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<azonenberg_work>
rqou: sooo it looks like TFF counters take many forms that are tricky to recognize :p
<azonenberg_work>
My initial version will only work for power-of-two counts
<azonenberg_work>
I'll generalize it later
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<openfpga-github>
[yosys] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/v5zOQ
<openfpga-github>
yosys/master f167152 Andrew Zonenberg: Fixed typo in comment. Fixed bug where extract_counter would create up counters when it meant to create down counters.
<openfpga-github>
yosys/master ea75173 Andrew Zonenberg: Initial recover_tff_counters implementation. Far from all-inclusive but works for power-of-two counts.
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* azonenberg_work
is excited to meet Sergei, hope he sticks around after the keynote for a chat
<rqou>
so i was arguing with my housemate about using a solver vs writing a custom backtracking analytic PAR, and his opinion was "well, SAT/SMT solvers have huge research teams behind them"
<azonenberg_work>
So, idk about for CPLD, but for FPGA you definitely want your own analytic PAR
<azonenberg_work>
not a SAT/SMT solver
<rqou>
sure
<azonenberg_work>
You dont need an optimal solution
<azonenberg_work>
you need a good enouhg one that satisfies constraints
<azonenberg_work>
And you can use some basic heuristics
<rqou>
but SMT solvers can do all of that too :P
<rqou>
because i ask for QF_LIA, you can use "less than"
<rqou>
although i haven't actually tried doing this
<azonenberg_work>
Also, i want to try to do spatial partitioning
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<azonenberg_work>
use an approximation algorithm to divide the whole chip into smaller regions, assign various gates to each one
<azonenberg_work>
Then do detail placement within each region
<azonenberg_work>
with a separate processor doing each region
<rqou>
um, a number of the FPGA analytic placers i've looked at do that
<azonenberg_work>
and moving gates from region to region as needed
<azonenberg_work>
Yeah i know
<azonenberg_work>
But can z3 do that? :p
<rqou>
maybe not
<azonenberg_work>
You could plausibly use z3 for the detail placement
<rqou>
hey, why do we have two placers?
<azonenberg_work>
I dont know, this is something that awygle was looking at
<azonenberg_work>
where?
<rqou>
why don't crossbars/CPLDs just share algorithms with FPGAs?
<azonenberg_work>
star vs grid topology is very different
<azonenberg_work>
in an FPGA, placement is much more critical
<azonenberg_work>
in a CPLD you can basically throw everything down then tweak until it's routable
<rqou>
but the data model for xbpar allows for both
<rqou>
it just won't work super well for an FPGA
<azonenberg_work>
Also the xbpar model requires the entire routing topology in ram
<azonenberg_work>
all edges, etc
<azonenberg_work>
Which is probably bad for a large FPGA
<azonenberg_work>
it'd be better to store the generic connectivity of a switch box then reference it
<rqou>
hmm, so overall you don't see the "use the giant z3 hammer" approach as worth it?
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<azonenberg_work>
No, i do not
<azonenberg_work>
z3 has its place, i love it for formal verification etc
<azonenberg_work>
But not for PAR
<rqou>
so what about writing our own analytic backtracking PAR (for CPLDs)?
<azonenberg_work>
That i would consider
<azonenberg_work>
And i think it's probably the way to go in the long term
<awygle_m>
Popping in from Logworld to say that I am still working on a parallel analytical placer for FPGAs
<azonenberg_work>
awygle_m: also FYI I'm gonna be back in town next week
<awygle_m>
I saw it existed but I am at $DAYJOB
<azonenberg_work>
If you want to meet up and chat in meatspace
<azonenberg_work>
(things keep happening, lol)
* azonenberg_work
had 2 weeks of vacation followed by 2 weeks on site with a client
<rqou>
followed by conference? :P
<azonenberg_work>
After a week of downtime to do research, yes
<azonenberg_work>
after THAT i should be home for a while
<azonenberg_work>
Fingers crossed, Q4 is starting :p
<awygle_m>
azonenberg_work: yes I would like to do that, next week may be problematic for me. Might be better to push to after conference
<azonenberg_work>
Roger
<awygle_m>
Also, the mention of meatspace combined with recent tweets has me craving a meat lovers pizza. So thanks for that :-P
<azonenberg_work>
Lol
<rqou>
too bad none of you are going to 34C3
<awygle_m>
Fly me to Germany lol
<awygle_m>
I'd love to go, just isn't in the cards this year
<azonenberg_work>
awygle_m: You should swing by my place on bainbridge once i'm back in town
<azonenberg_work>
Explore my lab and chat FPGAs
<azonenberg_work>
and have an epic whiteboard session :p
<rqou>
wait wtf
<rqou>
you should schedule a time where i can be there too
<azonenberg_work>
What's your availability look like the weekend of 9/30-10/1? Or 10/14-15, or 10/21-22, or 10/28-29
<azonenberg_work>
i most likely will be training with SAR the first weekend of every month all fall/winter but will be available otherwise on weekends
<rqou>
it's unclear
<rqou>
i can probably be a terrible student and can definitely do "dead week" in december
<rqou>
but that's very late
<azonenberg_work>
Lol
<azonenberg_work>
Which week?
<rqou>
i think it should be the week of december 11
<azonenberg_work>
Because the 22nd until probably jan 1st i am visiting family for xmas (departure date TBD)
<azonenberg_work>
We can always do a meetup then and then have a shorter session w/ just me and awygle earlier in the fall
<rqou>
sure
<azonenberg_work>
Anyone else who you think should be involved?
* azonenberg_work
tries to remember who might be able to come
<azonenberg_work>
lain and/or griffon are local but idk if they would be interested, they do FPGA stuff but don't seem to be super into tooling
<azonenberg_work>
pointfree and cyrozap would be nice to get, but i dont think they're nearby (i forget where they live)
<rqou>
oh btw, i have a plan for how to get me over to washington without me having to drive 14 hours straight (which isn't super safe)
<azonenberg_work>
Clifford would be really nice, but it'd be a major undertaking to get him over from vienna
<azonenberg_work>
Maybe we should host an open FPGA tools conference in seattle at some point :p
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<rqou>
i'll drive 10 or so hours to Vancouver WA or whatever, and you meet me in the middle with another person and drive me the rest of the way
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<rqou>
much safer than 14 hours continuous driving
<azonenberg_work>
Or you could, you know, get a hotel like a normal person?
<azonenberg_work>
:p
<rqou>
i can do that too
<rqou>
but then it takes two days
<azonenberg_work>
or... /me checks
<awygle_m>
I usually did Portland as the pause point, only 3h from there to Seattle
<awygle_m>
Also, androirc is garbage
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<azonenberg_work>
rqou: also, it looks like it's less than $150 to fly SFO -> SEA round trip
<awygle_m>
I am occupied the weekends of 9/16 and 10/6,neither of which were on your list, so I should be generally free. Also a huge chunk of January is out too, I think the week of like the 10th. I dig the idea of a meetup
<rqou>
a flight is possible if i'm not bringing a ton of crap
<azonenberg_work>
If you don't mind a screening by the Testicle Safety Administration :p
* azonenberg_work
may be willing to donate some Delta miles to cover some of the cost of bringing a starving student to the meetup
<rqou>
lol
<azonenberg_work>
looks like a round trip is 10-20k miles, i'd probably be willing to part with enough to cover at least one leg
<rqou>
it really depends on how much crap i want to bring over in that case
<azonenberg_work>
i have ~50k but will probably spend some on xmas travel
<azonenberg_work>
Yeah
<rqou>
e.g. is it a hackathon or a whiteboarding session
<azonenberg_work>
I imagined this would be primarily a planning meeting, so laptops + clothing + maybe a devkit or two
<azonenberg_work>
i mean i have plenty of lab equipment
<rqou>
ah, so no WFNA required :P
<azonenberg_work>
Lol
<azonenberg_work>
I dont have a fume hood right now anyway
<azonenberg_work>
And i figure maybe we'd do some dev work
<rqou>
just be whitequark and use a respirator plus some of that silver hvac tube stuff :P
<azonenberg_work>
But primarily it would be high level system architecture, paper readings, discussions, etc
<azonenberg_work>
setting a roadmap
<awygle_m>
I will be more useful for Dev than chemistry etc :-P
<awygle_m>
Although it would be cool
<pointfree>
azonenberg_work: I live in the SF Bay Area. afaik cyrozap lives somewhere in Texas.
<rqou>
awygle_m: no ee143 for you? :P
<azonenberg_work>
ooh
<azonenberg_work>
pointfree: if you're bay area
<azonenberg_work>
maybe you and rqou could carpool and switch off driving?
<rqou>
carpool we me?
<rqou>
*with
<azonenberg_work>
That would get both of you out here with no worries about sleep deprivation and less expensive than flying both of you
<rqou>
yeah
<pointfree>
What is this meetup. I missed the conversation.
<azonenberg_work>
pointfree: basically planning session for future work, higher level system architecture, expanding to bigger FPGAs, PAR algorithms, possibly switching xbpar from annealing to analytic placement
<awygle_m>
Agh, okay back to work, I am totally in for this, and I could probably kick in some cash if somebody needed a hand with travel. I'll read the logs tonight and catch up on whatever I miss
<whitequark>
rqou: fume hood to do what
<azonenberg_work>
whiteboarding session plus possibly hackathon depending on available time
<whitequark>
azonenberg_work: oh btw I'll be in bay area soon
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: oh? when
<azonenberg_work>
any chance you could swing up north or is that too far out of your way?
<rqou>
meetup?
<whitequark>
15th or so
<whitequark>
arrive
<azonenberg_work>
of this month?
<whitequark>
ye
<whitequark>
i don't plan things month in advance lol
<azonenberg_work>
How long are you staying?
<whitequark>
dunno a month maybe
<azonenberg_work>
the 10-16 i am busy and the 17-23 i will be in the hague
<rqou>
lol meanwhile azonenberg_work and i have "stuff" planned out to may or so :P
<whitequark>
i'll be staying with someone
<azonenberg_work>
Didn't even have to commit any war crimes to get a free trip :p
<whitequark>
i don't know if we'll become good roommates
<whitequark>
if yes then month if no then less
<azonenberg_work>
Well, if you can arrange to come up north you're welcome to visit
<azonenberg_work>
If not, i may or may not be able to come down in october
<whitequark>
yeah I know a few people in seattle
<whitequark>
quite a few actually
<rqou>
be roommates with me in my cluserf*ck of an apartment, what could go wrong? :P
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: well in that case maybe you should come up north at some point during your expedition
<rqou>
we have a "smart energy grid" :P :P
<whitequark>
rqou: oh sweet i have a third emergency option now
<azonenberg_work>
We can have a get-together with griffon and lain, awygle, me, you
<pointfree>
azonenberg_work: so this meetup would be in Washington state?
<azonenberg_work>
either just a BBQ or a full greenpak dev hackathon
<azonenberg_work>
or anything in between
<rqou>
ok, i'm going to really have to find a weekend to be a terrible student and go up to washington for a weekend
<azonenberg_work>
pointfree: Yes, i work in seattle and live on an island off the coast (easily accessible by ferry from downtown seattle)
<whitequark>
i know at least three people in seattle i'd like to see, not counting azonenberg_work
<azonenberg_work>
Well, in that case when i get back from Den Haag let's discuss and try to find a weekend that works for most of us?
<azonenberg_work>
I have two couches and a futon that are available as needed if folks need somewhere to stay
<azonenberg_work>
well ok one L-shaped couch and a futon, but you can sleep two on it
<whitequark>
actually make that four people
<whitequark>
why does everyone i know live in the us >_>