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<jrc>
These phones seem really expensive so... I want one, but I can't preorder. Because the parts are rare does that mean I'll never be able to get one, once the first run is sold out?
<Oksana>
jrc: Take a look at voucher marketplace; maybe, it will decrease the price a little (by 100-200- EUR, depending on voucher). http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95595 Also, you may consider a fundraiser, especially if you are a developer ;-)
<jrc>
Oksana: thanks :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically yes, that's the reasoning
<jrc>
It's amazing to me that a sandboxed baseband is an innovative concept for a niche project instead of the standard
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the basic separation isn't that innovative, it even been almost implemented in N900, and of course in GTA01/2 and 04. But our tight monitoring is probably absolutely innovative
<jrc>
Has anyone to your guys knowledge ever investigated whether the baseband processor in iPhones has access to main memory? I've researched it briefly but didn't turn up anything
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry don't know
<jrc>
The only research I found said something to the effect of "it's possible"
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, probably
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik apple uses their own proprietary chips for application processor. I don't know what else they built by themselves
<jrc>
Ideally someone could develop totally open baseband software and hardware, but my understanding is FCC certification stands in the way of that, I guess because it's too expensive, or even if you had the money they wouldn't allow it if users could change it
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the link
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, you can't get FCC cert
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: is it just a matter of money? Or even if you could pay for the tests, they would say it threatens the stability of the infrastructure for users to be able to change it easily?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, it's mandatory that the certified firmware gets not changed
<DocScrutinizer05>
just like nowadays it must be impossible to change IMEI
<jrc>
I'm not sure what to think about that. On one hand it is critical infrastructure and I understand the need to keep it stable, on the other hand, the cellular network should be more in the hands of the people
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, I think cellular technology and atomic power plants should _not_ be in the hands of arbitrary people ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they should be completely open though for people to review those technologies
<Humpelstilzchen>
agreed, atomic power plants belong to my hands only
<jrc>
:P
<DocScrutinizer05>
for what happens when you get less authorities / regulations in such stuff, see the mess that is USA cellular market
<jrc>
I have some knowledge of voip, enough to setup asterisk, but I have had a heck of a time trying to unravel LTE/3GPP and how all these cellular protocols work. I'm not clear on why it doesn't all just use SIP if they're going all-digital
<DocScrutinizer05>
err LTE basically does ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
VoLTE
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is basicall VoIP
<jrc>
oh I see
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is SIP, more or less
<jrc>
I was going to try to setup this http://www.openairinterface.org/ "An Open LTE Network in a PC !" I figure if I can get that to actually carry a call I'd be most of the way to understanding how it works
<DocScrutinizer05>
LTE separates the services (voice calls, internet access, ...) form the data carrier which transports all data OTA in IP
<DocScrutinizer05>
the most funny bit is accounting and billing in all that
<jrc>
oh yeah, I can see that's where it would be more complex than an out of the box SIP client/server
<DocScrutinizer05>
the SIP service automatically charges customer via carrier as proxy
<DocScrutinizer05>
add in roaming and handover, and you have a really funny scenario of intricate cases
<jrc>
oh yeah I see
<jrc>
well this is typical of me, it's happened in the past where I look at an existing implementation of some software and think, what is all this cruft?? they've overcomplicated it! so I implement myself and end up in the same place
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the reason why still today most LTE networks do voice calls by fallback to 3G CS
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: for the billing?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the automatic accounting/auth/etc yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
after all the carriers don't have interest to allow competitors offering services to _their_ LTE customers
<jrc>
I'm not clear on why this "IMS" concept, why make a distinction between "media" and data traffic in general?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's sort of similar situation to when Telekom had to allow other DSL providers on their own copper last mile
<DocScrutinizer05>
first they didn't help at all, then they asked for insane fees to use the holy Telekom copper wires, then the Netzwerkagentur authority kicked their ass and meanwhile 10 years gone by and it works until you want to change to another DSL provider
<DocScrutinizer05>
in which case you still can end with no internet at all for up to 18 months
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: I don't live there but it sounds like they figured out a good solution to that in england, some kind of regulated mandatory last mile sharing
<DocScrutinizer05>
we got same here in Germany
<jrc>
something something bundling, I forget the term
<DocScrutinizer05>
as mentioned, it works . *usually*
<jrc>
yeah, having a law is one thing, having it affect in reality is anothr when you have behemoth telcos that can tie enforcement up in court forever
<DocScrutinizer05>
but the cases where it fails epically (like moving to another town, or changing DSL provider) may happen on LTE not every other year but every other hour
<DocScrutinizer05>
and needs to get handled all automatically, without a dude in backoffice fixing the glitches
<DocScrutinizer05>
and down times are a nogo, no 18 months, not even 18s
<jrc>
inter-carrier links are always fraught with politics and money, that's certainly been the case with the layer 3 backbone providers
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's exactly the problem with VoLTE
<jrc>
I'm kind of hoping we can get free municipal wifi everywhere in the next 50 years and we can all use regular SIP clients and skip the celluar infrastructure altogether, but I guess it will never really go away because of all the remote areas
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: I suspected some either political or financial issues were holding up LTE because the rollout has been really slow
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the true issues are both, in a way. "political" as in corporate politics, and financial as in 'roaming' agreements made automatic
<DocScrutinizer05>
looks terribly simplified ;-P
<jrc>
haha great
<DocScrutinizer05>
but yeah, that's what we're facing here, a really ambitioned and complex ratsnest
<DocScrutinizer05>
I worked for a LTE chip manufacturer and I know the amount of manpower that's needed to get the hardware and firmware working
<jrc>
It looks like there are so many points of failure, I can't imagine what it costs to make all this stuff: 1) Scale 2) redundant
<DocScrutinizer05>
when I say 1000 manyears I'm probably underestimating
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly more like 10000
<DocScrutinizer05>
just for one LTE chipset (here NovaThor/Thorium)
<jrc>
Yikes
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, much of the firmware gets "re-used" from formed developments (here Radium chipset)
<DocScrutinizer05>
former*
<jrc>
My hopes are dashed that someone could produce an open hardware design with open firmware, a way to get the hardware fabricated cheaply, and money raised for FCC certification
<DocScrutinizer05>
forget it
<DocScrutinizer05>
won't happen, not even for GSM
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is ridiculously simple compared to LTE
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could as well hope for somebody growing green ecological i7 CPUs on his acres
<jrc>
lol
<jrc>
it would be nice to at least have open source for the firmware and open hardware design so people could verify what their phone is doing and security patches could be submited
<jrc>
but I don't expect that to happen
<jrc>
neo900's approach is really the best
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's as good as we could do, with all our effort and focus on exactly this FOSS topic
<DocScrutinizer05>
if there had been any better option we for sure had chosen it
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 isn't ROI-optimized, see pricetag
<jrc>
everyone I tell about neo900 goes "omg i want one!!! ... oh I can't afford it :( "
<DocScrutinizer05>
if we had optimized for return of investment we had done something like Jolla or arbitrary Galaxy phone
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: what did they do differently?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, sorry for the pricetag, that's what you get for optimizing security and building really low batches
<DocScrutinizer05>
who? the jolla/RIM/android folks?
<jrc>
oh I thought jolla was a secure phone project nvm
<DocScrutinizer05>
they use contemporary vulnerable phone-on-a-chip chipsets
<jrc>
I hadnt heard of it
<jrc>
I've read about blackphone entering this space but if memory serves they don't sandbox the baseband
<DocScrutinizer05>
where we use a 100EUR modem module *plus* an application processor, they use a snapdragon all-in-one chipset for 40 bucks
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, blackphone is fundamentally flawed on hw level
<jrc>
DocScrutinizer05: is there any interest within the project to seek out VC $$ ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe. Eventually
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now my ideas are more along kickstarter campaign for STEP2 (the Neo900 successor device)
<jrc>
ooooo that sounds exciting!
<DocScrutinizer05>
will take 2 years minimum until we're there
<jrc>
aw
<DocScrutinizer05>
first we need to demonstrate we can pull off and there's actually a (however niche) market, with Neo900
<jrc>
To me security is a matter of correctness, I don't see Neo900 as above and beyond, rather I see my iPhone as flawed, which is a shame for a device that I rely on
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think Apple does its best to make secure devices, where they don't take own company's vulnerabilities into account
<DocScrutinizer05>
a common mistake in industry
<DocScrutinizer05>
common remedy: security by obscurity
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno how much life is still in all this
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway feel free to /join #qi-hardware
<jrc>
how much life is in the partnership?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, our "boots on the ground" as one called it, in Shenzen/China, is a contact we found in qi-hardware, a really awesome and kind guy
<DocScrutinizer05>
who is providing the N900 we'll gonna source now
<DocScrutinizer05>
not bad, but questionable usability
<jrc>
yep, if I can't get the $ together for neo900 maybe ill build one, it has horrible battery life, but at least ill have a phone with an ethernet port! lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
the most bottom level concept is similar to Neo900: toss together a $arbitrary-SoC-board-likeRPi/BB-xM and a $modem-module
<jrc>
by the time you put a mic, speaker, useful battery, and case on it that thing would be huge
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the point
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it's not certified unlike Neo900
<jrc>
the modem is certified, does the phone as a whole have to be certified?
<DocScrutinizer05>
our device comnes with official cert that makes usage legal worldwide
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<jrc>
oh I didn't realize that!! I thought only the GSM module had to be certified
<DocScrutinizer05>
relaxed cert since modem is type-approved and certed already
<DocScrutinizer05>
you still need SAR and EMI
<jrc>
so it would be illegal in the US to use that raspberry pi phone?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I don't think so
<jrc>
oh ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
err ILlgal, yes
<jrc>
oh :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno _how_ illegal
<DocScrutinizer05>
FCC rules in USA are again very weird
<jrc>
maybe less illegal than using osmocombb
<DocScrutinizer05>
so it may be legal for DIY but illegal to sell
<DocScrutinizer05>
osmocombb is very interesting if it's illegal at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
in USA I'm not sure it's illegal
<jrc>
I think I read that it's illegal outside of a lab, like to connect to an actual tower, because the software isn't certified
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then, that might depend on your *exact* current location, and if the sheriff of left or rightside district is in charge
<jrc>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's the baseline rule with which you're safe
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly, I have no clue about USA rules and regulations, as long as they are not related to what I do
<jrc>
I'm sure if you did something funny with it, like modify it to do something different with the authentication, etc you'd be in huge trouble
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
definitely
<DocScrutinizer05>
they will find something they can throw at you: terrorism, aircraft tampering, espionage, whatever
<jrc>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
doesn't matter, authorities can do whatever they like
<jrc>
however I think if I setup, for example, an OpenBTS base station you're free to do whatever you like
<DocScrutinizer05>
in Germany it's a tad more "civil" but also more strictly regulated that any such uncertified device is illegal
<jrc>
as long as you're not causing interference
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, since you're operating an illegal transmitter
<jrc>
well I read it's ok as long as it's super low power and wouldn't cause anyone outside of your private property to connect to it
<DocScrutinizer05>
even in USA not *all* random transmitters are legalized
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the "FM-transmitter for own car stereo" case
<jrc>
oh yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
in USA a 1mW or somesuch is allowed, in Germany a 5 nanoWatt
<DocScrutinizer05>
(I made up the numbers)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in France WLAN may not operate with 100mW outdoors, only 10mW
<DocScrutinizer05>
in USA directional antennas are allowed afaik, not in Europe though
<DocScrutinizer05>
RF is _very_ funny topic
<jrc>
yeah, it's like the govt knows they don't want people causing interference but they dont agree how to accomplish that
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
they try to adapt to local situation which in USA is: way more empty unpopulated areas
<DocScrutinizer05>
etc
<jrc>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus regulations differ from country to country
<jrc>
well DocScrutinizer05 I have to go to sleep but it was really good talking with you
<DocScrutinizer05>
yw :-) n8
<jrc>
I wish you all the luck in the world with this project, I think it's really important
<DocScrutinizer05>
wNYC?
<DocScrutinizer05>
err -w
<jrc>
I'm in NYC yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for the wishes :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
visit us again!
<jrc>
you're welcome, and I will!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
on topic: I said it before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it - we get guarantee for a yield of 95% on Neo900 boards from our EMS
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the pandora disaster as I recall it can't happen to us
<DocScrutinizer05>
after our final prototype/PV got tested OK, we will produce 95%+ of also working and OK series devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what I call awesome business partners
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<vizzy>
wow
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: weren't the 95% about some simpler project ? dunno if they'd also guarantee 95% for neo900, which is quite complex. of course, by industry standards, 95% is poor, so it may be value they apply universally
<DocScrutinizer05>
err nope, not aiui
<wpwrak>
ok. well, 95% sounds very reasonable in any case. that's also what i used in the estimate, without flinching ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just nice we have a guarantee
<DocScrutinizer05>
would be hard to find an insurance
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<wpwrak>
not that the guarantee would be worth all that much, in practical terms. but at least they have an extra motivation to try to do a proper job
<DocScrutinizer05>
err what?
<DocScrutinizer05>
why would a guarantee not be worth it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when they don't deliver, they can't ask for payment
<DocScrutinizer05>
simple as that
<wpwrak>
i'd expect them to be sufficiently careful with or without guarantee :)
<wpwrak>
so <95% would mean some series process problem. in which case we'd be screwed anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
why we?
<wpwrak>
because we wouldn't be able to produce the thing :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
???
<DocScrutinizer05>
you completely lost me
<wpwrak>
but since nobody wants to go to that point anyway, there shouldn't be a problem
<wpwrak>
i'm just saying that the guarantee isn't really something that ought to matter in practice
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I say for pandora it did
<wpwrak>
it's more a "feel good" item
<DocScrutinizer05>
they had none and it almost kiled them
<wpwrak>
oh, but they were working with a company that was rather incompetent
<DocScrutinizer05>
so?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ours is so competent that they dare to give a warranty
<wpwrak>
getting some money back (possibly after a lot of fighting) wouldn't have solved the problem that they couldn't produce the thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't need to get money back, we pay after production finished
<wpwrak>
second, we're directly going to a company that we have every reason to expect to be on top of all this
<wpwrak>
so if THEY should fail, that would be very bad
<bencoh>
18:42 <+DocScrutinizer05> we don't need to get money back, we pay after production finished
<bencoh>
that's the interesting part
<wpwrak>
well, a guarantee can be interpreted as an expression of confidence
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm feeling tired of this
<wpwrak>
so that's good. if you already know you'll screw up, you wouldn't give such guarantees.
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
look, we order for example 500 biooard. They will deliver 500 tested working boards, and they can't charge us more than 550
<DocScrutinizer05>
boards*
<DocScrutinizer05>
err actually 525
<wpwrak>
i wonder how they actually calculate it. probably: cost(N) + 5% + cost(estimated_number_of_test_runs)
<wpwrak>
i.e., they will probably have a number of trial runs that aren't part of the 95%. they basically need to tune the process until they reach a certain number of "good" boards. once they're there, they can run a partial batch. then tune more, if necessary.
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course they have test runs: our prototypes/PV
<wpwrak>
so yes, the 550 don't look too far off. they'll want some error margin, too.
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, 95% are actually ~525
<wpwrak>
yes, these will help. plus they'll have pyra
<DocScrutinizer05>
they had pandora
<DocScrutinizer05>
and GTA04
<wpwrak>
(550) i mean 500 + 5% + ~25 for tuning the process
<wpwrak>
maybe a bit less than 25
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, they don't do any tuning on our cost
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's their business
<wpwrak>
of course they do :) it's just part of the package
<DocScrutinizer05>
when they do PV runs, then I gather the 95% are incl those as well
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<wpwrak>
that would be unusual. but i mean they'll give us a price for the whole things - sourcing, setup, PCBs, SMT, and so on. for N units.
<wpwrak>
there's proabably not an overly detailed cost breakdown in there
<DocScrutinizer05>
so?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
the 95% is on that whole package
<wpwrak>
and the per unit figure would change if we changed the number of units
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly what are we discussing?
<wpwrak>
yes, so they'll have the tuning as part of the fixed cost. then they have the process that allows them to guarantee >=95% for anything that follows
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't care how they do that
<wpwrak>
just clarifying how such costs are composed
<DocScrutinizer05>
is that relevant to us?
<wpwrak>
yes, at the end of they day it's just EUR X for the package. how they calculate this internally and how many boards they actually make, is their problem.
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<wpwrak>
well, almost. for parts we provide, we may see some of that.
<wpwrak>
so it would be good to clarify how much excess parts they expect to need
<DocScrutinizer05>
first off we need to check which parts we need to provide at all
<wpwrak>
(if it's "easy" parts, they could of course just omit them until the production run. so we wouldn't have to worry about that.)
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly the 1GB
<wpwrak>
and the fancy connector :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh
<wpwrak>
well, we should have plenty of these
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
and option for more of them
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<wpwrak>
kewl. until you find a source, the stuff is pure unobtainium. once you have found something, infinite quantities are easy ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep :-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless it's N900s
<DocScrutinizer05>
afk, bbl
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<Oksana>
(by the time you put a mic, speaker, useful battery, and case on it that thing would be huge) Mic and speaker: plug in a headset, maybe? Useful battery: hmm, maybe connect a wind-up-by-hand charger to it? (you still need SAR and EMI) Something about strength of electromagnetic field emitted by the antenna of the cellular phone?
<DocScrutinizer05>
SAR is extremely silly since the phones by design shouldn't reach any relevant level there. However it's mandatory
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly you couldn't change much in SAR even when you would want to. There's no tuning of SAR, except by changing antenna geometry and location in relation to user's head
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<DocScrutinizer05>
EMI are unwanted RF radiations from the device
<Oksana>
Interesting... For users who are concerned with the adequacy of this standard or who otherwise wish to further reduce their exposure, the most effective means to reduce exposure are to hold the cell phone away from the head or body and to use a speakerphone or hands-free accessory. These measures will generally have much more impact on RF energy absorption than the small difference in SAR...
<Oksana>
...between individual cell phones, which, in any event, is an unreliable comparison of RF exposure to consumers, given the variables of individual use.
<Oksana>
Especially in the light of wearable technology, cellular wrist watches, and such...