that lattice claims no warmboot, but also, there's a warmboot tile in the bottom right of the floor planner. So... *shrug?*
<rqou>
awygle which part is this?
<azonenberg>
awygle: broken? :p
<daveshah>
awygle: great, definitely worth a hardware test
<daveshah>
I think it could be a mistake in the docs - it's fairly certain there's no NVCM in the LM, but maybe WARMBOOT is actually there and working
<daveshah>
Could be they were going to remove it, but didn't...
<daveshah>
Have you tried a design with a SB_WARMBOOT in icecube?
<awygle>
LM
<awygle>
@ rqou
<awygle>
daveshah: nope
<rqou>
oh the weird one
<daveshah>
awygle: would be good to check at some point, then you can check the routing too
<awygle>
bummer about that nvcm, would have been useful for one of my proposed applications
<daveshah>
Well, maybe again it does have NVCM at that document was out of date
<awygle>
daveshah: actually I did synth one, because I ran some test script
<awygle>
but I didn't poke at it too much
<daveshah>
OK, that's good
<awygle>
Per your comment about the speed, it's 100% due to all the work you and Clifford and tannewt did ahead of me. I just copy stuff and change 5k to lm4k lol
<daveshah>
awygle: random thought about the 2 PLLs in the lm4k. It could be different PLLs are bonded out in different package variants?
<awygle>
hm could be
<awygle>
I didn't check but it's easy enough to do
<awygle>
BTW I currently think all the LM parts are the same die
<awygle>
2k and 4k definitely are
<daveshah>
They are definitely
<daveshah>
The 1k cannot physically be a real part
<daveshah>
It claims to have 1100 LUTs, but 1100 is not divisible by 8 :/
<daveshah>
Need to try harder, Lattice
<awygle>
Lol
<daveshah>
There is, to my knowledge, only one die each for LM, Ultra, UltraLite and UltraPlus
<daveshah>
In all cases icecube just implements a resource limit, not locking out parts of a chip
<daveshah>
So you can be sure the whole die is functional
<awygle>
What jerks
<awygle>
Saves me money though I guess
<rqou>
does icestorm support any of these at this point?
<daveshah>
Yeah, and fuzzing time
<daveshah>
rqou: only the ultraplus
<daveshah>
It was a nice bonus to have fuzzed the 5k and find I got 3k support for free
<awygle>
rqou: after graduation you could add ultra in a weekend or two
<daveshah>
yeah, that would be awesome
<awygle>
To first order
<awygle>
Dev board is only 50$
<awygle>
Okay everyone, goodnight
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<egg|zzz|egg>
hmm, did somebody talk about eggs
<egg|zzz|egg>
oh, about integrators!
<azonenberg>
As soon as somebody has an fpga with working serdes supported by open tools, i'm very interested :)
<azonenberg>
even if its "only" 1.25 Gbps i can still do ethernet with it
<rqou>
ugh, prjtrellis is C++ _and_ boost
<azonenberg>
Soo i'm gonna be submitting a talk to the PNW FPGA meetup some time in the next month or so
<azonenberg>
Possible topics include:
<azonenberg>
* coolrunner bitstream RE, culminating in frying a 2c32a live on stage
<azonenberg>
* antikernel
<rqou>
yawn, old news
<azonenberg>
* tragiclaser
<azonenberg>
* other ideas?
<azonenberg>
maybe greenpak stuff? or the higher level netlist re stuff?
<rqou>
idk, what have you been working on other than the house?
<azonenberg>
$dayjob, $sidegig, and tooling to support those
<azonenberg>
:p
<rqou>
wtf
<azonenberg>
a little bit of dev for the starshipraider hyperram controller
<rqou>
can you please finish the friggin house?
<azonenberg>
A bunch of board design for the switch
<azonenberg>
rqou: lol, over the weekend i got almost the whole second floor wired
<rqou>
is demo done?
<azonenberg>
Upstairs, pretty much
<azonenberg>
I may still pull out the stone facing by the fireplace
<azonenberg>
but i wanted to get a chimney guy's opinion on whether it was salvageable first
<azonenberg>
He's coming next week
<rqou>
wait why?
<azonenberg>
There's a few tidbits of insulation in corners i have to vacuum out but nothign substantial
<azonenberg>
Among other things, the old fireplace is in bad shape and had an insert put in
<azonenberg>
The insert is too tiny to be useful and wasnt in good shape either
<rqou>
my parents kept our chimney even though the fireplace is no longer functional
<azonenberg>
I'm removing the insert
<azonenberg>
Depending on condition of the fireplace itself, i may repair it or rebuild it
<rqou>
apparently because putting it back would be a huge pain
<azonenberg>
If i have to fully replace the fireplace, then the stone facing in front needs to go
<azonenberg>
the hearth is definitely too small ,its like 6" in front of the fireplace
<azonenberg>
code requires 12 or 18
<rqou>
oh you're just removing the stone facing?
<azonenberg>
so that has to be expanded
<azonenberg>
Well, if the fireplace itself gets replaced then the stone would have to in order to get it out
<azonenberg>
We will have a fireplace when all is said and done
<azonenberg>
The only question is how much of the old stuff has to come out
<azonenberg>
and how much can be saved
<rqou>
yeah my parents removed most of the facing and just boarded it up
<azonenberg>
Ideally i want heat exchanger fins in the chimney
<azonenberg>
and a blower motor to circulate air through it
<rqou>
since we've never used the fireplace
<azonenberg>
So i can actually extract useful heat from it
<azonenberg>
I want the ability to heat the house when grid power is down, i cant run a giant heat pump on my generator
<azonenberg>
But i can burn wood and run a small fan off the generator
<azonenberg>
Neighbors tell me the power is more reliable in this neighborhood than where i live now, but we've seen the microwave and stove clock reset several times during the construction
<azonenberg>
I dont know how long those outages were
<rqou>
have you considered an oil burner instead?
<rqou>
they're supposedly much more efficient and clean
<azonenberg>
Permits for that are nontrivial, and i like having a fireplace for atmosphere anyway
<azonenberg>
i'd never use it as the primary means of heating the house
<azonenberg>
But it's a useful backup when grid power is unavailable
<azonenberg>
And fun to roast marshmallows on otherwise :p
<rqou>
wtf this needs a permit?
<azonenberg>
Putting in an oil tank? yes
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<azonenberg>
among other things probably needs a seismic evaluation
<azonenberg>
To make sure it wont rip off the house and leak all over the place into the bay if we get a small quake
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<azonenberg>
also a heat pump furnace is AC almost for free
<azonenberg>
Which is nice
<azonenberg>
The existing furnace is like 10-12 years old so not new, but has been regularly serviced and shows no signs of impending doom at the moment
<azonenberg>
I want to redo it at some point, but its not a critical priority
<rqou>
wait if you have a furnace why the heck do you need a fireplace?
<azonenberg>
a) for fun, nice to curl up in front of on a cold winter night
<azonenberg>
b) to heat the house if grid power is down
<rqou>
fireplaces are annoying, polluting, and don't even produce much heat
<azonenberg>
You clearly are not used to living in a place with unreliable power
<azonenberg>
When you've gone a full night in a house without working heat because there's no electricity, you'll understand why i want one :p
<rqou>
I'd probably use an oil burner
<azonenberg>
again, that would involve replacing the existing furnace and is actually MORE polluting in the long run
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: also in the direction of (a), the cat likes to be on seats heated by the fire
<rqou>
lol
<azonenberg>
Fireplaces burn renewable resources and are only used occasionally
<egg|zzz|egg>
rqou: you wouldn't want to displease the cat would you
<azonenberg>
Electric heat pumps can be run on renewable power, a lot of hydro and solar and wind out here
<rqou>
can't you keep the furnace and get a small oil stove?
<azonenberg>
We have a furnace and a fireplace now
<azonenberg>
I just want to fix the fireplace
<azonenberg>
You cant roast marshmallows over an oil stove
<rqou>
lol fine
<azonenberg>
And by putting a heat exchanger in the chimeny you can massively *increase* the efficiency of it for heating
<egg|zzz|egg>
or andouillettes
<rqou>
azonenberg: it's always a bit weird to me how much you actually do strive for "classic Americana"
<rqou>
azonenberg: I'm going to keep mocking you and asking when you'll have a doggo and 1.84 kids :P
<azonenberg>
I thought i'm a tad too old to be a proper millennial?
<azonenberg>
i forget when the cutoff is
<azonenberg>
and $wife is probably going to make a trip to the animal shelter as soon as we have safe, sharp-object-free floor installed on most of the house
<azonenberg>
To pick up (if we're lucky) only one pupper :p
<rqou>
pew research says millennials are 1981-1996
<rqou>
so including me and you and just barely not including clifford
<azonenberg>
they wont fit any normal clothing
<azonenberg>
or a normal baby chair
<daveshah>
too young to be a millennial lol
<daveshah>
97
<azonenberg>
they probably have trouble walking
<azonenberg>
So, not my thing
<azonenberg>
That was 0.58 kids if i recall correctly?
<azonenberg>
been a logn time since i read the book
<azonenberg>
rqou: but yes i have no intention of being average
<azonenberg>
and i probably do act older than i am, i've always done that
<rqou>
azonenberg: get with the program and get several cats, no kids, a huge pile of dakis, and a fursuit :P :P :P
<azonenberg>
a) cats stink and $wife is allergic
<azonenberg>
b) lab assistants are nice
<azonenberg>
c) i've been joking that she should make one of me to snuggle with when i'm away on business trips, but she's never taken me up on the offer :P
<azonenberg>
d) i actually DO want to contact a fursuiter at some point, but not for a fursuit
<azonenberg>
i just think they have the right skills for the project
<rqou>
O_o what
<azonenberg>
see, we want to make one of the bedrooms themed "Kanto hunting lodge"
<azonenberg>
with a "gun rack" on the wall full of poke balls
<azonenberg>
a Stantler head on a plaque on the wall
<azonenberg>
an Arcanine-skin rug on the floor
<azonenberg>
etc
<rqou>
wtf
<azonenberg>
maybe a can of slowpoke tails somewhere?
<rqou>
are you/$WIFE furries? :P
<azonenberg>
More like weebs
<rqou>
didn't you know that one single slowpoke tail is supposed to cost you 1 million yen? :P :P :P
<rqou>
also, i think any cosplayer/prop-maker can probably build this
<rqou>
you don't strictly need a fursuiter
<azonenberg>
probably, we just figured for a full-on plush head of a pokemon a fursuiter would likely have the right skills
<azonenberg>
Even if its not meant to be / capable of being worn
<azonenberg>
But i imagine it wont be cheap so it wont happen any time soon
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<rqou>
i was about to say "see, this is where all your money went" :P
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
no my money is all going to building materials and paying contractors
<azonenberg>
And probably that thermal monocular soon, there's a 6-8 week lead time and i wanted it in time for a training exercise in july if possible
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<azonenberg>
That's our only overnight training before the fall training season starts and i wanted to do a realistic test to get more familiar with it before using it on an actual mission
<azonenberg>
When minutes count and lives are on the line, it's not a good time to be learning your way around new gear
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<pie_>
are usb drives that get hot when plugged in badly designed?
<awygle>
Damn, daveshah making me feel ancient and slow :-P (I'm 91)
<daveshah>
awygle: lol
<daveshah>
It's nice to be young and not worring about azonenberg stuff :P
<awygle>
I mean I'm renting, unmarried, and not planning to have kids :-P it can be done regardless of age
<daveshah>
well I've only barely moved out from my parents (and will be back there in 5 months)
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<whitequark>
awygle: whoa
<pie_>
hm sel4 on riscv, nice.
<pie_>
at first i couldnt figure out why you were linking that, took me a bit to figure out this is a group of articles :P
<daveshah>
lol at that article I'm afraid
<daveshah>
"resistor-transistor logic (RTL) interface, written in Verilog"
<daveshah>
For the hyperram interface
<awygle>
Yeah I reported that lol
<daveshah>
Thanks
<awygle>
Clearly gave the newsletter to an intern
<awygle>
(not that there's anything wrong with interns)
<daveshah>
Authors bio is "Freelance journo. News editor, bit-tech.net. Author, Raspberry Pi & BBC Micro:bit User Guides. Custom PC columnist. Bylines in PC Pro, The MagPi, HackSpace etc."
* whitequark
reads backlog
<whitequark>
fursuits, fursuits, cats, fursuits
<whitequark>
what do you do with your cats so they stink
<whitequark>
also (though not saying it's an option for you) my roommate used to have a cat allergy but then we trained her immune system and now she doesn't
<whitequark>
turns out if it isn't very severe but more like just strongly annoying, you can do desensitization yourself
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<awygle>
My cats don't stink but the fact that they're indoor cats and my apartment is not large means there's an occasional litter box smell component
<awygle>
Also they track that shit everywhere, I need a roomba so I don't have to sweep so much...
<whitequark>
I feel like we need some docs or something but I need to bring up the FIFOs first
<awygle>
whitequark: I thought I tagged Rev A already?
<whitequark>
awygle: rev-a vs revA
<whitequark>
I just prefer to have the same style everywhere
<awygle>
Ahh sure
<rqou>
whitequark: despite the joking i actually have neither dakis nor a fursuit
<rqou>
although there is a daki somewhere in this apartment (but it's not mine i promise)
* whitequark
sighs
<rqou>
also, how do you do immune system _de_sensitization?
<rqou>
I've only ever seen "make sure you actually do wear gloves when working with <foo> or you can potentially cause immune system sensitization"
<whitequark>
rqou: by exposing it to the allergen in a controlled manner, duh
<whitequark>
in this case, just playing with cats a lot while on antihistamines
<rqou>
why does that also cause sensitization for some chemicals?
<whitequark>
she doesn't need them anymore after several weeks
<whitequark>
sensitization works differently
<whitequark>
specifically, first exposure starts sensitization, which happens over a period of time where you *don't* encounter the allergen
<whitequark>
then, second exposure triggers an adverse reaction
<rqou>
ah
<whitequark>
if you then repeatedly expose immune system to the allergen you can reverse it. terms and conditions may apply
<whitequark>
this all is very simplified
<rqou>
so that's how my chemistry teacher ended up with a sensitivity to formic acid
<rqou>
because you probably don't want to be exposing yourself to that on purpose :
<rqou>
:P
<whitequark>
why not
<whitequark>
make it a small concentration
<whitequark>
formic acid is surprisingly nasty so far as organic acids go but your immune system doesn't need like a 10% solution
<qu1j0t3>
/b 6
<rqou>
is this also how polyurethane isocyanates usually have warnings, but improperly cured polyurethane seems to mostly affect "regular people" and not the installers who messed it up in the first place?
<rqou>
because the installers get exposed all the time?
<rqou>
huh, in general the human immune system seems ridiculously difficult to understand
<rqou>
proof against intelligent design? "nobody would design something this obfuscated" :P
<Bike>
i think it's more that it's general
<Bike>
it does the same kind of pattern recognition stuff your brain does, only if it goes wrong you choke because of pollen or something
<pie_>
immune system education needs to be revamped. add epistemiology to the curriculum
<Bike>
yeah i would have liked to have gotten, like, any information at all
<rqou>
oh what antibodies are "huge" in relative terms: "The size of an antibody molecule is about 10 nm"
<Bike>
or a magic school bus episode about somatic hypermutation
<pie_>
Bike, i meant like, when your immune system goes to school
<Bike>
oh. that would be good too
<pie_>
The Magic Lymphocyte Bus
<Bike>
i mean they did an episode that involved antibodies, i think
<rqou>
goddammit "In the United States, [sublingual immunotherapy drop] formulations have not yet received FDA approval, though off-label prescription is becoming common."
<rqou>
this might be why I've never heard about this
<rqou>
FDA: dodged the thalidomide bullet, has been bureaucratically slowing every down since
<Bike>
it links a list of valid mime types which is an ftp site
<Bike>
(and broken)
<rqou>
hey, i'm looking for a paper that was floating around either here or on birbsite recently about binary translation using "brute force" by just disassembling at every single possible offset and then using jump tables
<rqou>
anybody know what i'm talking about and have the title?
<pie_>
i think i was talking about that at some point
<pie_>
hold on
<rqou>
ping awygle, azonenberg, whoever else is "an academic" here :P
<pie_>
i totally want to go on about how ive had that idea for ages but meh :P
<rqou>
i mean, it's kinda an obvious idea
<rqou>
the breakthrough is "wait, this idea works?"
<pie_>
yeah
<pie_>
i know i have it in my wiki somewhere but i cant find it offhand
<whitequark>
awygle: so in theory I have the FIFO configuration pinned
<whitequark>
now I just need USB descriptors and gateware
<rqou>
ugh their code is a big ad-hoc mess like i expected
<rqou>
whitequark: does llvm understand opcode semantics? can it disassemble opcodes back into LLVM IR? (yes, i know llvm IR is still non-portable in many ways)
<rqou>
can llvm be used like qemu?
<rqou>
as an opcode interpreter?
<q3k>
you can use pyvex + simuvex
<q3k>
I'm not aware of an llvm ir interpreter
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<rqou>
but can llvm do opcodes->ir?
<Bike>
opcodes of what? i mean, there's a disassembler
<rqou>
for all opcodes? or only for the ones that llvm actually emits?
<Bike>
that i don't know
<rqou>
"Control flow recovery is performed using the mcsema-disass tool, which relies on IDA Pro to disassemble a binary file and produce a control flow graph."
<rqou>
that's totally not what i wanted
<q3k>
well control flow recovery is difficult
<q3k>
you need control flow recovery for ssa lifting
<rqou>
the whole point of the paper i just asked for is that you don't
<rqou>
why are there so many projects that need to understand cpu opcode semantics, and yet there is no unified way to express these semantics and share code?
<rqou>
as in, a real spice tool with the MAME engine
<balrog>
"CPU requirements are much higher - the game now maxes out at around 200% on a 4ghz i7 processor. Before the discrete sound it ran at 4500% on the same setup - analog simulation is expensive folks."
<rqou>
it does mixed analog/digital simulation too?
<q3k>
it has probably more features now than mentor graphics cosimulation tools
<balrog>
yep, though connecting the simulation engine to the emulation has some clock domain issues IIRC
<rqou>
seriously, why isn't this extracted out into a real eCAD tool?
<q3k>
rqou: do it and make millions
<balrog>
using this stuff is poorly understood *within the team* :/
<awygle>
Who wrote all this?
<rqou>
somebody who went to $FANCY_SCHOOL? :P
<q3k>
fancy schools don't sponspor working on emulators for vidya game consoles, do they
<awygle>
I mean bless the people who have incredible skills and only care about retro video games, but also...
<rqou>
hey, they finally put up a tiny little commemorative plaque a few decades late :P :P :P
<rqou>
(awygle: i'm talking about the SPICE plaque they put up in Cory)
<balrog>
who wrote the discrete subsystem? someone who does PLC programming and barely has time for it and shows up once in a while
<balrog>
[14:18:51] <rqou>somebody who went to $FANCY_SCHOOL? :P
<balrog>
generally not :p
<rqou>
i mean, i only said this because a research group here wrote SPICE originally
<balrog>
ahhhh
<balrog>
I wish more people would explore the MAME codebase (especially now that it's under a more usable license), but it seems the barrier to entry is high for a few reasons
<Bike>
man, that's crazy. someone's gonna work out how to do matrix exponentiation in linear time because they really want an old arcade game to run at less than 500% cpu
<q3k>
similarly, dolphin-emu is quite the engineering feat
<rqou>
yeah i'm aware of that
<balrog>
Bike: or more like sound correctly :)
<balrog>
using sound samples isn't the same
<rqou>
but does it simulate parasitics yet? :P
<rqou>
like sid simulators
<Bike>
just going off the 4500% comment
<balrog>
that means it slowed down a ton :P
<daveshah>
one day MAME will just take an atomic level model of the arcade machines...
<balrog>
daveshah: I wish, but I find that unlikely
<Bike>
the other day my lab was looking at computers and one advertised it was fast enough to do 400-something nanoseconds in a day
<cr1901_modern>
daveshah: We can't even get DICE to run at full speed
<Bike>
probably like... a lot less than a mol of material too
<Bike>
an arcade board might be tricky.
<awygle>
dolphin runs the best dev blog I've ever read bar none
<balrog>
cr1901_modern: DICE ended up getting assimilated into this component of MAME
<rqou>
waiting for MAME to get quantum-mechanical simulations so that noise in the audio path is emulated accurately :P
<rqou>
wait wat
<rqou>
DICE is now part of MAME?
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<daveshah>
I imagine it will end up beating every commercial ASIC tool in the unstoppable quest for accuracy
<balrog>
(it's still a separate project as well)
<rqou>
wait, DICE is a digital sim, right?
<rqou>
i would have expected real-time performance to be achievable
<cr1901_modern>
DICE is an analog simulator
<rqou>
oh
<rqou>
nmv
<rqou>
nvm
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<cr1901_modern>
for digital circuits :)
<balrog>
so is MAME's simulator
<balrog>
cr1901_modern: wait, I thought it simulated analog chips as well
<cr1901_modern>
It might, I just know it b/c it can't emulate pong at full speed
<cr1901_modern>
oh wait, pong _is_ analog
<balrog>
lol there's an mm5837 simulation in MAME
<balrog>
(broadband white noise source)
<rqou>
MAME is pretty impressive
<balrog>
(that implements the 17 bit shift register)
<rqou>
soon it'll be at the forefront of eCAD tools _and_ chip RE
<balrog>
I wish the debug capabilities were better utilized
<whitequark>
you can have more than one control endpoint in usb?!
<rqou>
wat
<rqou>
i though you couldn't?
<whitequark>
there's endpoint descriptors for control endpoints
<whitequark>
but the spec says that there is never an endpoint descriptor for EP0
<whitequark>
so, this implies that non-EP0 can be a control endpoint
<whitequark>
but this makes nosense
<rqou>
wtf yeah
<rqou>
ask scanlime? :P
<rqou>
oh wtf the Dorito actually pulled out of the Iran deal
<q3k>
whitequark: yeah
<q3k>
whitequark: as far as I understand you can
<whitequark>
wtf usb
<q3k>
whitequark: not sure if People Actually Do This
<whitequark>
libusb doesn't even have that!
<q3k>
whitequark: yep, SETUP packets are normal TOKEN packets (same as IN, OUT, SOF) and the all contain ADDR and ENDP (device address and endpoint number)
<q3k>
whitequark: USB is not my favourite standard (tm)
<rqou>
alright, i need to be a troll and make a device with multiple control endpoints
<rqou>
bonus if/when you crash a host driver stack
<q3k>
i don't think you'll crash much by just being another wierdo endpoint
<q3k>
because the host has to initiate any transactions anyway
<rqou>
and yet, psjailbreak :P
<cr1901_modern>
what's so weird about multiple control endpoints?
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: I have not seen any support for them anywhere
<whitequark>
and they seem just kinda pointless
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: it's a Spanish Inquisition sort of situation
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: nobody expects it
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: Ahh well I got started w/ USB recently, so I had to read part of the spec. So I'm still "green" wrt "what do other libraries do"
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: the ep0 control endpoint is there just to bootstrap the device and gain knowledge about what other endpoints it has
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: so having that bootstrap endpoint mention 'yeah btw there's another control endpoint here' is somewhat odd
<rqou>
hmm q3k if you actually understand usb, i'd like (at some point in the future) some opinions on what you would expect in a hypothetical "libusbgadget" api
<cr1901_modern>
Use the ep0 for bootstrap/maintenance tasks/what the spec expects, use another control endpoint for custom shit
<q3k>
rqou: I suck at USB
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: but you might as well use BULK
<cr1901_modern>
q3k: My hypothetical application is an fx2 device where a second control endpoint tells it "time to load new firmware"
<whitequark>
why would you need a second control endpoint?
<whitequark>
it's just a vendor request
<whitequark>
I have it...
<cr1901_modern>
Ahh, then I guess you don't
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: besides, fx2 doesn't support any control endpoints other than ep0 :P
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: use interrupt or bulk
<whitequark>
no just do it over ep0
<whitequark>
don't waste a good endpoint on stupid shi
<whitequark>
you want wIndex anyway
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: generally bulk is what you end up using most of the time
<q3k>
whitequark: eh
<rqou>
aaargh i just realized how i've been trolled for hours by one of the questions on my take-home final
<rqou>
unfortunately i can't show it until tomorrow
<rqou>
the answer is pretty trivial once you realize how you're getting trolled
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: Cool, noted. Also, can you tell I don't actually remember the concrete use-case :P?
<rqou>
but i guess that's pretty typical
<rqou>
"the answer is obvious once you know what the answer is"
<cr1901_modern>
(I ran into an issue where I could load new firmware onto an fx2 device on Linux but not Windoze. I don't remember the details other than I wanted to use "the last free endpoint for Windoze-specific config")
<cr1901_modern>
Which is prob a terrible idea
<whitequark>
q3k: [178515.044150] usb 1-2: config 0 descriptor??
<whitequark>
what is linux trying to tell me here
<genii>
Probably that you should run update-usbids
<cr1901_modern>
Oh, now I remember: Said device (FPGA dev board) configures itself as a serial port on Windows; the device uses a special program that talks over libusb to send the FX2 commands/firmware to reconfigure itself. >>
<q3k>
whitequark: what did he mean by this :thonking:
<cr1901_modern>
Windoze has a nice limitation where you can't switch between serial port to libusb and back on demand. So I suggested making the device + driver a composite on Windows, where the secondary "device" serves as a control channel
<cr1901_modern>
To get around how stupid libusb acts on Windoze
<q3k>
* @configuration is the value of the configuration to be installed.
<q3k>
* According to the USB spec (e.g. section 9.1.1.5), configuration values
<q3k>
* must be non-zero; a value of zero indicates that the device in
<q3k>
* unconfigured. However some devices erroneously use 0 as one of their
<q3k>
* configuration values.
<q3k>
whitequark: ^
<cr1901_modern>
(alternatively, I could not use libusb at all; I'm not sure how to make the serial port/libusb work at the same time on Windows)
<whitequark>
q3k: oh
<whitequark>
thanks
<q3k>
also why is this code so well documented
<q3k>
since when is there good code in Linux
<pie_>
q3k, so....do they basically ignore that value? xD
<q3k>
no, it lets you set this configuration as the active configuration on the device
<rqou>
is this the feature that allows for mobile broadband modems to appear as cd rom drives by default?
<whitequark>
yes
<Bike>
is that useful in some context
<whitequark>
sure
<whitequark>
glasgow has a configuration 1 that's two interfaces, and configuration 2 that's one
<whitequark>
or do you mean cd rom drives?
<whitequark>
that's just integrated drivers
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<Bike>
i meant the modem as cd rom thing, yes
<q3k>
that's just multiple configurations, not configuration id 0
<q3k>
then some devices will not return te availability of more than one configuration until you send a magic message
<q3k>
so that windows doesn't start off with a 'GIB DRIVERS'
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
this is dumb
<whitequark>
okay moment of truth
<whitequark>
*connects all 16 channels of logic analyzer to future logic analyzer*
<rqou>
yeah, windows "gib drivers" is dumb
<rqou>
i don't know how I'm supposed to feel about the devices that allegedly enumerate as a mouse/keyboard to dismiss all the driver toasters
<whitequark>
oh what the hell, most fx2 logic analyzers trigger on the HOST?!
<whitequark>
er no
<whitequark>
logic16 even
<q3k>
yes
<whitequark>
this is dumb
<q3k>
yes
<whitequark>
this hting has an fpga in it
<q3k>
yeeeeep
<whitequark>
what's the fucking point of having an fpga in it
<whitequark>
if it can neither trigger on device nor even has any decent performance
* q3k
has a 'write open source bitstream for logic pro16' on his backlog for a while now
<pie_>
whitequark, ....what.
<whitequark>
this one has an altera fpga (i think?) with the firmware permaflashed
<whitequark>
as in it ignores whatever is downloaded from the host
<whitequark>
"mcupro" says the silkscreen
<pie_>
wait so is this logic16 then? (is that something other than fx2)
<rqou>
welcome to the world of "why do LAs all suck?"
<pie_>
herp derp anyone can make an la? :P
<whitequark>
pie_: it has an fx2 but also an fpga
<whitequark>
and it's a logic16 "clone" but not actually a clone
<pie_>
ok
<whitequark>
it uses the same fx2 firmware but different fpga and bitstream
<rqou>
btw my father has one of those ancient heavy rackmount LAs and they suck too (for modern use cases)
<whitequark>
rqou: well glasgow wont suck :P
<whitequark>
worst case i can just build a different bitstream for every trigger condition
<pie_>
rqou, betcha cant kill it with anything below 50 volts lol
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: fx2lafw doesn't trigger on the host (assuming I understand what you mean)
<whitequark>
oh huh
<whitequark>
so this is *worse* than fx2lafw
<rqou>
they can set up advanced triggers to e.g. trigger when your cpu fetches vector <n>, but it doesn't have serial decode or deep memory
<rqou>
and then of course they're a hundred pounds or so and don't fit in your backpack :p
<cr1901_modern>
Of course, fx2lafw is limited to saelae (sp) clones
<whitequark>
no it isn't
<whitequark>
you can use it on literally anything that has FD bus of FX2LP connected to probes
<cr1901_modern>
Could glasgow use it (not that you'd want to)?
<whitequark>
arguably, it was saleae who cloned DP's Logic Sniffer
<whitequark>
ah no
<whitequark>
that's a different device
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: sorta?
<rqou>
wait DP started this "shit but good enough LA" thing?
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
rqou: actually no, that has an FPGA
<whitequark>
not sure who started it
<balrog>
Saleae is a streaming device
<balrog>
pretty sure DP's Logic Sniffer isn't
<balrog>
(it uses an SRAM buffer)
<balrog>
I have a pro16
<whitequark>
oh
<rqou>
oh yeah, i also don't know why streaming test equipment is so uncommon
<rqou>
other than NI and Saleae
<cr1901_modern>
My CWAV USBEE uses the fx2lafw. It's advertised as a saleae clone, and when I add triggers to pulseview, the USBEE honors them
<cr1901_modern>
Idling in a tight loop waiting for trigger condition?
<whitequark>
well sure, that's because it uses GPIF for triggers (I think)
<kc8apf>
rqou: those big chassis were great for capturing processor buses at 1.6GHz
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: Is that what you meant by "device triggered"?
<whitequark>
yes
<cr1901_modern>
Okay cool, just wanted to make sure
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<kc8apf>
decoding on it was a joke though. Much easier to export and run decoding separately
<rqou>
kc8apf: yeah, but i don't know if the old one in the garage is that fast
<kc8apf>
I wonder if Tek every fixed their binary log exporter
<cr1901_modern>
USBEE also has an analog channel, according to sigrok, but it's not exposed on the connector
<rqou>
i never tried any exporter on this one because it's floppy disk only
<cr1901_modern>
(and when I enable it, pulseview refuses to capture data)
<kc8apf>
oh, one of _those_
<kc8apf>
I gave that generation away
<rqou>
yeah, it's old AF
<rqou>
which is why it's in the garage unused
<kc8apf>
might be one that runs HP-UX
<rqou>
there's also a very early gen Tek DSO in the garage if anybody might want that :P
<rqou>
afaik it still works just fine
<rqou>
except the vector crt seems to have some minor issues with the colors not lining up
<q3k>
kc8apf: sometimes you need hw decoding though :/
<q3k>
kc8apf: ie. for triggering off of complex protocols
<kc8apf>
q3k: we tried and gave up
<qu1j0t3>
rqou: I might want that ;-)
<rqou>
local pickup only
<kc8apf>
it was faster to trigger simply and post-process
<q3k>
that's why I really need ot go back to hacking on siglents so that everyone can just write their protocol decoders and triggers in migen/verilog
<q3k>
kc8apf: yeah if you can do that - I want to be able to trigger off of, for example, a USB transaction and immediately route that trigger to some fault injection circuitry
<q3k>
kc8apf: (and not to just find what I need in a long-ass csv)
<whitequark>
something something glasgow
<q3k>
whitequark: can it do 1GSa/s? :P
<rqou>
q3k: have you considered building your own test equipment? :P
<whitequark>
q3k: yes
<whitequark>
with a custom frontend
<pie_>
hey qu1j0t3 rqou has a scope in the garage :PP
<daveshah>
q3k: no worries, I literally just need a valid bitstream to run through Lattice's dump tool which gets a tilegrid
<daveshah>
Including frame and bit offsets and counts for all tiles
<daveshah>
Then what happens inside the tiles is the same for all parts - except SERDES tiles of course
<daveshah>
Fuzzing the SERDESs themselves is a way off though
<q3k>
the serdeses on that thing are a beast
<daveshah>
The problem is that most of those applications need a PnR with decent timing
<daveshah>
And that could be a long way off
<daveshah>
It would also be good to see if you can use the SERDES inside ecp5s sold without one
<q3k>
heh
<daveshah>
Although it may be out of spec or part damaged, could be a curiosity
<rqou>
daveshah: no afaik
<awygle>
they are the same part, just binned
<rqou>
i saw a blog post where someone accidentally tried that
<awygle>
but i think it's _actual_ binning, like the 3G ones won't work at 5G
<daveshah>
rqou: there's an IDCODE check in the bitstream
<daveshah>
And they do have different IDCODEs
<whitequark>
could be efuses
<daveshah>
Likewise a 12k and 25k are the same silicon, just with a different efuse
<daveshah>
Exactly
<daveshah>
The 12k in diamond is just a resource limit
<daveshah>
Afaics
<awygle>
are the 45 and the 85 the same silicon?
<daveshah>
Nope
<daveshah>
Different bitstream layout
<awygle>
ah
<daveshah>
And tile grid
<cr1901_modern>
Is it possible to tell openfpga to use a different yosys than the one I have on my path?
<q3k>
this is the first time I see a question about openfpga on this channel
<whitequark>
hahaha
<pie_>
wait....theres a program called openfpga?
<cr1901_modern>
openfpga is a channel about anime
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: I think it's -DYOSYS
<awygle>
oh actually i take back my earlier assertion. i don't know if the non-serdes parts are the same as the serdes parts, but i know the -5G parts are the same as the slower serdes parts
<cr1901_modern>
thanks, there's a (set YOSYS) var in CMakeLists.txt, but I forget how to CMake
<daveshah>
Yeah, I know the SERDES are the main cause of yield issues so that is why all fpga firms bin parts
<daveshah>
Eg spartan-7
<daveshah>
If people like pretty things, here is the LFE5U-25K tilegrid
<daveshah>
whitequark: my guess is its something to do with how they stripped down the ecp5
<q3k>
daveshah: if you change that min-height into height in td it'll work
<daveshah>
q3k: thanks
<q3k>
daveshah: height: 100% only works when you explicitely define the height of its' parent element, and apparently on min-height explicitely in firefox too
<daveshah>
I know lattice has at least one other tool that is excel based
<daveshah>
For generating register maps iirc
<rqou>
blame jeff dione
<rqou>
*dionne
<whitequark>
so I've been told that every major CPU vendor has their instruction decoders done in Excel
<whitequark>
by various people
<rqou>
this isn't excel
<rqou>
it's openoffice :P
<q3k>
so now, you just need to get them cloud ready
<whitequark>
same difference
<q3k>
move the spreadsheets to google drive
<q3k>
then use migen to pull from there and generate rtl
<pie_>
stop
<q3k>
integrate with CI
<q3k>
????
<pie_>
stop
<q3k>
ENTERPRISE
<rqou>
lolol
<rqou>
where's the perl? :P
<pie_>
rqou, what do you mean perl
<pie_>
excel is going to have javascript
<daveshah>
Can be used to accelerate BLOCKCHAIN
<rqou>
every hdl flow has to have perl/tcl in it somewhere :P
<daveshah>
100mn of VC cash appears
<pie_>
VV C
<daveshah>
Everyone loves tcl
<daveshah>
Although I fear lattice are modernising away from tcl
<daveshah>
Their latest IP generators in Radiant are wait for it
<daveshah>
Python based
<daveshah>
Although the user console is still TCL
<openfpga-github>
[Glasgow] awygle commented on issue #38: Mmm... maybe. The problem with the 0.5mm pitch is, you can't get vias *or* traces between balls on 6/6 trace/space specs. I'll investigate this at the same time as doing the HX routing - 0.8mm parts have similar-but-not-the-same problems, so seeing what we *need* to do will help us figure out what it'll cost us to do the optional stuff. https://github.com/whiteq
<q3k>
- what automation do you have here? - oh, we got both kinds: tcl AND python!
<rqou>
and .bat? :P
<q3k>
it's incredible that tcl gained such traction just because it doesn't require parentheses for function calls
<daveshah>
q3k: I suppose it means they can provide a conventional shell type environment with TCL
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<rqou>
offtopic: someone really needs to get @nanographs some turbopumps
<rqou>
how many weeks has he spent scrubbing diff pumps at this point?
<Ultrasauce>
those can shit the bed in a loss of vacuum even too cant they?
<Ultrasauce>
event*
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
not good ones :P
<pie_>
define shit in the bed
<whitequark>
you have reduced bearing life
<whitequark>
but they dont crash unless theyre shit
<rqou>
where do the stories of aglient exploding turbo pumps come from?
<pie_>
i was taught turbos fail catastrophically?
<whitequark>
if it does crash it's spectacular
<whitequark>
but just losing vacuum doesnt cause it to crash
<whitequark>
again, not on good ones
<pie_>
huh.
<whitequark>
if you drop something into the rotor then yeah
<whitequark>
or if the bearing cracks
<pie_>
guss i should tell my teacher the world may have progressed
<whitequark>
yep
<balrog>
while with a diffusion pump you can't lose vacuum?
<whitequark>
and these are early 90s pumps
<whitequark>
balrog: with most oils
<pie_>
sure you can but worst case you burn the oil
<whitequark>
there are oils that dont burn in air
<whitequark>
but theyre very expensive
<pie_>
um
<pie_>
crack the oil. whatsitcalled
<whitequark>
it carbonizes.
<pie_>
but exploding turbos? :( wall thickness not enough to catch any flying blades?
<whitequark>
it generally is
<whitequark>
I have not seen any turbos with blades penetrating the case
<pie_>
then again i suppose catastrophic vacuum loss probably has a punch, but i mean, one does not simply put a big hole in a vacuum system so ???
<whitequark>
however, the conservation of angular momentum means that the turbo gets off its mount and wrecks EVERYTHING in vicinity
<whitequark>
unless its mounted really well
<pie_>
hm i guess you have a point
<whitequark>
you have to bolt it the hell down
<pie_>
note to self, mount things well
<pie_>
hoe much mass does a turbo fan have
<whitequark>
not that much
<whitequark>
but it spins at 50-100krpm
<rqou>
you mean don't operate a turbo standalone on a desk? :P
<whitequark>
rqou: well i did that
<rqou>
there's a youtube video of someone doing that for testing
<zkms>
do they do blade-off testing on those thingies
<pie_>
poke it with a stick \o/
<rqou>
but they only spun it up to a very small percentage of max speed before shutting it off
<whitequark>
pie_: give me like $1k and sure
<pie_>
what turbos only cost 1k?
<whitequark>
well no
<awygle>
the turbos in some engine dad worked on ran for like 5m and had a service life of 15m.
<whitequark>
mine cost all under $500
<whitequark>
but thats because im good at ebay
<awygle>
Or something like that. But I guess if it only runs once and then crashes into the Atlantic...
<rqou>
how do you have so much money to chance on ebay?
<pie_>
shes an E N G I N E E R
<pie_>
with a J O B
<q3k>
what's a job
<rqou>
and unlike azonenberg without a spouse and house? :P
<pie_>
q3k, a what?
<q3k>
a JERB
<whitequark>
rqou: its not that much money
bitd has joined ##openfpga
<pie_>
^
<pie_>
see
<whitequark>
i spent more on a scope i think
<pie_>
xD ;p
<whitequark>
than on two of my turbos
<rqou>
what if you end up with duds?
<whitequark>
such is life?
<whitequark>
but they all spun
<Ultrasauce>
ebay is reasonably ok at consumer protection also
<whitequark>
and this is edwards
<pie_>
dank spins
<whitequark>
Ultrasauce: no the turbos are all sold as is
<rqou>
is edwards particularly better?
<whitequark>
rqou: you can disassemble any edwards turbo with regular tools
<whitequark>
and they do not have a sealed bearing
<rqou>
that's not what the manual says
<whitequark>
so, you can clean it and give it an oil change with just a pair of hex wrenches
<whitequark>
i don't give a fuck what manual says
<rqou>
lol ok
<rqou>
what about other vendors?
<whitequark>
i dont remember offhand which ones suck the most
<whitequark>
but edwards is definitely the most serviceable
<rqou>
you mean, don't suck? :P
<zkms>
"oil change with just a pair of hex wrenches" god that's probably the easiest oil change on any sort of mechanical device i know of
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<rqou>
whitequark: so the edwards pumps on ebay that say "bad, doesn't spin freely"... what's wrong with them usually?
<whitequark>
they crashed
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<rqou>
so are they salvagable?
<whitequark>
if you're lucky, the blades are fine and the bearing just welded itself shut
<q3k>
zkms: my favourite was a manual for a typewriter on oiling it: first, you put the entire thing in a bath of solvent, then you put the entire thing in a path of oil
<q3k>
s,typewriter,teletype,
<whitequark>
if you're not, you need to reassemble the rotro
<whitequark>
*rotor
<whitequark>
for that, you need a balancing stand
<whitequark>
on edwards you can actually remove the stator blades without disassembling the rotor
<pie_>
so how did you get all this xp with pumps anyway
<whitequark>
i did that when cleaning it
<whitequark>
rqou: generally if a pump doesnt spin freely
<whitequark>
its for parts
<rqou>
and the ones that say "lol, lab surplus idk if works"?
<whitequark>
you could possibly get a bearing out of it or something
<whitequark>
lab surplus is usually ok but you should just demand them to say if it spins
<whitequark>
if it spins and it's edwards chances are it will function to some degre
<whitequark>
*degree
<rqou>
how do labs manage to regularly crash these expensive devices?
<whitequark>
like the only two things that could happen at that point are
<whitequark>
a) it has a leak
<whitequark>
b) the motor is burned out
<whitequark>
(b) is very rare.
<whitequark>
leaks can be found and plugged.
<whitequark>
rqou: bearings have a finite life
<whitequark>
there is no real indication of how good the bearing feels
<whitequark>
it's ceramic
<rqou>
can you actually get replacement bearings? the manuals say to send it back to the factory
<whitequark>
once it cracks, tell the pump goodbye
<whitequark>
sure
<whitequark>
you get another pump
<whitequark>
from ebay
<whitequark>
then replace the bearing
<rqou>
lol
<rqou>
but there's no way to get a new bearing?
<whitequark>
on edwards, again, you can replace the bearing with just common hand tools
<zkms>
wait i thought they used magnetic bearings
<q3k>
whitequark: are they that specialized/expensive?
<sorear>
Somehow I got the idea most turbos were magnetic
<whitequark>
zkms: edwards has a bottom ceramic bearing and a top magnetic bearing
<zkms>
ah
<whitequark>
you cannot use two passive magnetic bearings because of the hairy ball theorem
<whitequark>
and active maglev bearings are complex and annoying
<zkms>
what about active magnetic bearings
<whitequark>
i do not want to use a turbo with active maglev bearings
<q3k>
heh
<whitequark>
too fragile
<rqou>
fragile?
<whitequark>
q3k: the bearings are custom designed for every pump model
<whitequark>
rqou: power cut = crash
<q3k>
whitequark: makes sense.
<rqou>
hmm
<whitequark>
or rather, it's not *definitely* going to crash, some of them may salvage the rotational energy of the rotor to power the bearing
<pie_>
i need to rememebr to put a UPS on my $expensive $vacuum $system
<whitequark>
but I sure as hell wouldn't rely on that
<zkms>
i know some chillers do exactly that
<whitequark>
chillers?
<whitequark>
zkms: edwards also has a top safety bearing
<whitequark>
that it parks the rotor on when it's not spinning
<zkms>
the HVAC compressor thingies that generate chilled water
<whitequark>
oh and everything I said applies to EXT series
<rqou>
ugh my throat is still super f*cking painful
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark, rqou: lol well as a volunteer responder i kinda have to be more prepared
<Bike>
export control list doubles as a parts list, very convenient.
<zkms>
fun list of wholesome electromechanical projects
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: do you keep throat lozenges around?
<whitequark>
amazing
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: no
<rqou>
well, that doesn't exactly help me right now :P
<azonenberg_work>
I generally focus on things that can lead to loss of life/limb
<rqou>
i guess i'll go to the drugstore and poke around
<rqou>
also, i'm actually going to go see the doctor tomorrow
<rqou>
hopefully without ending up with a "eh, just sleep it off"
<pie_>
protect rqou from temporary insanity
<pie_>
and its consequences
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: The oral meds I stock are 200mg ibuprofen, 500mg acetaminophen, 325 mg aspirin, 25 mg diphenhydramine, 25 mg meclizine, and 2 mg lopimeride
<reportingsjr>
huh, that seems very similar to my medicine cabinet
<rqou>
my medicine cabinet mostly contains bandaids :P
<reportingsjr>
minus the meclizine and add melatonin
<rqou>
i don't even have the "actually an antibiotic, unlike neosporin" thing that azonenberg_work told me to get
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: Then benzalkonium chloride 0.13% and lidocaine 2% topical
<azonenberg_work>
BZK is *not* an antibiotic
<azonenberg_work>
its an antiseptic
<reportingsjr>
I use bactine
<reportingsjr>
which is.. benzalkonium chloride and lidocaine
<azonenberg_work>
reportingsjr: thats either BZK or a very similar quaternary ammonium compound like benzethonium chloride
<reportingsjr>
haha
<azonenberg_work>
Yep
<rqou>
i assume you don't keep lidocaine in a ziplog baggie like nilered? :P
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: no its 2% lidocaine in ethanol topical wipes
<azonenberg_work>
For pain relief of bee stings etc
<rqou>
btw you have seen that video right?
<reportingsjr>
I mentioned to an ER doctor that I use bactine and she kinda stopped and went, "Huh, that's oldschool"
<azonenberg_work>
Yes
<azonenberg_work>
The main skin antiseptics i know of are IPA and ethanol (useful for injection prep but not for broken skin)
<rqou>
where nilered extracted lidocaine from "brand-new, never-before-used" personal lubricant :P
<reportingsjr>
IPA isn't a great antiseptic
<whitequark>
^
<whitequark>
it's quite amusing actually
<azonenberg_work>
Chlorhexidine (common, but can cause issues if used near the ear)
<reportingsjr>
azonenberg_work: How about Iodine..
<whitequark>
you have to dilute it with water for it to start working better
<azonenberg_work>
Povidone iodine (causes issues with people who have shellfish allergies, and stains things)
<reportingsjr>
that is a good antiseptic and fairly common
<whitequark>
i.e. absolute IPA is a worse antiseptic than 70% IPA
<azonenberg_work>
and BZK
* genii
just liberally applies iodine everywhere
<azonenberg_work>
Which is used in a very low concentration, doesnt stain things, there's no known allergies/sensitivities to it (or if they are its super rare)
<whitequark>
BZK is great
<azonenberg_work>
It's left behind to provide some residual germicidal effects, unlike alcohols which evaporate and dont do anything after
<azonenberg_work>
So it's my first line antiseptic for treating minor abrasions, cuts, etc
<rqou>
btw is 2% lidocaine legal everywhere? (including some more-insane-than-the-US countries?)
<azonenberg_work>
Dont know, never tried
<azonenberg_work>
You can actually get 20% lidocaine OTC
<azonenberg_work>
in a gel meant for teething pain relief
<rqou>
wait you can?
<pie_>
if im ever in trouble i want azonenberg_work to save me
<reportingsjr>
20%?? for /what/?
<azonenberg_work>
sorry
<rqou>
how come nilered had to use personal lubricant?
<azonenberg_work>
That stuff is strong, my dentist uses it before giving injections and the whole area gets pretty numb
<reportingsjr>
I had to get some stitches in my hand last summer and they injected 10% lidocaine
<azonenberg_work>
its by far the most powerful topical anesthetic i am aware of
<azonenberg_work>
OTC that is
<azonenberg_work>
But i dont keep it on hand
<sorear>
azonenberg_work: typo for loperamide?
<azonenberg_work>
sorear: oops
<reportingsjr>
sorear: yes
<azonenberg_work>
anyway, BZK wipes are great for minor stuff but for a deeper or larger wound i prefer using normal saline under pressure
<sorear>
Edit distance of INNs is way too low anyway
<azonenberg_work>
For home / first aid station use i use spray cans of sterile 0.9% saline, you can get ones that squirt out in a pretty strong jet (not a mist)
<azonenberg_work>
For field use when i care more about weight and volume, i use a dental irrigation syringe plus a 100cc plastic jar of normal saline
<azonenberg_work>
and draw it up into the syringe by hand