sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<rgrant>
kanzure: (and other Satoshi Roundtable participants) can you from memory/grep recall anyone asking for specific technical reasons why the recent HK proposal couldn't work for other participants in the room at the Satoshi Roundtable?
<kanzure>
this is not a wizardly topic
<rgrant>
so be it. then mention your notes here no more.
<kanzure>
hmm
<kanzure>
well anyway, no specific technical reasons other than things like "needs to be a compromise where they feel like they are doing something truly bad" and "timeliness"
<rgrant>
(is there a better place to ask?)
<rgrant>
clarificaiton: was asking about coverage and reasons, not for named participants.
<rgrant>
anyway.
<fluffypony>
coverage and reasons?
<fluffypony>
rgrant: pm me and we can chat about it
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<wallet421>
is it possible to mark a transaction as INVALID if it has not been included into a block until height X?
<yoleaux>
Inverse of nlocktime -- OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY related question
<nsh>
'You are looking for nLastTime, which I have been assured will never be accepted into Bitcoin core because people don't want to deal with legitimate transactions (ie, not depending on a deliberate double spend) becoming undone in the event of a reorg. '
<nsh>
(however, people are being a little bit lazy in saying it's not possible due to the re-org consequences. they could be bounded or made to decay with other transaction rules, but it would certainly be a nontrivial departure from the current validity consensus)
<nsh>
(maybe in a sidechain/whatever...)
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<Taek>
nsh: what if you were to put a confirmation limit on being able to spend the coins/
<Taek>
Similar to how miners can't spend their coins for 80 blocks, you could have OP_BLOCKNUMBER create outputs that weren't spendable for 80 confirmations
<Taek>
it does seem to me like op_blocknumber would have a lot of uses. One obvious one is that you could guarantee a transaction wouldn't get stuck in a mempool abyss and potentially spent 3 months later
<bsm117532>
Taek: I'm actually pretty worried about that as fee pressure goes up. It's not at all obvious to me that fee pressures will actually reduce the demand for transactions. And as you say, something could sit in the mempool for a very long time.
<Taek>
fee pressure will absolutely reduce the demand for transactions. 90% of my transactions are worth less than 1btc, if the fee goes above that I'll become very frugal with my transactions
<Taek>
joinmarket would become out of the question
<Taek>
so, the real question is whether fees would go to 10 cents, $1, or $50, because I don't think they would go much hire than the price of a wire transfer any time soon
<bsm117532>
But that fee pressure doesn't make low-fee transactions go away, as you point out.
<Taek>
*higher
<Taek>
0.12 throws out low fee transactions once the mempool hits 300MB I believe
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<Taek>
oh
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<Taek>
someone could maliciously hold on to transactions forever
<Taek>
and then paste them years later
<instagibbs>
Taek, you're talking about the opposite of nlocktime?
<instagibbs>
err CLTV I guess
<Taek>
instagibbs: yeah, nsh and wallet421 were talking about it above
<bsm117532>
Taek: why? To collect the low transaction fees once the block size goes up and the fees go down?
<instagibbs>
bram has mused about it quite a bit
<Taek>
bsm117532: maybe he's just an asshole
<Taek>
(bbiab)
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<bsm117532>
hahaaa
<instagibbs>
if it's free to do, expect it to happen :P
<bsm117532>
Transactions in limbo is a really crappy situation for a fast settlement system. It's quite difficult for the sender to know his transaction is in limbo too...
<fluffypony>
it's an interesting thought, although I suspect that the chances of the utxo's for that tx not being spent years later is pretty low
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<kanzure>
are there any solutions for transaction size estimation before signing? knowing the transaction size would be helpful for figuring out what fee to apply to the transaction.
<kanzure>
additionally, requiring multiple rounds of signing (because of getting the size estimation wrong) is contrary to high-security signing procedures (e.g. the signing procedure has to be made easier to facilitate multiple rounds if your size estimation was wrong)
<fluffypony>
kanzure: brute force is the only way I can think of, as virtually any change can push it over the next kb boundary
<fluffypony>
unless we accept that guesstimating is fine and we may be out by a kb
<kanzure>
that's a frightening answer. that basically eliminates any possibility of any sign-only-once protocols...
<kanzure>
perhaps another solution is to pad signatures up to a certain minimum size :D
<fluffypony>
lol
<aj>
kanzure: each signature adds about 70 bytes, an extra p2pkh input (including signature) adds about 146 bytes
<kanzure>
thanks.
<Taek>
"over the next kb boundary" ? what is that?
<aj>
fluffypony: using kB boundaries to change your fee is a pretty bad idea for most transactions (ie in the 200-800 byte range)
<fluffypony>
yeah
<aj>
kanzure: removing change saves about 34 bytes
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<Eliel>
kanzure: it's solvable, just require padding so signatures are always the same length. Which is actually unnecessary, because you can just calculate the fee for the worst case that's a few bytes bigger than the normal case.
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<kanzure>
are wallets currently calculating the worst case signature sizes?
<Eliel>
kanzure: all I can say is that bitcoinj fee calculation code was complex enough that I didn't feel like trying to figure it out.
<Eliel>
I did figure out that it's an iterative process though.
<aj>
Eliel: bitcoinj does per-kB fees rather than per-byte still, i think, so it's not a good example anyway...
<Eliel>
yes, I think that's part of the reason it was so complex.
<Taek>
my wallet gives an exact number of bytes before I sign
<Taek>
bitcoin-qt
<Taek>
I'm guessing it assumes worst-case
<Taek>
size is almost always 225b
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<kanzure>
petertodd: what are your thoughts regarding transaction capacity limitations of coin age staking?
<kanzure>
e.g. there are 16 million utxos or something
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<petertodd>
kanzure: most of those utxos are insignificant dust
<petertodd>
kanzure: 35,122,599 utxos
<kanzure>
wouldn't it be conceivably possible to ignore someone's "dust" despite them having large infrastructure?
<kanzure>
oops how did i miscount utxos?? geeze.
<petertodd>
it's a coin-age-destroyed vote - dust is irrelevant in comparison to bigger utxos
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<kanzure>
(please consider not calling these votes)
<petertodd>
kanzure: no, they're votes
<kanzure>
that's problematic because then you need to define processes around ballot creation etc... and ballot options... and then you need to figure out what voting scheme you are selecting.
<petertodd>
kanzure: like it or not, coin-age destroyed triggered blocksize increases are very much a vote about the future of the system
<petertodd>
kanzure: none of that's all that hard - it'll end up in some bip with source code, likely with one or two bits basically just being 'ready/for' or 'not-ready/against'
<kanzure>
and what does it mean for someone to abstain from "voting" but still making a transaction anyway? i don't think it makes sense to make it about voting.
<petertodd>
kanzure: you can't *not* make it about voting - that's the political effect either way
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<columbo>
Question -- I have a transaction that's not yet signed. I want to create another transaction that spends this one (part of a larger protocol). Can I do this? In other words, does the transaction output hash include the signature?
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<columbo>
or can you reference an unsigned transaction?
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<instagibbs>
columbo, #bitcoin maybe
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<columbo>
does anyone know for sure?
<instagibbs>
not the right channel for this, is what I mean
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