<Oksana>
What about Chaos Communication Congress ? In December?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I love that too, but usually try to avoid it for mere health reasons: winter, closed and crowded rooms
<DocScrutinizer05>
and who knows, maybe biotech hackers ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
last I visited gave a terrible flu
<DocScrutinizer05>
but that's prolly just me
<Oksana>
Like, is it that difficult to make glasses which: 1) are transparent; 2) include high-resolution electronic image for both eyes (see-through, see 1); 3) do not have anything WiFi, only wires for video and power. Battery is optional, audio is optional (let audiophiles choose their own preferred audio-devices), camera(s) optional, light(s) optional.
<Oksana>
And no operating system. Just basic IO device.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<Oksana>
Trying to put chips-sensors-everything into glasses makes them way too bulky.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "see through" is not that simple though, you need sophisticated optics and projectors to have a sort of "HUD"
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically the glasses themselves act only as a semi-transparent mirror to reflect the focused light beams from pojector into your eye's lens
<Oksana>
Funny ;-) "many unused devices lingering in drawers, until they are eventually thrown away and end up in landfill" http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-06/uos-cmc060515.php As an alternative, the researchers propose a 'cloud-based product service system'...
<DocScrutinizer05>
LUMUS is great! >>In the simplest terms, LOE (Light-guide Optical Element) technology shatters the laws of conventional optics – that's why it's disruptive, revolutionary. Traditionally, personal displays suffer from the “size dilemma” — if you want the image to be large, the device has to be large; if you want the device to be small, the image will be small<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
what? cloud based service system?
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's that?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(LUMUS) HMMMM holograms. Dunno if they use them, but I might
<DocScrutinizer05>
a hologram of a bulky mirror&lens design might do the trick in a transparent ultrathin foil
<DocScrutinizer05>
sth along that line#
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno exactl _how_ to create the hologram but i know it could accomplish what's needed
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<DocScrutinizer05>
HAH, knew it it's not a genuine idea of mine
<Oksana>
On top of that, if you make a hologram of a magnifying glass, the holographic version will magnify the other objects in the hologram, just like a real one. <- Can a hologram of a magnifying glass magnify an object which is not in the hologram?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, it's only about the basics
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes it can
<Oksana>
Nay, I am mish-mashing specular optics with holograms, and everything in one basket.
* Oksana
does not recall ever seeing a hologram ever acting instead of mirror&lens design, so looking it up
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe not a hologram of a magnifying glass. Dunno what you would need to create the hologram, but you could in theory simply _calculate_ it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know there are holographic lenses
<Oksana>
Yes ;-) How thick would it need to be?
<DocScrutinizer05>
a holographic lens? as thick as any other hologram
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly a foild, no more than 0.5mm thick
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>One use of a holographic optical element is in thin-profile combiner lenses for optical head-mounted displays.<< knew it it's not my genuine idea ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
also LUMUS uses LOE (Lightguide Optical Elements), not HUE
<DocScrutinizer05>
HOE*
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm LUMUS has a quite annoying policy, only selling to "major companies"
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actively fostering the subsidy concept like in cellphones
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy, nothing new at all. Same crap every chip manuf does nowadays
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<user____>
Hi all!
<user____>
Is Anyone here?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no ;-)
<user____>
Hey!
<user____>
Are you Mr.Krzyszkowiak?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I'm Joerg, Sebastian would be dos1
<user____>
I see.
<user____>
I love the idea of you project.
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, maybe I can help you too?
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-) thanks!
<user____>
I'm just interested why exactly is it so expensive?
<user____>
I'm just an average consumer.
<user____>
And I'm dying for an open phone that isn't shit.
<user____>
And Neo900 looks like my only option.
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's mainly due to the fact we're building a small batch of devices and need to source expensive chips/modules
<user____>
But 1150 EUR is crazy money.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I know. alas we can't help it
<user____>
Have you guys tried outsourcing to China?
<DocScrutinizer05>
See, our modem module alone costs ~100 bucks
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't want to outsource to China, since that will result in abysmal quality when we don't also move to location of production to do micromanagement
<user____>
That's simply not true.
<user____>
The end quality of the product depends only on your specifications.
<user____>
China's factories are just as good as European factories, but magnitudes cheaper.
<DocScrutinizer05>
also this would create conflicts with out ethical policies we got in the project, and it still wouldn't help for the 100 bucks for modem module
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/out/our/
<DocScrutinizer05>
in fact our production line is only a minor fraction of the device's total cost
<user____>
Well, forgive if I seem harsh, but it seems that you guys haven't really researched the Chinese option.
<DocScrutinizer05>
we did
<Wizzup>
user____: afaiu you're too late to make major changes at this point - most things are set in stone
<Wizzup>
by now
<DocScrutinizer05>
Wizzup: we're always open to suggestions and criticism
<Wizzup>
yes, just saying
<user____>
If business taught me anything, it's that nothing is set in stone if we can lower prices.
<Wizzup>
feel free to do independent research and find a way to make everything much cheaper, of course
<user____>
That's why I came here.
<user____>
I actually live in China and I speak fluent Chinese.
<user____>
I'm not Chinese, though.
<DocScrutinizer05>
however please realize that Openmoko (the predecessor of Neo900 UG) produced in mainland china, and I still have good contacts to some gifter hardware guys in China
<user____>
In Shenzhen?
<DocScrutinizer05>
gifted*
<DocScrutinizer05>
not directly in shenzen, but we for example will get the refurbished N900 from shenzen, yes
<user____>
OK, here's the thing.
<DocScrutinizer05>
again, production line is not the problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
sourcing is
<DocScrutinizer05>
and sourcing from Shenzen is a nightmare
<user____>
How come?
<DocScrutinizer05>
a number of reasons. starting at fake or poor quality chips, and not ending in escrow etc
<user____>
Do you have boots on the ground in Shenzhen?
<user____>
Or is it purely remote comms?
<DocScrutinizer05>
if needed, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we got a proxy there
<DocScrutinizer05>
next to shenzen
<DocScrutinizer05>
awesome guy I know for some years now
<user____>
Here's the thing, I live in Shenzhen, and I'm pretty experienced with all this stuff.
<user____>
If there's anything I can do for you guys I'd gladly do it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
great, very useful :-) I never can have enough contacts to Shenzen
<user____>
I don't need any money.
<user____>
Don't need any freebies.
<user____>
Just tell me how I can help.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)) Much appreciated! please send a mail with proper contact info to contact@neo900 org
<bencoh>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
since contact via IRC is a tad transitional
<user____>
I'd prefer Jabber with OTR, tbh.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I never became friends with jabber
<user____>
Or if we have to use email, I'd prefer it PGP'd.
<user____>
Really? I thought you guys are all paranoid like me.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure thing, go ahead. My pubkeys are on all keyservers. joerg AT openmoko.org
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm sort of paranoid, but I have arranged with also doing stuff in the public and accepting that it's visible
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<bencoh>
I think we're all insane in some way, but not necessarily paranoid ;)
<user____>
To give you an idea of how paranoid I am, I actually feel nervous just talking on here.
<user____>
Since we're all in plaintext.
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy, this is a harmless place. Though, I can't speak for Chinese people like you
<DocScrutinizer05>
Chinese residents
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I'd also feel paranoid like mad when I'd live there
<user____>
Nah, I was just as paranoid back in my home country as well.
<user____>
Even before the Snowden revelations.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
who needs Snowden, we knew all of that years before
<user____>
Exactly.
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually since 9-11 the latest
<user____>
But after Snowden I could finally say "I told you so" to all my friends.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehehe
<user____>
And force them to jabber.
<DocScrutinizer05>
better feed the TLAs with harmless stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually the more you feed them, the less they can use all those petabytes of info ... per second
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and honestly, you think jabber is 'safe'?
<user____>
Not by itself, but with the proper addons it is.
<user____>
Unless, of course, you are directly targeted.
<user____>
In which case nothing is safe.
<DocScrutinizer05>
after NSA has cracked or compromised each existing SSL key on this globe, and every cisco router anywhere in the internet?
<user____>
Yeah, even after that.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I prefer ZRTP for that, and even then I still feel paranoid. The true threat is metadata though, and there's hardly _anything_ you can do about that
<user____>
Isn't ZRTP for talking?
<bencoh>
sure you might hide what you're talking about but you'll leave some footprints about who you're talking to
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<user____>
I'm talking about chatting.
<bencoh>
(jabber/OTR)
<user____>
I do use ZRTP too.
<DocScrutinizer05>
ZRTP -> SIP(S)
<user____>
Indeed.
<DocScrutinizer05>
SIP-INFO: nice chat channel too ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
not protected by ZRTP though
<user____>
bencoh, i dont care if the NSA knows I'm talking to my friend
<user____>
what i care about is that they don't know what we're talking about
<user____>
anonimity is not my goal for most cases
<DocScrutinizer05>
the more you obviously hide content, the more focus and attention and CPU grunt they throw at you
<user____>
good
<DocScrutinizer05>
could only be mitigated if *everybody* would encrypt
<user____>
let my encryption eat up their cpu resources
<DocScrutinizer05>
that''s the spirit :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, you got my mail addr and you know there's a strong and validated PGP pubkey for it
<user____>
Yes.
<user____>
What info would you like?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, busy
<user____>
Actually, never mind.
<DocScrutinizer05>
please simply send a mail so I get your address
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Twinkle is available for Linux only (GPL license).<< what the heck?! Michel always been so determined to keep the whole thing platform independent and only using POSIX stuff, and now this?
<user____>
Perhaps he found some Windows API to be compromising?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when we discussed scripting, he outright refused dbus since it's not available on a number of platforms
<DocScrutinizer05>
which in hindsight been a pretty smart move
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: it might mean that twinkle builds are linux-only
<Wizzup>
perhaps it wastoo much to support other platforms
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe
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<user____>
DocScrutinizer05, you key is unusable for encryption.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
how's that?
<user____>
Have you recieved any encrypted messages with it lately?
<mvaenskae>
interesting; i thought public-secret pairs were bound to same expiration dates
<DocScrutinizer05>
seemingly not. It even complains "please first use toggle" when I try to "expire" the privkey
<mvaenskae>
ssb is the private key, isn't it?
<mvaenskae>
ahhh, i think i understand
<mvaenskae>
what key is used to encrypt messages and which one is used to decrypt?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the public is used to encrypt
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<mvaenskae>
the pubkey is used for encryption so if it isn't valid anymore people can't encrypt with it
<mvaenskae>
but you would still like to decrypt old messages though, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
gpg --send-key $ID fails for me, what's $ID ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, makes sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
why would privkey expire
<mvaenskae>
i am not sure why they even have such a field for the private key
<mvaenskae>
thinking about it a bit more
<mvaenskae>
$ID is the key-id belonging to you; so the 0xED7B... (if that is your key-id that is)
<DocScrutinizer05>
aah k
<mvaenskae>
it can take some time until your key is updated across all keyservers (notorious for being quite slow)
<DocScrutinizer05>
gpg: sende Schlüssel 9935520C auf den hkp-Server pgp.mit.edu
<mvaenskae>
if the expiration date has been updated it should be usable in a few i think; haven't read anything on how quick the keyids get updated
<mvaenskae>
never expiring subkey?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I really don't care. when the "envelope" expires, I guess the subkey is moot anyway
<mvaenskae>
your masterkey never expires though
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<mvaenskae>
or does it? i am confused by the multiple selfsigs
<DocScrutinizer05>
good, then I never again need to worry about that nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway I think it should still expire 2017-05-27
<bencoh>
it does
<bencoh>
sig sig3 9935520C 2015-05-27 __________ 2017-05-27 [selfsig] according to pgp.mit
<mvaenskae>
bencoh: pardon but what is a "selfsig"?
<mvaenskae>
this is a quite confusing sight as there are multiple ones even
<bencoh>
when you create a (public) key you self-sign it with your (private) key
<bencoh>
the expiration date is actually the signature expiration date afaict
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously
<bencoh>
(and "renewing" it roughly means re-self-signing it)
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least when extending it by doing a new signature
<mvaenskae>
bencoh: i would have found it much easier to read if it didn't say self-sig but the user-id :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's sort of funny to figure how the pubkey verifies itself by decrypting the signature with $self
<bencoh>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway seems to work now, no?
<DocScrutinizer05>
user____: ^^^
<DocScrutinizer05>
((<user____> So.. you're going to make a new one?)) yes, please download new key from pgp.mit.edu
<DocScrutinizer05>
(or wait 3 days until it propagated to the keyserver of your choice)
<DocScrutinizer05>
fingerprint is unchanged
<dos1>
user____: hi btw! Sebastian Krzyszkowiak here, may I ask you how did you learn about Neo900? you were looking for me at the beginning, so it made me curious :)
* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders what been the initial "problem". Some over-paranoid parameters to pgp back in 2008 that created an unusual expiring el-gamal subkey?
<user____>
DocScrutinizer05, just a second, I'll check.
<user____>
dos1, Hi! I saw your presentation on OHSW14.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<user____>
By the way, you are one of the shittiest presenters I have ever heard in my life.
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<dos1>
:D
<user____>
But I'm sure you know that already.
<bencoh>
:D
<DocScrutinizer05>
given the circumstances it was a great talk
<user____>
I couldn't figure out whether it was his English skills or his awkwardness.
<user____>
Probably a bit of both.
<dos1>
yeah, both
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly the flu and unpreparedness
<dos1>
and a bit of sickness - I was supposed to be in Munich, but couldn't go and we managed to do last minute videoconf
<user____>
No offense, by the way.
<user____>
Just being honest.
<dos1>
none taken :) I'm just an average nerd with average nerdy social skills after all :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
user____: you're wrong btw, or rather you would be when you ever had heard me. You have no chance to hear me though since I *really* know I don't want to put that threat to mankind
<user____>
I dunno.
<user____>
I've heard 7-year-olds give better presentations.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I fail even on usual phonecalls
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<mvaenskae>
DocScrutinizer05: nah, that's the phone dropping the call ;)
<dos1>
announcing official #neo900 contest: who's the biggest aspie! ;)
<user____>
DocScrutinizer05, works now.
<bencoh>
not exactly convinced that would bring new customers, but ... :))
* mvaenskae
wonders how many people use their gpg-key to sign their git-commits
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<DocScrutinizer05>
user____: thanks for pointing me at this obviously years-old lingering problem in my key
<user_>
Wasn't intentional. Nothing to thank for.
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<Pali>
mvaenskae: only some last git version support signing git commit with pgp keys
<mvaenskae>
Pali: git-1.7.9 seems to have introduced it... in the beginning of 2012
<mvaenskae>
that is quite old i feel ;)
<Pali>
I have 1.7.9.5
<Pali>
and there is no support for signing commits
<mvaenskae>
ah, i assumed infection implies full systemd usage :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-06-08 Mon 17:36:06] <dos1> "sudo systemctl restart php-fpm.service" stopped it, but didn't bother to relaunch...
<bencoh>
mvaenskae: now, full usage is when you're dead sick 0:]
<DocScrutinizer05>
"admins, use systemd. It makes your life less boring"
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: you know my view on poetteries, but this one is most probably the php-fpm script fault :)
<dos1>
14.10 is systemd infected
<dos1>
bencoh: well, I'm not sure what happened there. from logs it definitely looked like systemd didn't even bother to restart the service after stopping
<Pali>
systemd :D
<user_>
DocScrutinizer05, might want to check your mail. Try to decrypt see if the new keys works properly.
<dos1>
bencoh: both the logs and the service status was just like I'd call "stop" instead of "restart"
<bencoh>
hmm ... is it that broken ? oO
<dos1>
and it happened only once
<dos1>
"sudo systemctl start php-fpm.service" was enough to bring it up
<DocScrutinizer05>
user_: yes, works, thanks
<dos1>
(this was the cause of non-working php via http on neo900.org since yesterday, if anyone wondered :P)
<bencoh>
(huhu err kofkof :])
<DocScrutinizer05>
which conveniently broke verification of new accounts
<DocScrutinizer05>
((and it happened only once)) [2015-06-08 Mon 17:39:24] <DocScrutinizer05> retry please [2015-06-08 Mon 17:39:48] <DocScrutinizer05> we need to at least know if that's a recurring pattern or a singleton [2015-06-08 Mon 17:40:03] <dos1> now worked like a charm
<user_>
DocScrutinizer05, have you guys got any jobs for me now?
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now not. Right now as of "today, this minute"
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could check if you can find N900 spare parts. Basically all but mobo is needed
<user_>
I see. I'll be standing by until you guys need me. Though I may take some time to reply to emails. If you'd like instant comms, I can send you my jabber account.
<user_>
Are the specs for them available?
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, specs are hardly available. Except the Nokia part numbers
<DocScrutinizer05>
when we planned to build something for "the general public" to appreciate it, we could have gone for cloning iPhone or a random arbitrary android crapfone
<user_>
Well... why not do it from the get-go?
<DocScrutinizer05>
because we're not interested
<DocScrutinizer05>
in flawed contemporary design
<DocScrutinizer05>
with shared RAM, no hw kbd, crappy capacitive touchscreen
<DocScrutinizer05>
and tivoized bootloader
<user_>
I agree with everything except the hw kb.
<user_>
I'm glad they're gone.
<bencoh>
that's actually one of the most-wanted features ;)
<jurov>
there is a niche for hw kb
<bencoh>
(I'd go for n9 if it had a hkbd, for instance)
<jurov>
and there is no recent handset available in europe that has slider
<user_>
There is a niche for cumming unto anime dolls, taking pictures of that and uploading them to the internet as well.
<bencoh>
:D
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: no, you still wouldn't ;-) it still has a quite unbearable Aegis and crapacitive-ts
<DocScrutinizer05>
I got N950, I know what i'm talking about ;-)
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: oh rigt, capacitive .... and for aegis ... I never talked about meego ;)
<jurov>
user_ yeah go derping into anime forums and tell them how it's pointelss and has no future :)
<bencoh>
(but yeah, forgot about capacitive)
<user_>
Cumming on figurines?
<user_>
Well... there is a pointlessness in it.
<bencoh>
wait, they have a reddit for that ?
<user_>
I just linked it.
<bencoh>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
please stop that!!
<user_>
I agree. Figurines shouldn't be cummed on.
<DocScrutinizer05>
last warning
<user_>
Cum on, that was a joke.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I said "last warning"
<bencoh>
meh >_>
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<user_>
Apologies for that.
<user_>
Couldn't help myself.
<DocScrutinizer05>
nevermind
<user_>
Back to hw kb, I've only used ones on blackberries.
<user_>
Found the terrible.
<user_>
them*
<user_>
Never used those wide slide-out ones.
<user_>
Is that what makes a difference?
<mvaenskae>
user_: you never used the n900's keyboard?
<mvaenskae>
it's marvelous for its size
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno, anyway I think N900 kbd is 2nd best I ever used. I still love the N810 one better
<user_>
I've never used any hw keyboard outside of a blackberry one.
<mvaenskae>
haven't used the n810 :)
<user_>
Perhaps if I ever get a chance to use the n900 one I'll change my stance.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know most users who know both prefer the N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
come to cccamp15 and have a thorough try of a N900 ;-)
<user_>
I think I'll just find one down here, shouldn't be too hard.
<DocScrutinizer05>
shouldn't be. Anyway please tell us how hard it actually was, once you (didn't) manage to find one. It's a very important info for Neo900 project
<user_>
Understood.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and don't fall for fakes or poorly refurbished ones that have crappy touchscreen or fake kbd
<user_>
I've lived in China for many years, DocScrutinizer05, you don't have to instruct me on that ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a plethory of NOKLA N900 with dualsim and 4MB RAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<jurov>
i fount n900 only recently. and it feels like an upgrade from xperia mini pro, a much newer phone
<user_>
DocScrutinizer05, have you guys heard of OnePlus?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<user_>
Best specs on the market and 400 bucks.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and a number of nogos
<user_>
And they also started out very small.
<user_>
Right.
<mvaenskae>
best specs belong the galaxy s6 right now and aren't they in some way affiliated with oppo?
<user_>
True, but for a long time it was them.
<DocScrutinizer05>
first google hit, first words: >>OnePlus Tech aims to create the best Android smartphones of the market.<<
<mvaenskae>
DocScrutinizer05: invite only must be quite high up on the list of what makes an android phone great
<user_>
Also, OnePlus 2 is coming out soon, so they will be best of the market again.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry not interested in "faster, bigger, flatter"
<mvaenskae>
user_: if rumors can be trusted they opted for the snapdragon 805
<DocScrutinizer05>
what you can't do on a 1GHz OMAP3 is prolly not worth getting done at all
<mvaenskae>
that still won't beat the exynos designed by samsung for the s6
<user_>
DocScrutinizer05, the reason I mentioned it is not to antagonize the specs, but to antagonize the price.
<jurov>
also, i expect wave of baseband exploits soon and want to stand a chance
<mvaenskae>
i would love to commence in here but alas, gotta go home :/ see you guys around
<user_>
jurov, would you kindly elaborate?
<DocScrutinizer05>
please understand that a separate modem costs around a thrid of that OnePlus, on *sourcing*
<user_>
I don't really understand. I never built a phone before.
<jurov>
user_ in every phone there is second closed-source modem with its own cpu
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no way we'll go down that path to doom of "integrate modem into SoC"
<jurov>
that in cheap phones, has access to everything
<jurov>
and the software was already shown to be buggy
<user_>
Modem as in the thing that recieves the cell signal?
<jurov>
yes
<user_>
What does the first modem do, then?
<jurov>
sorry, the "second" word is superfluous
<DocScrutinizer05>
a second system running on modem. But not always on a seprate CPU
<jurov>
i meant there is main cpu we have specs and can access and know how to secure
<jurov>
and then there is this obscure second cpu
<user_>
So why is that modem so expensive?
<user_>
No competitors?
<DocScrutinizer05>
in cheap phones like all recent smartüphones the modem OS is supervisor and the userland OS a VM hosted by the modem OS
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually for Neo900 no competitors
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<ccnnjj>
I actually liked the E7's keyboard better.
<dos1>
user_: it's the difference between having practically two separate systems connected with each other (neo900 case) or having one integrated system doing two or more tasks (modern mainstream approach)
<jurov>
the modem is expensive because processing GHz signals is not easy and it must pass rigorous certification
<dos1>
with separate modem, you have to pay for complete, complex solution with its own CPU, RAM etc.
<dos1>
obviously if you move that to the main CPU which you need to have anyway, it's going to be much cheaper
<DocScrutinizer05>
paranoid characters should appreciate the separation between modem and linux system CPU
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<user_>
And are they both closed?
<user_>
Is it the seperation that protects us?
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<dos1>
however, it posseses obvious risk - when modem firmware known to be exploitable has full access to your RAM, then no matter how secure and open your OS is, the modem effectively has full control over it
<user_>
When did this transistion happen?
<dos1>
and so does the attacker - no matter if he uses exploit, or backdoor
<DocScrutinizer05>
years ago
<jurov>
and i expect a worm exploiting it soon and it will cause as much consternation as morris worm did. only on million times bigger scale.
<user_>
So an integrated solution is much cheaper than the seperate solution?
<jurov>
yes, these two cpus sharing everything is cheaper
<DocScrutinizer05>
ALL your contemporary smartphones run an OS (Android iOS...) that's only a VM under an obscure closed source unknown modem OS
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically
<user_>
I see.
<dos1>
cheaper and smaller
<DocScrutinizer05>
not *really* a VM but almost
<bencoh>
I dont like the hypervisor/vm analogy
<DocScrutinizer05>
jurov: it's often even worse: single CPU
<bencoh>
(but I think we already went through this discussion once)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the multicore hype was only to allow dedicated CPU for modem
<user_>
Prooflink?
<bencoh>
user_: about what ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever you like. Check design of snapdragon, of any arbitrary phone, e.g. Jolla
<DocScrutinizer05>
I worked for ST-Ericcson in NovaThor development. I've seen the internals
<user_>
Forgive my skepticism, but I don't trust anecdotal evidence. Though I am inclined to believe you.
<user_>
In any case, better safe than sorry.
<DocScrutinizer05>
please simply check the TRM of any arbitrary phone SoC
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. the above mentioned snapdragon design
<user_>
Just a second.
<DocScrutinizer05>
they never have dedicated RAM for the modem, and often not even a dedicated CPU IP on the chiip's block diagram
<bencoh>
MSM (for instance) has a different arm core
<bencoh>
but still; single die, and shared RAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even early implementations of NovaThor that used a multichip chipset had shared RAM which relied on cooperative sharing and access blocking to separate the modem OS from userland OS, if only for simple data transfer to and from modem via shared mmemory
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: I know what you're talking about, I guess. We checked blackphone, didn't we?
<DocScrutinizer05>
user_: bencoh: of course. Not suggesting you trust my word. Just found it funny when you were "astonished" that I'm right
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<user_>
How did you guys check blackphone?
<DocScrutinizer05>
user_: nm, no offense taken. We encourage users to check our concept by themselves, it's the only way to understand the threats and be sure we managed to fix most of them for you
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((how check black?)) simple, just see what SoC they use
<user_>
It was integrated, wasn't it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that SoC looks quite a lot like shared RAM design
<user_>
So how could such an error get past them? Was it deliberate?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, they focused on the OS and app software, neglecting the fact that any OS is only as secure as the hw platform it runs on
<DocScrutinizer05>
blackphone does pretty good secure communication when you watch it from outside (as in "what's the OTA data it sends?"). But it's not particularly better security on hw side than the average cheesy android smartphone it's actually based on
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw sth that also applies to jolla basically
<DocScrutinizer05>
jolla has no strong emphasis on secure protocols like ZRTP etc, but the main crux is it also has a closed bootloader that starts whatever supervisor and onmly such supervisor then loads and runs the linux system, under control of the obscure blobs
<DocScrutinizer05>
(blackphone) Zimmerman (ZRTP) was one of the initiators iirc
<DocScrutinizer05>
so their focus and approach been somewhat predetermined
<user_>
Yes, I find it upsetting that Zimmerman would let such a huge hole get by.
<user_>
As dos1 pointed out with his monkey island example.
<user_>
Anyways, I have to leave now. Thanks for the info and I'll message you as soon I have some information for you guys.
<user_>
I probably won't come back to IRC, though.
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<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah I had blackphone in mind, and we did check it :)
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<Oksana>
(I've heard 7-year-olds give better presentations.) Funny... /me should watch OHSW14 presentation, after making my own presentation today.../ (A slide-out keyboard in 2015? The general public won't take this phone seriously.) Many people are nostalgic for hw kb. http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/08/blackberry-l-concept-redefines-slider-phones/
<DocScrutinizer05>
looks like a pretty 'normal' B2B connector. Exact type I can't tell from this tiny pic (couldn't from a A2 pic either ;-P )
* Oksana
: Okay... Just wondering if there is a point in attaching capacitive keyboard to non-BlackBerry device...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
capacitive kbd?
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<Oksana>
BlackBerry Passport ;-) Basically, each key of the keyboard, besides being pressed-not-pressed, also feels touched-not-touched, since its capacitance changes when a finger touches it
* Oksana
thinks that capacitive keyboard makes more sense than capacitive screen, since nobody would even try to use a stylus on a keyboard - not practical - and typing on phone keyboard while wearing gloves isn't in fashion, either
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<Oksana>
Actually, you can still type on capacitive keyboard while wearing gloves. Just, you will not be able to select text, or something like that - the touch-enabled functionality of keyboard isn't essential, just handy to have.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I miss a killer usercase for capacitive kbd
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I miss _any_ usecase so far
<MonkeyofDoom>
could be interesting with a chorded IM
<DocScrutinizer05>
??
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* Oksana
makes a guess : Instead of trying to press several keys at the same time, you would try to touch several keys at the same time. Should be easier, aka, faster.
<Oksana>
As long as capacitive keyboard is hidden-from-accidental-pocket-presses (aka slide-out), it could actually be faster for 'casual' typing. Or, you could try to have one language for touch-capacitive-typing, and another language for press-down-typing: no need to switch layouts.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you ever *tried* this? sounds like a usability nightmare, blatantly ignoring all rules about ergonomics
<DocScrutinizer05>
you hardly can switch between different typing styles. Most people are happy when they master one without to many mistakes aka typos
<DocScrutinizer05>
too many*
<Oksana>
Hmm... I mean, like when I want to insert α and β for mathematical formulae. Switching layouts back and forth for inserting such a symbol does sound like a nightmare - and it exists.
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* Oksana
has assigned Ctrl+Shift+3 to Greek language, Ctrl+Shift+1 to English language, Ctrl+Shift+2 and and Ctrl+Shift+5 to you-guess-what, and and Ctrl+Shift+4 seems to be unassignable on Windows