Turl changed the topic of #linux-sunxi to: Allwinner/sunxi development discussion - Don't ask to ask. Just ask and wait! - See http://linux-sunxi.org | https://github.com/linux-sunxi/ | Logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/linux-sunxi
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<parabyte> where can i find the source code for the zet6221 driver
<parabyte> the original source code from the vender?
<parabyte> this is the allwinner
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<KBme> hahah
<KBme> well, looks like allwinner has nice hardware
<KBme> but they seem to have a hard time keeping up on the software side
<KBme> I think if they don't change that they'll just cut the tree under themselves
<[7]> Turl: do you still need my disp/vsync and mali (r3p2 android compatibility) fixes?
<[7]> they seem to work well so far, although I haven't tested anything graphics intensive beyond flicking between launcher pages
<Turl> [7]: that would be great
<[7]> ok, I'll try to separate those from my other patches tomorrow then
<parabyte> oh cool you checked out the video
<parabyte> why i posted it here
<parabyte> :)
<parabyte> do any of you guys know where i can find the original vendor source code for the zet6221
<Turl> parabyte: have you looked on the vendor website or the mailing list?
<parabyte> i have looked over the mailing list vendor web site
<parabyte> cant say i have!
<parabyte> let me check
<parabyte> should of been first stop!
<parabyte> Turl, ill try its in chinese i think http://www.zeitecsemi.com/server.php
<parabyte> !
<parabyte> and translate not helping much!
<parabyte> wowzer thanks :D
<parabyte> i am unsure why i could not find it!
<parabyte> really appreciate the help been 3 days looking for this!
<[7]> google translate did the trick
<[7]> the output is utterly weird, but you get used to it :)
<parabyte> ooops and i emailed them :O
<parabyte> I could not get wingrines driver to play with xorg
<parabyte> at all
<parabyte> i mean with debian
<parabyte> I tried lots of things!
<parabyte> oh wow the source code has chinese in it
<parabyte> Chinese
<[7]> even allwinner's kernel source has chinese comments
<[7]> so unless you're talking about chinese file or variable names here, I'm not surprised :P
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<parabyte> oh okay haha
<parabyte> okay i am using your source tree
<parabyte> any idea off the top of your head what linux/earlysuspend.h is on about
<parabyte> i will look into tomorrow in depth when i get some sleep
<parabyte> okay i got what it is
<parabyte> its android specific
<parabyte> and was rejected from mainline
<parabyte> ill work around that code! ;)
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<parabyte> i take it you guys are moving away from android stuff in your kernel?
<KBme> i think allwinner (and maybe sunxi) officially do not support linux, they support android (wtf? android is now disjoint from linux?)
<parabyte> i think its include paths
<parabyte> yeah not its not finding the header file for mach/sys_config.h
<parabyte> lol nightmare
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<parabyte> i suspect variable names have changed
<parabyte> :D
<parabyte> ill bbl
<parabyte> thanks 7
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<wens> just sent a mail to AMPAK again. wonder if I'll get a reply
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<oliv3r> mornin'
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<juanfont> hi
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<oliv3r> just an FYI, I created a gitorious linux-sunxi and mirrored the 3 main repo's there. I can add more etc (as can mnemoc et al)
<wens> isn't that more work to keep them in sync?
<oliv3r> yes
<oliv3r> but some people have problems using github because the webUI isn't opensource
<mnemoc> If you like I can teach the robot which currently mirrors sunxi-next and master and android-* into linux-sunxi to push to gitorious
<oliv3r> mnemoc: awesome, i'm currently uploading the rpo's (i probably did it wrong, but we'll see when it's done)
<mnemoc> oliv3r: poke me when it's up
<oliv3r> mnemoc: you are administrator/owner of the project/rpeo's
<oliv3r> mnemoc: sunxi-boards is up
<oliv3r> i can't push the BSP, my copy is very dirty and broken :p
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<oliv3r> mnemoc: why does luke keep saying that this 'sunxi party where he wasn't invited'?
<oliv3r> mnemoc: how did you 'fork' from rhombus-tech that causes him to be so bitter?
<oliv3r> mnemoc: can you setup the bot to sync the origin branches (and delete mine) i mindlessly did a git push; but that only pushed my own stuff
<oliv3r> but with the bluk there, the other branches shouldn't cause much pushing
<mnemoc> oliv3r: businesses. the sunxi "fork" was agreed on IRC by the community. to give us a place where to be first class citizens (and not yet another SoC) and to leave #arm-network for EOMA68 as Luke stated several times
<mnemoc> after the fork r-t lost "control" and relevance
<mnemoc> by the time this channel was spinned off the arm-netbook list was discussing about leaving the A10 behind in favour of other SoCs
<mnemoc> and most of us where there because of the A10 more than the EOMA68 (patented) standard
<oliv3r> yeah but what's the bitterness about
<oliv3r> i mean, nobody did not-invite him or anything
<oliv3r> this is nothing but evolution isn't it?
<mnemoc> I don't know.... I even paid the 75E for the improv thing to support luke's project
<mnemoc> oliv3r: no one sent him a personal mail. no one invited anyone, it was talked in IRC, where he was "present"
<oliv3r> that's what I thought (the fork was before my sunxi days)
<oliv3r> irc spinoff I was there for, and it made sense (still does)
<mnemoc> we had #arm-netbook taken over by sunxi-specific and eoma68-unrelated issues
<mnemoc> same for the arm-netbook mailing list
<mnemoc> and we were reminded several times that it wasn't the place for non-eom68 discussions
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<mnemoc> it wasn't a fork. as eom68 is a hardware PRODUCT and sunxi is a soc-specific software support project
<mnemoc> products have their own channels and lists, we here try to remain neutral
<oliv3r> the way I see it, Rhombus focuses around EOMA68 and 'needs'sunxi for the kernel
<oliv3r> once they switch soc, they'll 'need'a new community
<mnemoc> same as cubietech or olimex or miniand or itead....
<oliv3r> exactly
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<oliv3r> we work on the kernel/software side of things, #cubietech or #olimex focuses on general users of their boards and general stuff
<mnemoc> eoma68 has it's own fans, not bound to sunxi
<oliv3r> pretty healthy seperation followed by healthy evolution
<mnemoc> but it took them over 2 years to produce a card
<mnemoc> it's not sunxi's fault
<oliv3r> nah, but he keeps saying 'i wasn't invited' 'sunxi split off and did their own thing'
<mnemoc> oliv3r: yes, it's very heathly to keep businesses separated from open source projects, even if there are connections
<mnemoc> oliv3r: he didn't get a personal mail. no one did
<oliv3r> i just don't get it :p
<oliv3r> hopefully i didn't say anything stupid then ;)
<n01> I didn't know there was an invitation :)
<mnemoc> he seems to have expected one
<mnemoc> and everything was openly discussed in the #arm-netbook channel, while lkcl was "present"
<mnemoc> it's not our fault he didn't put attention in "his" community
<mnemoc> oliv3r: I prefer to not open those things at work :p
<oliv3r> mnemoc: oh you are at work!
<oliv3r> good
<oliv3r> where are you working now?
<mnemoc> opensynergy.com, virtualization team.
<oliv3r> very cool
<oliv3r> sounds healthy :)
<oliv3r> you got taht done quickly then
<mnemoc> yes, but imx6q 3.0.5 based with vivante blobs :|
<mnemoc> 3.0.35*
<mnemoc> oliv3r: yes, 3 weeks "idling" only
<mnemoc> and love the env
<oliv3r> libv said vivante is also an interesting target
<mnemoc> at least the kernel driver isn't as useless as with other GPUs
<mnemoc> there is some real stuff happening within the kernel
<oliv3r> kernel layer open?
<mnemoc> yes, sure. GPL ;-)
<mnemoc> but we can beat everyone by adding android glue for lima and cedarx re
<mnemoc> fully free android 4.4!
<mnemoc> even if we don't support everything the closed blobs do yet
<mnemoc> as side effect sunxi, lima and cedarx re will get a lot of attention and new devs
<mnemoc> and sunxi-devel/-next obviusly
<mnemoc> I wish days were longer :<
<oliv3r> yeah, but a salways we need more manhourtime :)
<oliv3r> yes!
<oliv3r> book is being posponed by 2 -4 weeks; hollidays etc :(
<mnemoc> when is fosdem?
<oliv3r> feb 2nd
<oliv3r> are you going?
<mnemoc> we need sunxi-3.10 and android-4.4 with basic lima and cedarx re glue by then
<mnemoc> I'll be in debt of vacation days at that time :<
<mnemoc> but will try
<oliv3r> it's weekend!~
<oliv3r> so that's a No, your not going?
<mnemoc> if it's doable without touching friday and monday I will go
<oliv3r> cool
<n01> I'm coming \0/
<mnemoc> *cough*
<oliv3r> awesome
<oliv3r> we should def. do a quick meetup then, i know Tsvetan2 was asking for it :)
<oliv3r> Tsvetan2: ^
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<n01> I'll prepare a banner with "Go Oliver!!" to show during your talk :D
<oliv3r> LOL
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<mnemoc> and #1 things like americans use in baseball matches
<n01> hahaha of course
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<Tsvetan2> oliv3r Benjamin set up nice dinner at last FOSDEM he could arrange one again, just have to know the number of sunxi developers
<juanfont> it's nothing special, but i've just tried my A20 dev board as a DLNA render using https://github.com/hzeller/gmrender-resurrect. It works like a charm :)
<oliv3r> Tsvetan2: i love the idea, maybe we should do a post on the ML early january to seewho's going
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<mnemoc> Tsvetan: saturday or sunday night?
<Tsvetan> mnemoc I guess saturday is better as sunday many people may leave
<oliv3r> sunday night is bad :p
<oliv3r> yeah gotta be at home by sunday night :p
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<mnemoc> how far from BRU is fosdem?
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<gzamboni> i'm also going to Fosdem :) 1st time
<mnemoc> everyone with cheering oliver material please
<oliv3r> not too far, but I think they have bus stops close by
<oliv3r> sure, no pressure
<n01> I land in Charleroi :/
<mnemoc> oliv3r: so leaving BRU at sun. 20:45 is fine?
<oliv3r> there's a bus going to the brussels train station, then a train going to the airport
<oliv3r> it's about an hour of traveling
<oliv3r> mnemoc: i take it the plan is, at one point, to have git.linux-sunxi.org as the leading repo pushing to github (gitorious) via the bot to keep those in sync?
<oliv3r> so users read from github/gitorious
<gzamboni> i will have a: Go go Oliver Ranger!
<mnemoc> linux-sunxi.org is already mirroring. http and git interfaces are missing :p
<oliv3r> so we have git.linux-sunxi.org allready?
<oliv3r> awesome
<oliv3r> shoudl have posted that
<mnemoc> not yet
<mnemoc> i'll setup git:// and cgit tonight
<oliv3r> mnemoc: crap i think i forogt my password for maxime :D
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<oliv3r> i know I used something I thought i wouldn't forget
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<mnemoc> oliv3r: should I reset it?
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<oliv3r> mnemoc: i think so, im' trying to think it, but i can't remember
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<arete74_> /msg mnemoc hi, i am happy for you new $work! .-)
<mnemoc> arete74_: thanks :)
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<wens> has allwinner ever confirmed they used dwmac as gmac in A20?
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<oliv3r> of course not
<oliv3r> wens: but they use a number of designware IP's so it's not unlikly
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<plaes> does anyone know where can I download allwinner official sdk?
<oliv3r> from allwinner of course
<oliv3r> i think we host a copy though
<plaes> can't find it from their site :S
<oliv3r> plaes: but what exactly are you after?
<oliv3r> because the SDK is a few gigabytes and gives you all of the android stuff
<oliv3r> if your just after the sdk kernel sources, those are on github
<plaes> just wanted tp update this page http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux-tree-diff
<plaes> s/tp/to
<oliv3r> plaes: or atleast i thought we did, i thought they where on mnemoc's github repo
<plaes> hm.. I wish there was a staging tree for smaller drivers
<wens> AMPAK (manufacturer of AP6210) is asking me what product I am working on...
<mnemoc> the reference-3.x branches live in the linux-sunxi repo
<mnemoc> x in {0,4,10}
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<plaes> ooh.. there's reference-3.10
<oliv3r> mnemoc: did you ever upload the sdk 3.4 kernel to your repo?
<plaes> though, that doesn't seem to be feature-complete?
<oliv3r> lichee-3.4
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<oliv3r> plaes: 3.10 is the LTS kernel with drivers backported to 3.10
<oliv3r> sunxi drivers*
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<mnemoc> no, I didn't
<Turl> oliv3r: did you seriously name the team "owners"? :p
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<Turl> oliv3r: I think those team names are global to all of gitorious
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<oliv3r> Turl: i copied the name from linux-sunxi
<oliv3r> er from github; all is modifiable
<oliv3r> Turl: but yeah, i noticed the same :p
<Turl> oliv3r: add some sunxi- prefixes, otherwise we look like scammers trying to impersonate gitorious :p
<Turl> Tsvetan seems to be on a roll launching new products today :P
<Tsvetan> there are 16 total
<Tsvetan> and Im far away from half the list
<Tsvetan> Arduino-NANO and LIME are to follow :)
<Turl> Tsvetan: :D
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<oliv3r> Tsvetan: sweet
<oliv3r> Turl: your admin! but i will make the names proper
<oliv3r> i first wanted to copy all github teams etc
<oliv3r> but kinda gave up on that for now :p
<oliv3r> Turl: can you confirm you just got an invite to a new group? it doesn't show me your e-mail for this one, but did earlier today
<libv> hrm, did i miss something?
<libv> what's wrong with github?
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<Turl> oliv3r: yeah I did
<Turl> libv: "it's not open source!11"
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<Turl> libv: mirrors can't hurt anyway
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<oliv3r> it's just an extra mirror
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<Turl> libv: github is not really known for its reliability :)
<libv> who is going to do the work to keeping them both up to date?
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<Turl> libv: the server, most likely
<oliv3r> libv: but lkcl has a problem with contributing/collaborating with sunxi because a) we use github; b) we use google-groups
* slapin thinks that mirrors CAN hurt
<libv> making sure that one is not out of sync with the other
<oliv3r> yeah mnemoc will make the robot push to gitorious
* slapin just broken one with his hand
<oliv3r> slapin: hehe
<Turl> slapin: ouch
<Turl> slapin: 7y bad luck? :P
<oliv3r> libv: i think ideally; we'll push to git.linux-sunxi.org, and users pull from gitorious/github to lighten the load/BW
<oliv3r> to me, github is nothing more then a BW provider
<libv> they are git repos. we all have local copies. if needs be users can be told to switch to gitorious when something happens
* slapin was too much into the meeting topic and was very inaccurate with office chair
<libv> *sigh*
<oliv3r> atleast now we're RMS compatible :p
<libv> i really do not get the issue with github or googlegroups
<oliv3r> libv: the kicker is though, github/googlegroups are a no go, but gmail appearantly for the moment is still acceptable
<libv> oliv3r: and that is a useful goal?
<libv> haha
<oliv3r> to be fair, I wasn't aware that github was not usable as it's not truely opensource (the webui)
<oliv3r> then again, they aren't distributing it :p
<oliv3r> as far as the git server goes, i'd be supprised if they use a different one
<n01> following this idea one should stop using google search also
<oliv3r> so pushing/pulling source is still done with the opensource server afaik
<Turl> n01: duckduckgo :p
<oliv3r> don't get me wrong, I'm a RMS fan :p
<libv> it's a waste of effort, and is needless fragmentation of resources with overhead that would've been better divested somewhere else
<n01> Turl: omg no :)
<libv> oliv3r: i am not.
<n01> RMS stinks too much
<Turl> n01: actually the !thing concept is nice :p
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<Turl> but that's about it, the results really don't compare to google's
<libv> oliv3r: in my past 10ys, i have never found him relevant or useful
<libv> oliv3r: worst case, he was actively proclaiming how fantastic .tw vendors were, unlike .us hw vendors...
<libv> at the exact time when VIA was seriously f-ing up code releases and sticking proprietary licenses on it
<wens> fantastic how?
* wens laughs
<libv> rms & reality = 0
<oliv3r> well rms is a nutjob
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<oliv3r> i read a piece about how he was chasing this one restaurant that had pepsi becaus coca cola co was evil and bad
<oliv3r> as if pepsi doesn't pull the same shit :p anyhow, he's a nutjob, but i do think he's right about a few things
<oliv3r> the whole opensoruce thing i mean :)
<libv> bios free modesetting, the freeing of ATI, first consumer motherboard which could be booted to VGA textmode with no binaries or bios, lima...
<Turl> free software* :P
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<libv> you would think that RMS or the FSF would be involved with those things, right?
<oliv3r> but i do go beyond :p
<oliv3r> free firmware
<oliv3r> and once all the soft-side is sorted and all converted; libre-hardware
<Turl> oliv3r: btw, I'll send the uboot mbus patches in a bit
<libv> at best, rms or fsf are causing extra overhead for people who want to actually get things done
<oliv3r> Turl: sure; i can test them today, and merge them too
<Turl> oliv3r: that'd be great
<oliv3r> Turl: but i do have to warn you, i don't have ssvb's memtesting stuff
<oliv3r> Turl: only whatever is in your rootfs :)
<wens> how should we get u-boot gmac support merged?
<oliv3r> if you only want it in our repo (for now, testing) just send an e-mail to the ML
<oliv3r> i'll merge it to our current tree
<oliv3r> but i leave from work at 16:30 so no testing after that
<wens> oliv3r: thing is, it's based on jemk's patches
<oliv3r> so it's not in a mainline state
<wens> no it's not
<wens> I didn't know we had mainline support for u-boot
<oliv3r> well
<oliv3r> we don't :p
<oliv3r> but the gmac thing should be able to be pushed mostly AW free?
<oliv3r> since it's a stmac update
<oliv3r> if you have a tree that I can merge, i'll do that too
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<oliv3r> with both your and jemk's patches in
<wens> IIRC, the only tweaks to dw were dma burst length
<oliv3r> ok I don't have lan cables to test though atm, so can only do a compiile/boot test on cb1 cb2 cb3
<wens> oliv3r: this also has your ram size patches before jemk's patches
<oliv3r> those are allready merged though
<oliv3r> lets hope the merge won't go horribl e:p
<oliv3r> i'll clone, and cherry-pick those last 6 patches then
<wens> fingers crossed
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<Turl> oliv3r: check your mail
<Turl> :)
<oliv3r> it merges :p
<oliv3r> '60 Minutes of Excel Secrets'?
<oliv3r> fucking spam :(
<Turl> hm, the list didn't seem to get it yet
<Turl> haha
<navym> drives and pulls are 2bits each in manual, drv &= ~(0xf << offset); seems not right
<oliv3r> Turl: did you catch the interrupt changes hansg and maxime where talking about a few days ago? going from 1 to 4 on sunxi?
<Turl> oliv3r: crap, I used the wrong address for the list >.<
<Turl> oliv3r: yeah, I saw the convo
<oliv3r> Turl: so all sun7i interrupts should be 4 at the end then, right?
<oliv3r> i asked on ML but didn't get a reply
<Turl> oliv3r: I believe so
<Turl> oliv3r: maxime sent a patch to lakml cleaning it all
<Turl> oliv3r: if you delete those patches I'll resend to the right list now
<Turl> I used .org instead of .com :p
<oliv3r> Turl: well my driver isn't merged yet :p
<oliv3r> Turl: all ready git am-ed them
<oliv3r> but i don't htink it'll matter for the patch?
<Turl> oliv3r: yeah it doesn't matter
<oliv3r> right, compiling both your sets
<Turl> but for the record on the ML :p
<Turl> ok, resent to the right address now
<oliv3r> :D
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<oliv3r> wingrime: pong
<mnemoc> fosdem 2014 ripoff airplane tickets confirmed \o/
<oliv3r> mnemoc: whoot
<oliv3r> bah 2 minute until hoemtime
<oliv3r> no compile time tests
<oliv3r> New Product in stock: A10-OLinuXino-LIME-BOX plastic enclosure for LIME looks so sexy
<wens> no flashing LEDs?
<Turl> wens: no going blind when your board boots \o/
<oliv3r> it builds
<oliv3r> hometime now1
<wens> Turl: the blue and white LEDs are the worst
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<wens> we had a KVM switch with a blue LED in a rack at face height, with the console below it lol
<Turl> n01: I think Andrew Morton is taking rtc patches now
<Turl> wens: yeah
<Turl> wens: my PC case has a blue led for power and HDD
<Turl> wens: when I still had them connected, leaving the PC on overnight was unbearable :)
<n01> Turl: thanks for the info, that's why alessandro was silent
<wens> Turl: I have one too. it gives the room an eerie glow
<n01> Turl: I'll wait for Maxime review. anyway in the maintainers file is still indicated Alessandro Zummo as maintainer of the subsystem
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<Turl> n01: yep, but he doesn't seem to be active lately
<Turl> n01: if you look at the emails from andrew on lakml and filter by rtc you'll find a few
<n01> I'll add andrew in v5 (I'm sure there will be a v5 :)
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<Turl> mripard: *poke* :)
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<wingrime> oliv3r: PM for a20 realy builds>
<wingrime> ?
<TheSeven> wingrime: it does for me at least
<TheSeven> it just doesn't work
<TheSeven> the suspend stack apparently ends up in emac fifo ram, which isn't so great
<TheSeven> and some other things don't work either, that wasn't the only problem
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<wingrime> TheSeven: but emac are same with a10, thing that only changed, default memory mapping after boot
<wingrime> TheSeven: I figured it some time ago, but without any idea with suspend
<wingrime> TheSeven:also, can you try apply my patches form a10 pm to a20 pm (git log)
<TheSeven> i looked at those and they didn't seem relevant
<TheSeven> at least the one that I found in your pull request
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<wingrime> TheSeven: no , I talking about my patches in sunxi git tree
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<oliv3r> wingrime: why wouldn't it build?
<oliv3r> suspend stack should go into the security sram; got lots of that
<oliv3r> or disable all the sram buffers and use it then
<oliv3r> but i'm not sram expert
<oliv3r> far from :)
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<wens> I got way more feedback on the gmac patches than I expected. a bit hard to keep up
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<TheSeven> oliv3r: I thought the kernel isn't even supposed to have access to secure RAM?
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<TheSeven> we should have plenty of SRAM space right above the code though
<oliv3r> TheSeven: maybe so, but we can configure the sram to be available to the CPU or the TrustZone
<oliv3r> since we dont' even use trustzone, it's aw aste of 512 kiB of SRAM :)
<oliv3r> wens: :p
<TheSeven> 512? I thought 128?
<TheSeven> er, 64
<TheSeven> which is 512kbits
<oliv3r> 64 kiB :p
<oliv3r> i was wrong
<oliv3r> sram-C was 512; but we aren't even sure if we can use all of it
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<oliv3r> so anyway, for standby 64 kiB should be plentyfull
<TheSeven> yes, we can also get away with the 32 that we have in SRAM-A
<TheSeven> which is what the code is currently doiung
<TheSeven> doing*
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<torbenh3> so whats the problem with, what the code is currently doing ?
<oliv3r> i have no clue :D
<oliv3r> i thought we needed more space for suspend
<torbenh3> huh ?
<torbenh3> 2k should be enough for everybody :S
<TheSeven> the code is ~16K, plus stack
<TheSeven> and maybe a little BSS
<torbenh3> what does the code do ?
<TheSeven> basically handle everything that needs to be done while DRAM is shut down
<torbenh3> 16k seem like very much.
<torbenh3> or is that code written in C ?
<torbenh3> and why does it need a stack ?
<Turl> TheSeven: isn't sram a1 and a2 good for it? I think that's what sun4i uses
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<TheSeven> torbenh3: it's a whole lot of C code
<TheSeven> it needs drivers for dram controller, clock control, i2c/twi, axp209, gpio, rtc, irq management, ...
<TheSeven> Turl: yes, I've put it into A1/A2 now
<TheSeven> the stack used to be A3, which didn't work
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<PotbyteYe> In your kernel do i specifically have to enable Android kernel modules or do i have to patch it in
<TheSeven> you should enable some config options, but it has all required patches
<PotbyteYe> I notice trying to compile android modules against standard kernel throws errors even if i have the platform specific headers
<PotbyteYe> Thanks :)
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<PotbyteYe> that be why no android drivers are building TheSeven !!!
<PotbyteYe> yeah i decided it would an amazing idea to not include any android modules!
<PotbyteYe> did not occur to me that drivers would not build! I guess i could get debian to play with the android modules
<PotbyteYe> i was just hoping for a vanilla Linux experience including compilation and modules
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<TheSeven> well you can usually run normal debian userspace on an android kernel
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<mripard> Turl: pong
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<Turl> mripard: read the context :p
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<mripard> Turl: ah, yeah
<mripard> just reading through my mail backlog after being away for a week end in the middle of nowhere
<mripard> I saw n01 mail
<TheSeven> (apply this to the v20 kernel driver to make api v19 (android) libs work, while breaking v20 libs)
<jinzo> damn there're some A10 based car radios out there
<lkcl> mnemoc: i may have been quotes in quotes the #arm-netbook channel at the time that the discussion was taking place, but because it was "general discussion", i didn't see *any* of it.
<lkcl> mnemoc: until you mentioned it in here and happened also to mention the word "lkcl", i *happened* to get an "alert" from xchat (in blue) telling me that my name had come up in a discussion
<n01> mripard: the ping is not to pressure you :)
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<lkcl> so: no. i was NOT aware of the existence of the linux-sunxi.org web site being set up until MONTHS afterwards.
<mnemoc> i understand you were not aware of the existance of this channel or it's mailing list
<mnemoc> but nothing was hidden
<Turl> lkcl: you now know, so what's the problem? :)
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<mnemoc> you were busy doing other things, and that's fine
<Turl> TheSeven: thanks
<mnemoc> but don't come now ranting
<parabyte> TheSeven, you helped me find that zet6221 driver it needs bunches of android headers
<Turl> TheSeven: would it be possible to send them to the list?
<parabyte> well 2 specfically
<TheSeven> Turl: sure, although they might need some cleanup (mostly whitespace mess)
<lkcl> Turl: there are two problems. the first is that because i wasn't consulted, i did not have an opportunity to mention the considerable resources available from several people in the software libre world who would have been able to help
<Turl> lkcl: what kind of resources?
<lkcl> as a result of that non-consultation, the linux-sunxi community went off and used proprietary services that people who have specific goals to respect and honour software freedom CANNOT USE
<Turl> lkcl: such as?
<mnemoc> lkcl: why should you have been consulted? did you own the developers?
<lkcl> Turl: running git, mailing lists, hosting services, entire servers, web sites, and so on.
<lkcl> mnemoc: you've read - in its entirety - what i wrote on-list?
<lkcl> i specifically stated "you are entirely free to do whatever you find most useful to you"
<jinzo> lkcl, you still didn't drop that stuff? It's still bothering you?
<mnemoc> lkcl: i haven't read the arm-netbook ML in a very long time
<jinzo> I don't understand _why_ is it still bothering you?
<lkcl> jinzo: there's more going on here than it seems.
<Turl> lkcl: you can get the code and collaborate with just free software if you so wish
<lkcl> one at a time, please. let me answer Turl's questions.
<lkcl> Turl: let me give you an example.
<mnemoc> lkcl: you stated seveal times the #arm-netbook channel was the EOMA68 channel, same for the ML
<jinzo> lkcl, and it affects you how? is someone bothering you? someone pestering you? someone doing you harm?
<lkcl> Turl: i made some patches which fixed the problems in the allwinner-a20-3.3-dev source code
<lkcl> mnemoc, jinzo: one at a time please.
<mnemoc> lkcl: and that for EOMA68 the A10 was just one of many SoCs. fine.
<lkcl> Turl: i then *could not* even notify anyone of the fixes that i had made.
<lkcl> Turl: why could i not do that?
<mnemoc> lkcl: for us the allwinner SoCs in general are what matters, not one or another board or vendor
<Turl> lkcl: why not?
<Turl> lkcl: because you did not want to? dunno
<lkcl> Turl: oh i very much wanted to.
<jinzo> Turl, because it's propertiary you know, and stuff
<Turl> lkcl: they why did you not?
<Turl> lkcl: you could've reached via irc or email using just free sw
<jinzo> Turl, he couldn't use a mail client to send an email you know
<jinzo> Turl, but the mail is hosted on non free service
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<lkcl> Turl: i _did_ notify people via irc. i sent a message on irc because it was the only channel available
<lkcl> jinzo: please do not be sarcastic, it does you a great dis-service.
<lkcl> Turl: did anyone notice that i'd sent a message on irc?
<Turl> lkcl: we have a mailing list you can write to without even signing up for
<lkcl> Turl: where is that mailing list running?
<Turl> lkcl: on linux-sunxi@googlegroups.com
<Turl> feel free to send us your patches if you so wish
<lkcl> Turl: is the source code for that mailing list available publicly?
<jinzo> lkcl, I just don't get it why you're still bothering with all this after so many mails wasted on this already.
<Turl> lkcl: are you running the mailing list?
<lkcl> Turl: is the source code for that domain publicly available?
<Turl> is there such a thing as "code for a domain?"
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<jinzo> lkcl, is the routers software you're using to chat with us open source? availible publicly?
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<jinzo> it routes packages, quite similary to that mailing list routing mails
<lkcl> Turl: let me put it another way, then. is the software behind the services that are ... yes, that's the one.
<lkcl> exactly.
<jinzo> and I still can't fathom, why you're still at this - even tho almost everything was said on that topic
<lkcl> so if the service does not have its source code available (as google groups does not), then in order to respect software freedom - which is one of the key goals of the rhombus tech project - i CANNOT USE IT.
<jinzo> all the views were expressed
<Turl> lkcl: it doesn't affect your freedom
<lkcl> jinzo: i've already said: one at a time, please.
<jinzo> who is forcing you to use it?
<Turl> lkcl: you're not running the software
<lkcl> Turl: yes. it does.
<Turl> lkcl: then don't use the internet, there's lots of nonfree evil cisco routers out there
<lkcl> Turl: that's not the issue. the issue is that the software behind that
<jinzo> lkcl, I'm quite fine to recieve anwsers later - but I don't have the time to waste, yet again, on that topic
<lkcl> Turl: don't you _dare_ mention that to rms :) :)
<Turl> lkcl: you're relaying public information, I do not see how a service such as google groups affects your freedom in any way
<lkcl> actually, he probably has a good answer.
<Turl> when you can use fully free sw to interact with it
<Turl> and it is based on a standard protocol
<lkcl> Turl: the source code of the service(s) running on googlegroups are not publicly available.
<Turl> lkcl: but you're not running google groups
<lkcl> Turl: you are missing the point. it's not what i use *to* interact with those services, it's whether the service *itself* has its software source code published.
<lkcl> do you understand the difference:
<lkcl> ?
<Turl> lkcl: indeed
<Turl> lkcl: it affects the freedom of google in this case
<Turl> not yours
<lkcl> Turl: again you're missing the point: it has nothing to do with *who* is running google groups, it has everything specifically and exclusively to do with whether the source code is available.
<lkcl> Turl: there are people who are better qualified to answer these kinds of things - people who have been around a lot longer than i
<lkcl> they are people whom i respect. in many ways i "get" what the issues are but i do not have the... how-to-say... "authority" nor the skill to explain "why".
<jinzo> I think it's way better to get shit done, than to discuss what mailing list (that is a service that uses a open protocol and can be acessed with open software) is serving.
<lkcl> i _do_ however, once i work out a particular principle, stick to it because it is only by leading by example that i can say "yes, i honour that principle and no i am not being hypocritical"
<lkcl> jinzo: that's a slippery slope.
<jinzo> I'm all about open source and open*, but a service that doesen't lock your data, can be acessed from open source software and has known open protocols is quite down the list
<lkcl> a very slippery slope.
<Turl> lkcl: I'll continue discussing this once you read https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.en.html
<jinzo> not really.
<lkcl> Turl: deal
<jinzo> it's not slippery slope. It's like refusing to access samba shares
<jinzo> or windows shares with samba software or whatever.
<jinzo> but anyways, it was fun as always.
<jinzo> good luck on your endavours and I hope you'll come clear on what or who is forcing you to use and interact with the non-free linux-sunxi services
<jinzo> *related
<lkcl> Turl: ok, so that page is acutely relevant. googlegroups services qualify as "SaaS".
<Turl> lkcl: it does not, it's not SaaS
<lkcl> Turl: also, googlegroups is collecting additional data on its users.
<Turl> lkcl: you cannot communicate if everyone runs a mailing list server on their PC
<jinzo> on a more on topic note, you can run xen on A20? That looks sweet.
<Night-Shade> that article is mixing two issues, the question of security on hosted services and the question of releasing innovations back to the community who's work they where built on
<Turl> jinzo: apparently :) recent development
<lkcl> Turl: why do you believe that googlegroups is not a "Software Service"?
<jinzo> I knew about virt stuff hitting arms, but being cheap and out in the wild? damn :D
<Turl> lkcl: "...when using the service is equivalent to having a copy of a hypothetical program and running it yourself. In this case, we call it Software as a Service (SaaS).."
<Turl> lkcl: mailing lists don't work distributedly
<lkcl> Turl: you have completely misunderstood, in a way which is bizarre. of *course* nobody can run mailing list software on their personal PCs behind firewalls!
<Turl> lkcl: firewalls are irrelevant
<Turl> lkcl: mailing lists work because there's just one and everyone subscribes to it
<lkcl> Turl: but what someone *can* do - such as alain williams, or phil hands, or myself, or in fact anyone can do, is rent a server somewhere (not behind a firewall or NAT), install free software (e.g. mailman) on it, and use that.
<Turl> you cannot hope everyone who wants to receive a message would set one up and ask everyone else to subscribe to his
<Turl> it'd be a mess
<lkcl> in fact, alain already runs mailman for dozens of people, entirely at zero monetary cost, most of them for free software projects.
<Turl> lkcl: stuff like Gmail is SaaS
<Night-Shade> but does he release all of the source to do so?
<lkcl> likewise, phil runs git services (at zero monetary cost), fo
<lkcl> Night-Shade: YES
<lkcl> Night-Shade: YES HE FUCKING WELL DOES.
<lkcl> of COURSE he fucking well does.
<lkcl> ok?
<lkcl> in fact what he does (did) is just "apt-get install gitolite"
<Night-Shade> I was asking to get the point over, I agree with the princples here
<lkcl> Night-Shade: thank you.
* lkcl very relieved that someone else gets it.
<lkcl> finally.
<lkcl> Turl: do you understand the difference now?
<lkcl> phil does "apt-get install gitolite"
<Night-Shade> the key point is that google gains a great deal from our community, but does not release all of the work it builds on top
<Night-Shade> meaning that while they are following the letter of the GPL you can argue they are failing to follow the spirit of it
<Turl> lkcl: and how is that relevant?
<lkcl> github, by contrast, takes git, writes their own PROPRIETARY web front end, gathers information from your login details and login statistics, makes modifications (just as Night-Shade is describing about google groups), DOES NOT contribute them back to the community (because you don't have to redistribute SaaS source)
<lkcl> and so on.
<lkcl> Turl: i would refer you to that fsf document but you don't appear to understand where it's coming from.
<lkcl> Turl: however, Night-Shade does.
<Turl> we can agree on SaaS and how real replacements are better
<Turl> eg how you should not use gmail
<Turl> *cough*
<lkcl> Turl: to describe them as "real" is misleading
<lkcl> Turl: *sigh*. i know. the problem i have there is i have over 45,000 email messages to transfer off of gmail.
<Turl> lkcl: you know google takeout don't you?
<Turl> download all your email as mbox
<lkcl> at some point i'm going to have to bite the bullet...
<lkcl> Turl: ah! thank you!
<Turl> also, you can use any of the hundreds of tools to download from imap and pop
<Night-Shade> the FSF document isn't great and mixes multiple issues together
<lkcl> that will help... but it's going to be one big f****g mbox :)
<jelly-home> lkcl: do you have all 45k in a single folder?
<lkcl> Night-Shade: yes. it is a little confusing. i should probably point this out to Dr Stallman
<Turl> lkcl: 45k is nothing. I've got over 130k on one
<lkcl> jelly-home: yes!
<lkcl> Turl: eek! :)
<Night-Shade> lkcl: use offlineimap even syncs it to maildir format
<jelly-home> Maildir's your friend, not mbox
<Night-Shade> offlineimap does recurive folders etc
<lkcl> Night-Shade: i've heard of that. phil hands recommends it, too.
<Night-Shade> I backup my gmail with it
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<lkcl> hmmmm...
<Night-Shade> yes I have a gmail account
<jelly-home> or imapsync or dovecot's dsync or...
<Night-Shade> offline imap has a fairly good understanding of gmail
<oliv3r> mripard: i ment specifically sun7i
<lkcl> anyway, the point is, Turl: i *do* "get" these software freedom issues (even if i can't clearly explain them satisfactorily)
<Night-Shade> and will do resume etc
<mripard> oliv3r: great then
<lkcl> and i stick to them, regardless of the "pain" it may cause. to do otherwise would be dishonourable and would completely jeapordise everythign i've been working towards.
<Turl> you have a bit of a double standard then
<lkcl> if i start using googlegroups and github proprietary services, then what else should i compromise on?
<lkcl> should i suddenly decide that violating the GPL is ok, as well?
<Turl> you're not compromising when using google groups
<Turl> (unless you use gmail *cough*)
<Turl> :p
<Night-Shade> the key problem for the community here is to provide something as frictionless as gmail/googlegroups/github
<lkcl> Turl: i am slowly working on eliminating the areas where i'm not holding up the standards that i wish to advocate - i know.
<Night-Shade> the stock answer to almost every company wanting to work with the FLOSS community is "release it on github"
<lkcl> Night-Shade: that's very true. but GPL violation is also "frictionless"....
<Turl> lkcl: gmail is a really easy one, considering all the people you just mentioned who will gladly provide you with free services
<lkcl> for the violators.
<Night-Shade> gmail is less of the problem, especially given the snowden documents
<Night-Shade> lawyers add a great deal of friction if applied in the right way
<lkcl> Turl: to be honest i haven't discussed this much in public, so i wasn't aware of the kinds of things like offlineimap and google takeout. now i am, and they sound less painful than i was imagining this to be, i think i'll be converting back to my own domain pretty soon.
<Night-Shade> I have 2 email address, one on gmail that I use for people with "difficult" mail systems
<lkcl> Turl: i already run my own domain (and server). i converted to gmail in 2007 because it was getting seveeerrrely overloaded with spam. thousands of messages a day.
<lkcl> Night-Shade: :)
<Night-Shade> and one that I run myself and have for years that I use all of the time
<Turl> lkcl: if you want to "not compromise" you can email dev@linux-sunxi.org with your patches
<Night-Shade> I sent the first mail from that domain in 1999
<Turl> and a happy exim or something free will take care of your email
<lkcl> host smtp.linux-sunxi.org
<lkcl> telnet smtp.linux-sunxi.org 25
<lkcl> Trying
<lkcl> Connected to smtp.linux-sunxi.org.
<lkcl> Escape character is '^]'.
<lkcl> 220 serv1.zbnet.com.br ESMTP Postfix (Debian/GNU)
<Turl> postfix on debian, feel free to telnet :)
<lkcl> that looks good.
<lkcl> yep - that looks good.
<lkcl> ... so why the fuck is mailman not also being run on that server??
<mnemoc> so you know don't send mails to anyone using a non-free smtp?
<Night-Shade> that's stretching the point, lkcl chooses not to make use of none open services
<lkcl> mnemoc: that would be a little extreme :)
<Night-Shade> for his own use
<Night-Shade> or for projects he is part of
<lkcl> Night-Shade: ... yeah, that's pretty close. i said that the goals of the rhombus tech project involve helping solve the problems surrounding software freedom
<lkcl> GPL-violations being the most prevalent and rampant of those problems
<Turl> lkcl: wanna take a gpl violations case for me?
<Turl> (or violation-wannabe)
<lkcl> Turl: well, inasmuch as i can help by highlighting it on say the gpl-violations list, and/or with the individuals/companies directly, yes, sure
* TheSeven grumbles about mail clients not being able to send patch mails properly
<lkcl> Turl: it does help even more however to be (one of) the Copyright holder(s).
<lkcl> but yes, feel free to email me with the background, i'll see what i can do, ok?
<lkcl> so. mnemoc or jinzo: let's answer your questions, now, ok?
<lkcl> where are we...
* lkcl scrolls back
<jinzo> I would like only one
<Turl> lkcl: there's this android table (and therefore running linux) http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c03993435&cc=us&dlc=en&lc=en
<lkcl> Turl: an android table? :)
<Turl> lkcl: but I cannot find said source code
<jinzo> lkcl, who or what is forcing you to use the linux-sunxi related service
<Turl> tablet*
<Turl> I technically don't have the right to request it as I don't have the hardware or software running
<lkcl> jinzo: that's a loaded question.
<mnemoc> lkcl: btw, are you aware torvalds works using github and not kernel.org?
<Turl> but being big brand name HP, you may know a couple of people to poke
<lkcl> Turl: i'll take a look
<lkcl> mnemoc: hang on, mate, let me answer jinzo. briefly: yes... and he doesn't like rms, either :)
<lkcl> mnemoc: the two go hand-in-hand :)
<mnemoc> that's the magic of git, you can have several remotes
<lkcl> Turl: ... in a mo, but let me deal with these questions first, ok?
<lkcl> jinzo: the question's quite hostile, in itself, and contains several implications which need to be refuted, first (and spending considerable time doing so which could be better spent).
<jinzo> lkcl, then you don't need to bother
<lkcl> jinzo: first - nobody's *forcing* me to use anything.
<jinzo> we're living in a somehow free world
<lkcl> jinzo: i have the intelligence and the skill to not need the resources of the linux-sunxi community. at all. if i were to so choose.
<Turl> lkcl: sure, no hurry
<lkcl> jinzo: in fact, if it wasn't for the rhombus tech initiative, the linux-sunxi community wouldn't actually exist. are you aware of that?
<lkcl> Turl: ack
<jinzo> people can , at least, seemingly do what they want, so why are you in such a dilemma to use a service, you don't want to use
<lkcl> jinzo: you are still using loaded and aggressive questions, which need to have time and energy spent on refuting the misconceptions
<lkcl> jinzo: i am not in a dilemma
<lkcl> jinzo: you are making assumptions about what i want. you haven't even asked what i want
<lkcl> jinzo: would you be interested to hear what i want? or does it serve your interests - is it more useful to you - to maintain illusions and assumptions?
<jinzo> it's clear you want to use the linux-sunxi services, because they bother you
<lkcl> jinzo: again, you have made an assumption.
<jinzo> or, then let's hear what you want then?
<lkcl> jinzo: and, you have also assumed that i am bothered.
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<lkcl> jinzo: it's very simple. i would like to see the goals outlined on the top of the rhombus-tech.net web site fulfilled.
<lkcl> that's it.
<lkcl> that's all.
<jinzo> lkcl, and - as you said, or did I understand it wrong - that you can do it by yourself and that you have the knowledge to do? (looking up the quote)
<lkcl> jinzo: when i said that, do you understand that i did not say "i DEMAND those goals be fulfilled"?
<jinzo> there we go, "i have the intelligence and the skill to not need the resources of the linux-sunxi community. at all. if i were to so choose."
<jinzo> so, why do you choose to use proprietary services?
<jinzo> and how does choosing lead to ranting about an option you don't wish to choose?
<lkcl> jinzo: that's correct. i can. have you heard the children's story - i apologise for using a children's story as an example - it goes "who will help me to make this cake"? (i think it's a cake...)
<lkcl> jinzo: give me one second, ok? let me answer the question before you ask some more, ok?
<lkcl> the story goes "not i said the fox". "not i said the... {whatever}".
<lkcl> then at the end, the question is asked, "who will help me _eat_ this cake?"
<jinzo> lkcl, sorry I'm in a hurry actually. And I actually got at least part of the anwsers I was looking for
<lkcl> and of course, as you'd expect, all the animals go "me! me!"
<jinzo> and that's quite a good haul.
<lkcl> jinzo: apologies. there's a lot of misunderstandings here which need to be cleared up
<Turl> mmm cake
<lkcl> much of it's because i too make assumptions that people will understand and respect the principles by which i lead and live projects i'm involved in. once i've said i will do something, i *will* do it.
<lkcl> i then invite other people to help.
<lkcl> if they help, _great_!
<lkcl> if they don't... that's ok too.
<lkcl> but along the way, if i set some principles as part of the goal, i FUCKING WELL WILL NOT compromise on those principles.
<lkcl> because to do so would completely and utterly destroy the whole purpose of the goals.
<lkcl> bottom line: *how* the goals are achieved is, to me, *just* as important as achieving them.
<mnemoc> it's great that you and your company have such nice principles, but why do you intend to impose them to very developer of this community?
<jinzo> I do realize that.
<lkcl> jinzo: i'm very grateful that you said that
<lkcl> mnemoc: you misunderstand. there is no imposition. this is something that you may not have spotted because people did not relay it to you from what they read off of arm-netbooks.
<jinzo> and I actually support it, but as it was already pointed out we have different "lines" on what actually hinders our openess/principles.
<rellla> hno, is this correct, when https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/wiki mentions to use if=u-boot.bin and if=u-boot.img os is it just a typo?
<lkcl> mnemoc: what i've *actually* said is that if there is no communications path which is available to me that respects software freedom, then rather than compromise on the principles, i simply will not communicate... or will use the paths that *are* available
<lkcl> (such as the one that Turl just advised - which i wasn't previously aware of - dev@linux-sunxi.org)
<libv> lkcl: what search engine do you use?
<lkcl> i'd previously been using #linux-sunxi irc but it was demonstrated to be ineffective (out of sample of 1) for communicating patches.
<rellla> also, sunxi-nightly is building u-boot.bin
<lkcl> libv: don't start :) yes i use google.co.uk. do you know of any software-libre search engines that replicate google's search capabilities for effectiveness? i don't... *sigh*. would you recommend bing instead? :)
<Turl> rellla: some time ago uboot moved formats and the instructions changed
<Turl> lkcl: you can use ddg, but the results suck a bit imo
<libv> lkcl: so once mnemoc and oliv3r have done all this work, what will your complaint be then?
<Night-Shade> isn't ddg just a reskin of google, I've not look at it for a while
<lkcl> Turl: *sigh* yeah. i'm a pragmatist. i have to make some decisions that make me uncomfortable. but, i use gmail for *private* searches... not as part of a software-libre project. Night-Shade put it best.
<Turl> Night-Shade: I believe they do their own indexing, or maybe use the russian google's one
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<lkcl> libv: you misunderstand. i have no "complaints". i have goals. i am really quite pathological about this, in ways that genuinely confuses the crap out of people :)
<libv> lkcl: ok, let me rephrase that then...
<lkcl> if the goal that mnemoc and oliv3r set for themselves *happens* to coincide with one of the goals that i have set, then i will celebrate, not complain!
<Night-Shade> I acutally like my 10gb of maildir mail, I can search it with find and grep
<libv> lkcl: so once mnemoc and oliv3r have done all this work, what will your goal be then?
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<lkcl> Night-Shade: that's what i loved about mutt.
<lkcl> libv: well, that depends on what remains of the subset between their goals and mine.
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<Night-Shade> find ./Maildir -mtime -7 -print0| xargs -0 grep -l <string>
<lkcl> libv: i will then track and complete any remaining work
<Night-Shade> searches all my mail for the last 7 days, it's really quite fast too
* lkcl used to have over 200 files in mutt
<libv> lkcl: how many persons require gitorious and a mailinglist that's run on fully free software?
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<libv> lkcl: how will this so massively help contributions to linux-sunxi.org?
<KBme> a mailing list and forum are no replacement for a source repository and bugtracker. they might complement them.
<lkcl> libv: if, by then, the goals i have set are entirely fulfilled, i will then go "hooray" and will move on to the next project that i have set for myself (it's nothing to do with free software).
<mnemoc> for someone using a @gmail.com it's pretty to not want to send mails to a free software project because their ML is hosted by Google
<lkcl> after that, the next one.
<libv> lkcl: so after having given oliv3r and mnemoc a lot of hassle, you will basically lose interest and wander off?
<mnemoc> s/pretty/pretty odd/
<lkcl> mnemoc: i know. i'll deal with that. i don't want to, because it's a pain, but you're right - i do have to.
<lkcl> libv: just like it is a "lot of hassle" for me to convert 45,000 emails off of gmail?
<Night-Shade> rehosting a single person != rehosting a whole project
<lkcl> libv: i have given them no "hassle".
<libv> lkcl: again, how will oliv3r and mnemoc doing all this work, how will that help linux-sunxi.org?
<lkcl> libv: to what work are you referring?
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<libv> wouldn't their time better been spent on sunxi software?
<mnemoc> there are real technical reasons against google groups, as there are technical reasons to want mirrors of our repos outside github.com
<lkcl> libv: (it's an important question to make sure we're on the same page)
<libv> lkcl: moving repos to gitorious and moving the ml off of google.
<lkcl> libv: if they had talked about this _before_ setting up using github and googlegroups, then there would be no "hassle", would there?
<libv> lkcl: i just understood that you would just bugger off after you've gotten that.
<mnemoc> doing these changes it not related to anyone fundamentalist desires.
<libv> lkcl: talked yes, but there was only one person who ever complained about either
<lkcl> because any one of half a dozen people would have volunteered *and* helped them out, and would in fact have made their lives *easier* not harder!
<lkcl> by being the main sysadmins for those tasks!
<libv> lkcl: point such persons out please.
<lkcl> libv: ah. RIGHT. ok, i think i understand
<Night-Shade> there are also real social goals to using hosting / SaaS systems that embody the opensource princles in both letter and spirit
<libv> lkcl: it's like allowing C++ code in gcc.
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<lkcl> libv: i've mentioned them before - phil hands, alain williams, they are two whose services i would have helped broker / advocate / recommend. they would almost certainly immediately say "yes" but of course i cannot speak for them
<lkcl> Night-Shade: exactly. EXACTLY.
<mnemoc> lkcl: does alain williams hosts mailing lists with custom domains now?
<lkcl> libv: ok, so let me get this assumption that you've made clear. what you're assuming is this:
<libv> lkcl: people whined and whined, and then it finally was accepted because the most relentless whine was "it will bring in more contributors", which is impossible to reason against, and then all the extra contributions they got was some idiot converting C code into C++
<lkcl> mnemoc: YES!
<lkcl> mnemoc: as does phil
<rellla> Turl: but we should have used and should use u-boot.img iirc!? just seek=40 changed?
<lkcl> mnemoc: and so do i!
<lkcl> mnemoc: all three of us run virtual hosts and entire servers. i'm sure that more could be found if we asked / looked around.
<lkcl> libv: so what you're assuming is that if mnemoc and oliv3r were to convert the sunxi community infrastructure over to entirely software-libre services where the source code of each services was entirely freely available, that i would, and i quote, "bugger off"?
<lkcl> libv: do i have that correct? :)
<libv> 22:22 < lkcl> libv: if, by then, the goals i have set are entirely fulfilled, i will then go "hooray" and will move on to the next project that i have set for myself (it's nothing to do with free software).
<lkcl> libv: ah - then you misunderstood, i apologise. i had previously mentioned that there may be a venn diagram of overlapping goals.
<Turl> rellla: I don't remember really. But you can't go wrong using u-boot-blahblah-with-spl :)
<Turl> rellla: there's instructions for that one
<lkcl> libv: but the reality is more complex than that: it's "conditional" venn-diagrams.
<libv> lkcl: this was an answer to 22:19 < libv> lkcl: so once mnemoc and oliv3r have done all this work, what will your goal be then?
<rellla> Turl, i know. Just waiting for hno, because i think instructions are mistyped...
<lkcl> libv: let me be more clear and specific: *if* oliv3r and mnemoc *were* to convert to entirely software-libre infrastructure for sunxi, then it would so happen that the communications channels available to me would, far from being restricted, actually open up
<KBme> rellla, dd if=u-boot-sunxi-with-spl.bin of="$DISK" bs=1024 seek=8 #worksforme
<lkcl> _such that_, far from "buggering off", i would in fact be able to work *with* them much easier
<KBme> at least as far as u-boot is concerned, and for cubie*
<KBme> installation to uSD card
<rellla> KBme: i have no problems with u-boot so far. just not agree with the wiki.
<lkcl> _such that_, those sub-goals which i have identified as being "shared" between theirs and my own, would, in fact be easier and quicker to accomplish.
<libv> lkcl: why is all of this boiling over just now? we put this channel name in the #arm-netbook topic in february
<rellla> i HAVE problems with my cubietruck. can't get it working stable :( http://paste.debian.net/70049/
<rellla> it's oopsing randomly.
<KBme> rellla, me too. I don't think the kernel is stable at all.
<KBme> I have just wasted 2 weeks trying to figure it out, but I finally gave up. I think the kernel is not ready yet.
<lkcl> libv: if, on the other hand, during the time in which they happened to be working on proprietary software-services [that limited my communications], then i would remain in the inconvenient (but acceptable to me, because of my goals including principles) position of having to "monitor" what they were doing
<lkcl> patching their work independently...
<Night-Shade> which kernel KBme and rellla ?
<Turl> Unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at virtual address 0000000c
<lkcl> ... not being able to conveniently notify them of those patches....
<Turl> ugly null pointers for structs yay
<lkcl> .... maintaining separate repos and them having to do the "git pulls" from those ...
<lkcl> etc. etc.
<KBme> Night-Shade, I using linux-sunxi/linux-sunxi stage/sunxi-3.4
<rellla> Night-Shade: latest stage/sunxi-3.4
<KBme> yup
<libv> lkcl: i guess this will only be able to be measured afterwards.
<Turl> what compiler are you guys using?
<lkcl> libv: good question. because it hasn't really been properly discussed.
<rellla> Turl, hm lets see ...
<libv> lkcl: what hasn't been properly discussed, the fact that this irc channel was created?
<lkcl> libv: and because there was an "alert" in xchat in which someone mis-represented and mis-informed mnemoc.
<libv> also, i think mnemoc set up the server much much earlier, same for the mailinglist
<libv> and it all grew so much that we eventually did decide to no longer clutter up #arm-netbook
<lkcl> and, as i respect mnemoc and oliv3r, it was a massive alarm bell to me, so i figured it was time some of the misunderstandings were cleared up.
<rellla> Turl: 4.7.2 from emdebian
<lkcl> libv: yes. #arm-netbook (ok, the rhombus tech project) is really a "meta-project".
<mnemoc> i don't own the linux-sunxi community
<Turl> rellla: can you try with a 4.6 one?
<lkcl> that was a sensible decision
<Turl> KBme: ^ same
<mnemoc> neither does rhombus-tech
<KBme> oh?
<lkcl> mnemoc: you're one of its main representatives. it's... a waffly-distinction that you have to get used to. been there :)
* rellla is looking @ emdebian.org
<libv> ml is like late october
<KBme> Turl, interesting. silly I didn't try before, I guess
<Turl> rellla: you can get binaries from linaro if you don't have one there
<lkcl> libv: so, for example, i keep an eye on the linux-rockchip IRC channel from time-to-time as well. because i was looking at doing an EOMA68 rockchip CPU Card.
<lkcl> and the ingenic linux channel as well, ditto
<KBme> well, it's sorry state, but I've used up the time I had to port our project to ct, we're probably going to stick with the friggin RPi
<lkcl> and so on.
<Turl> KBme: what project is that?
<rellla> Turl: thanks, i'll look into it tomorrow.
<lkcl> so the linux-sunxi irc channel is _good_! it's *good* that the community's separate.
<Turl> (just out of curiosity)
<KBme> Turl, porting OpenELEC to ct
<KBme> I am working on a project that uses OpenELEC
<Night-Shade> libv and lkcl read KBme comment that's why sorting out sunxi matters
<Turl> oh
<lkcl> ok. anyway. enough. it's pretty late here, and the temperature's dropped considerably. have to warm up, i'm getting RSI.
<KBme> (it's a proprietary project, but the port would've been public)
<Night-Shade> otherwise we will end up as the Rpi being the one true linux on arm project
<lkcl> Night-Shade: sorry, i wasn't paying attention. was focussing on answering libv. what's the issue? (in a nutshell)... also let me get my coat... freezing
<lkcl> brb
<Turl> lkcl: totally OT; but did you know that the rpi foundation is distributing mathematica now?
<KBme> well, I have one more day. If I manage to make it work tomorrow we might still use ct. but I have not much hope of making openelec+xbmc+cedar work in one day.
<Night-Shade> RPi, neat idea propriety hardware an argument that is rehashed endlessly on various mailing lists
<KBme> Turl, thanks for the pointer
<lkcl> Turl: really! how... odd!
<Night-Shade> however as KBme has just noted the whole linux on arm scene other than RPi is a badly documented mess
<KBme> it's pretty horrid. true dat.
<Turl> the comments are priceless too
<Night-Shade> I have a couple of Pi's a kirkwood running pure debian and a cubietruck, I'm not a coder but a sysadmin and I can figure stuff out
<Night-Shade> but the whole linux arm scene, gah!
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<lkcl> Night-Shade: you're aware of the reasons why, right?
<Night-Shade> oh yes indeed
<Night-Shade> property video core, only way to make it cheap and work with video fast
<lkcl> Turl: "Today, at the CBM education summit in New York, we announced a partnership with Wolfram Research to bundle a free copy of Mathematica and the Wolfram Language into future Raspbian images." wow
<Night-Shade> not a thing I care about but others seem to
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<mnemoc> oliv3r: ping
<lkcl> Night-Shade: it's more fundamental than that. a) there's no BIOS in the ARM world. attempts to create one would be utterly futile because the SoCs revolve around "embedded", *not* around "PC Architecture" [northbridge/southbridge]
<libv> lkcl: something useful now, who figured out the headers on the mele a1000 board on http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/hacking_the_mele_a1000/
<jelly-home> but a common API for device enumeration would be immensely useful
<libv> i do not seem to be able to find a history of that page
<lkcl> b) there's no common standards around GPIO (like there is for e.g. USB buses)
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<Night-Shade> yeah I'm on debian-arm so I've seen the whole device tree arguement
<lkcl> libv: gimme a sec to look...
<libv> lkcl: did you take a multimeter to the a1000?
<libv> lkcl: or was that hno or even someone else?
<lkcl> libv: someone else did - i could find the commit but it may be someone from the web interface
<libv> ah, ok, then there is no chance in picking this persons brain
<lkcl> libv: it wasn't me though! i don't even have an a1000! :)
<libv> lkcl: ok, thanks
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<mnemoc> and what does the mele a1000 have to do with the eoma68-a10?
<lkcl> libv: mmm... maybe...
* libv goes off to write a gpio testing tool
<lkcl> mnemoc: it was the de-facto dev-kit. if you recall, we were trying to get allwinner / wits to reduce the cost of the EVB to something that everyone could afford.
<libv> the ddc lines of vga of the mele are wired up into the connector on the board, but i cannot track anything further
<libv> and it is not TWI1/2 like on the cubietruck
<lkcl> mnemoc: then someone mentioned the mele a1000. tom happened to know some "fell of the back of a lorry" units - he had a friend at Mele - and he went off and bought some
<mnemoc> lkcl: yes, I do remember. I was one of the first in buying a mele and who pushed tom into selling them
<lkcl> mnemoc: that then became, de-facto and completely by accident, the "dev kit" that everyone used, which kicked off the whole project
<lkcl> awesome!
<lkcl> mnemoc: yay!
<mnemoc> lkcl: I only mean that page does not belong in rt's wiki
<lkcl> i didn't know that. will add that to the bit of folk-lore.
<mnemoc> because it's not about a rt project or product
<lkcl> mnemoc: it's been there since before linux-sunxi's wiki existed.
<mnemoc> true
<lkcl> mnemoc: if you recall, at the time, we didn't have anywhere else. so it was simply the most convenient place to have... _something_.
<lkcl> and i've left it up there.
<mnemoc> and to SAVE your companies' wiki to be flooded by unrelated content the other wiki was created
<mnemoc> same with the mailing list. the arm-netbook mailing list started to become the any-random-A10-based-device support list
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<lkcl> well... i was happy it was being used. perhaps you should have asked if i was happy for it to be used, yeah?
<Night-Shade> an overview presentation about the eoma68 http://elinux.org/images/9/9e/Eoma68.pdf
<mnemoc> relegating the eoma68 into third class
<lkcl> mnemoc: yes. it's paradoxical. i'm happy that sunxi has its own community (in a similar way that linux-rockchip does, and the linux ingenic / jz4xxx one does)
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<Night-Shade> do you not think that we should move to being all linux on arm?
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<lkcl> but at the same time i recall the pit-sinking feeling i felt in my stomach when i saw the first mention of the *existence* of the sunxi wiki and sunxi mailing list... *months* after it had started.
<Night-Shade> rather than being something like, linux on intel CPUs, linux on IBM servers and that sort of thing?
* mnemoc fears ARM's world domination even more than Intel's
<Night-Shade> I'm very much from the x86 world, you assume that linux will boot on just about anything made in the lst 10 years
<lkcl> mnemoc: i really _really_ had absolutely no clue! it felt like betrayal, that i'd set up resources for people to use, and... anyway.
<libv> lkcl: would you rather have seen big announcements stating "Hey all, let's leave lkcl alone and go and play on linux-sunxi everything from now!"?
<mnemoc> lkcl: you were just too busy, but the wiki and the mailing lists were all publicly discussed on IRC
<libv> lkcl: it just happened because it was a necessary change, and if there had been a lot of noise about it, you would've been even unhappier today
<mnemoc> libv: most of us are in #arm-netbook and in the arm-netbook mailing list
<mnemoc> err
<mnemoc> lkcl: most of us are in #arm-netbook and in the arm-netbook mailing list
<lkcl> mnemoc: i didn't see any of the IRC messages. not one. if they didn't have my name in them, xchat wouldn't have flagged it up in "blue", so i wouldn't have seen them. at all!
<libv> lkcl: perhaps this was exactly the problem with #arm-netbook
<lkcl> on the other hand, i read *every* email on arm-netbooks@lists.phcomp.co.uk - without fail.
<libv> lkcl: way too much irrelevant stuff going on so that you couldn't possibly dream of reading its backlog
<lkcl> libv: i was used to the rules i'd followed on #htc-linux.
<lkcl> anyway.
<lkcl> other topics....
<lkcl> Night-Shade: welll.... it may end up happening "by default". purely based on cost decisions.
<lkcl> Night-Shade: this jumps into the middle of a discussion, might help (or might not!)
<libv> lkcl: you use linkedin?
<lkcl> ahh... ahh... he's removed the bloody comment!
<libv> i really fail to grasp all of this. github as a public place to store git repos, or googlegroups as an easily accessible public mailinglist... that's wrong
<lkcl> libv: for the business contacts, yes. don't start :)
<libv> but it's perfectly fine to use gmail, linkedin, ...
<Night-Shade> in the same way I have been offered and turned down jobs in certain industries I disagree with
<libv> lkcl: the other two bits are public and can be freely used and seen by anyone, yet they are the problem
<lkcl> libv: *sigh*. Night-Shade's insights best explained it. are we using linkedin to manage free software?
<lkcl> no.
<libv> it's a public ml, it's just a conduit
<libv> and it's github, it's just a conduit as well
<lkcl> would i *recommend* the use of linkedin for the management, communication and interaction between software libre project members? fuck no!
<Night-Shade> It's the difference between hard rules and asperational goals
<libv> entrusting your emails to google or your full business network to linkedin, that's fine?
<Night-Shade> I will not work in certain industries but I do use closed source software in my day job for certain tasks
<libv> but the public bits, that's not fine?
<libv> gah.
<lkcl> libv: the difference is - and i appreciate it's a fine distinction - is that i am using linkedin for *personal* use, *not* for the prominent management of software libre projects
<Night-Shade> being able to choose not use to google is a choice, is there a viable alterative to linkedin?
<lkcl> Night-Shade: or, more specifically, in the *business contacts* world, is there a viable alternative to linkedin?
<libv> lkcl: but the management lives in here, and on the website
<libv> the other two parts could get switched out easily, when needs be, but it is pointless to do so beforehand, and even more pointless to double up
<mnemoc> mails are on everyone's mailbox, and in the gmane archive. code lives on every git clone and on every fork on many different hosting services
<lkcl> libv: we cannot be as strict as rms would like. we have to make pragmatic decisions.
<lkcl> mnemoc: and gmane has a web interface that allows you to reply (online) and it actually respects the thread "Reply-to"
<libv> lkcl: ?
<mnemoc> yes
<mnemoc> also nntp
<libv> is gmame fully open source?
<libv> gmane even
<lkcl> so it doesn't bugger up the mailing list that it's semi-two-way-subscribed to. very neat.
<lkcl> libv: to be honest i don't really know!
<lkcl> i never thought about it... hmmm....
* lkcl goes off to investigate...
<libv> *facepalm*
<libv> lkcl: don't you have like _real_ things to do?
<mnemoc> google provides a nice service with great spam control. github provides free and fast hosting for repositories that consume a lot of bandwidth
<mnemoc> but we aren't enslaved by either
<libv> you can subscribe to the google ml by mailing to it
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<libv> and you can just use a url to clone from github
<lkcl> http://search.gmane.org: "The source code for this search is available, licensed under the GPL."
<lkcl> cool!
<lkcl> libv: evidently not... :)
<lkcl> one of them is, very shortly, "sleep".
<mnemoc> lkcl: ----^
<libv> the amount of actual exposure to non-free software really is unbelievably small
<libv> many orders of magnitude smaller than using gmail or linkedin
<lkcl> libv: but the project isn't managed through or by gmail or linkedin, is it?
<Night-Shade> but it's there and lkcl can choose not to use it, that is a choice and he has offered alternatives
<lkcl> is the forum for linux-sunxi hosted on linkedin?
<libv> lkcl: do you see google or linkedin managing anything?
<mnemoc> lkcl: the project is managed here on irc
<libv> err, s/linkedin/github/
<lkcl> is the mailing list hosted on gmail?
<libv> lkcl: googlegroups and github are nothing more than conduits.
<lkcl> libv: ok. i'm sorry, i'm going to have to leave this for now.
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<lkcl> i'd like to make it clearer, but it's been an entire evening already.
<libv> lkcl: i doubt that i will be able to follow you, no matter how hard you try
<libv> lkcl: this logic of yours just doesn't work for me.
<lkcl> mnemoc: i think we understand where we both stand. i also really appreciate - and didn't know - that you were endeavouring to save resources on rhombus-tech.
<lkcl> libv: that's a good thing, trust me :)
<mnemoc> lkcl: to save eoma68 for been eaten by allwinner-specifics
<lkcl> libv: i'm just really not good at explaining these kinds of complex issues and distinctions to people. i understand them myself, and, because i understand them, i follow them. the logic *is* consistent, and yes there are areas where i'm falling down: i'm acutely aware of *some* of them
<lkcl> mnemoc: thank you :)
<mnemoc> lkcl: and to give us a place where to be the main actors. eoma68 is by definition SoC-agnostic
<mnemoc> lkcl: while we are board/vendor-agnositc
<Night-Shade> now I understand what eoma68 is it's quite interesting
<libv> mnemoc: or try to be, this upstreaming drive is fully dependent on those few development boards, and cuts everyone off on random android devices :)
<lkcl> mnemoc: indeed. and, whilst there's only one EOMA68 CPU Card (or using only one SoC vendor), there are still areas which need to be sorted that are harder *because* there is no other hardware to compare / distinguish from.
<Night-Shade> it's a packaging system that seperates the SoC from the supporting connectors, very much like the x86 world
<lkcl> ... but that will happen. we will get a subdirectory bus/eoma68 in the linux kernel source tree and another called lib/eoma and it will become clearer :)
<Night-Shade> just a tip lkcl, make sure that when you are telling people about it you like to something with pictures and diagrams as well as words
<Night-Shade> learn from kickstarter
<lkcl> Night-Shade: it also solves the linux kernel hell of device development by reducing an "N product design types" *times* "M SoCs" to an "N product design types" *plus* "M SoCs based around CPU Cards"
<Night-Shade> indeed
<Night-Shade> link even
<lkcl> Night-Shade: good point. it's time to move from "developer-driven" focus to "social network" focus... blegh but needed... :)
<lkcl> ok enought!
<lkcl> gotta go.
<lkcl> thank you everyone. and sorry for taking up so much time.
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<deasy> yup arokux , are you here :)
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<mnemoc> git clone git://git.linux-sunxi.org/sunxi-tools.git !
<mnemoc> no http yet. mirrors updated each 5 minutes
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<mnemoc> git clone git://git.sunxi.org/sunxi-tools.git works too
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<mnemoc> and `rsync rsync://sunxi.org/dl` works too
<mnemoc> same as `rsync rsync://dl.linux-sunxi.org/dl`
<mnemoc> hope to finish https://git.linux-sunxi.org (cgit) tomorrow
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<libv> mnemoc: :)
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<mnemoc> good night ;-)
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<libv> night :)
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