sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Eliel_>
bsm1175321: requiring parent beads to not have conflicting transactions seems to me to incentivize miners to use some kind of an identity based fast consensus algorithm to avoid mining conflicting transactions at all.
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<bsm1175321>
Eliel_: That's coming anyway with mempool synchronization/weak blocks/IBLT. But the orphan problem is fundamental and they will still occur. Another approach is to mine every transaction individually. There's no reason we should relay (for free!) transactions so someone else can profit off them. Hashcash was originally imagined as a barrier to entry to stop spam, and we can move it back to the tx submission po
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<bsm1175321>
Discarding free p2p relay of transactions is a pretty deep change to the structure of Bitcoin though. But I think probably a very good one -- there's no reason the protocol should enable mining centralization. (But no way to prevent others from creating relay networks outside bitcoind itself)
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<roidster>
bsm1175321: Are there significant advantages to one person one full node?
<bsm1175321>
roidster: Protoplasm is not cryptographically identifiable. So, that's a pipe dream at best.
<roidster>
bsm1175321: Is it not possible for every handheld computer er a "smartphone" to be equiped with 128gb chip & 35gh/s ?
<bsm1175321>
It is...what's your point?
<bsm1175321>
Errr...rather that's my point above regarding mining at transaction submission. Put mining chips in cell phones. It won't match what centralized mining can do by a long shot, but should be an effective form of spam control.
<roidster>
bsm1175321: That was where I was going. Seems to be an excellent form of DDoS
<roidster>
^End to DDoS
<bsm1175321>
That was the original hashcash idea. unfortunately it got turned into a crypto-currency.
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<roidster>
bsm1175321: At current capacity of 1,042,003,037 GH/s if 29,771,515 (fewer than the good citizens of Calif.) handhelds had 35
<roidster>
Gh/s they would dominate the network field.
<bsm1175321>
They wouldn't be operating continuously though. Maybe a few seconds/minutes at a time or it would burn your battery.
<roidster>
Raising it 2 orders of magintude would dominate. Are there any saleable advantages to this type of activity?
<bsm1175321>
Well pay-your-own-tx fees is one...
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<bsm1175321>
It's not a saleable advantage until a crypto-currency is established that can take advantage of it
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<roidster>
Yes I had thta duiscussion on #bitcoin moments ago. There is one problem with scaling. That is with "fees". Currently acceptable minimum is 0.001BTC correct?
<roidster>
^that
<roidster>
If so, BTC is up againist an unacceptable scaling price barrier with miner fees as BTC>$100K. The minimum fee would inflate to a minimum of $1.
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<roidster>
That might make a buyer of a cup of joe think twice about using BTC for payment channel.
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<MRL-Relay>
[smooth] you can work out the economics of battery capcity in reverse. it costs about 1/10 of a cent to charge a battery so to match the current 1 million usd per day in mining energy use would require a billion cell phones draining their battery daily
<MRL-Relay>
[smooth] (very rough numbers)
<roidster>
MRL-Relay: And how many handhelds are the now?
<aj>
roidster: minrelaytx is 5000 satoshi/kB, so 0.00005, which would be $5/kB or ~$1/transaction if BTC was $100k USD/BTC; 0.12 is taking the default back down to 1000 satoshi, though. and it's relay policy not consensus, so can just be decreased down to ~10 satoshi as the price increases
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<bsm1175321>
I hate having these hard coded numbers in the system...
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<roidster>
Such language from a CTO...uhhhh? ;-)
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<instagibbs>
I literally lol'd at the hour thing
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<adam3us>
so a few days ago we were talking about ext-blocks vs hard-forks. several people say that ext-blocks are worse. could they explain by what principle / reason / argument. i do see non-optin SPV risk if one's fullnode doesnt have the bandwidth to validate the extension. but if the ext-block is 2MB and the HF would be 2MB also - is there a difference?
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<Eliel_>
adam3us: If there is, I can't guess at what it is.
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<silvaedium>
yer a wizard harry!
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<Eliel_>
adam3us: I do know that many people would actually want both SW and 2MB HF, though. Many think SW will be too little too late.
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<Luke-Jr>
Eliel_: it doesn't make sense to do both, and SW will likely be far earlier than any HF *could* be
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<kanzure>
adam3us: they seem unwilling to elaborate in public.
<PeterR>
Adam, for me it's (at least) two reasons:
<PeterR>
#1. Extension blocks change the data structures in such a way that SPV nodes and other wallets would need to make compatible changes. Simply changing the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant is very simple in comparison.
<PeterR>
#2. At least for the segwit proposal, block space in the segwit "extension block" is discounted by a factor of 4X--which seems like a "central plannerish" way to set prices.
<adam3us>
PeterR: well on #1 SPV nodes trust miners anyway.. so that maybe no difference.
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<PeterR>
I'm referring to the complexity and work required to support the change. Upgrading wallets to support segwit is more work than bumping the 1,000,000 byte MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant. Do you disagree?
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<Eliel_>
PeterR: In case you haven't paid attention, I think most here would want SW even if it wasn't being used to extend capacity. It is more complex and more work, but it also improves several other things at the same time. It's not that difficult to implement.
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<Luke-Jr>
kanzure: adam3us: seriously, what is the benefit of ext-blocks? it's hugely complex.
<Luke-Jr>
a soft-hardfork seems better in every way, and much simpler
<PeterR>
Elilel: I like segwit too. What I don't like is the "accounting" needed to implement it as a hard fork. In order to limit the non-segwit data to 1,000,000 bytes, the rule is:
<PeterR>
base x 4 + segwit <= 4,000,000 bytes
<PeterR>
(Note that if segwit = 0, then this inequality reduces to "base <= 1,000,000 bytes").
<PeterR>
But with segwit as a hardfork, we would have:
<PeterR>
base + segwit <= 2,000,000 bytes
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<PeterR>
Or more simply:
<PeterR>
transactional data < 2,000,000 bytes
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<PeterR>
*first sentence should read "to implement it as a SOFT fork"
<Eliel_>
PeterR: I'd still prefer lower weight for the witness part.
<adlai>
PeterR: I believe the point is that the non-opted-in network is not forced to even acknowledge the new network's existence
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<PeterR>
I think the idea to possible adjust the weighting is very interesting. But I would prefer it to be done through a market-driven process.
<PeterR>
And the defaults should be set with some communication with the community. Right now, people are surprised to hear that TXs with large signatures are given an effective discount of up to 75%.
<instagibbs>
sigops are still bounded via cap
<PeterR>
When people hear this, they think it might be a sneaky move to subsidize future TXs that could have large signatures (such as compact proofs used to return sidechain coins to the main chain).
<instagibbs>
jtoomim already said as much
<instagibbs>
it's to discourage utxo set growth
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<Eliel_>
PeterR: I'd prefer a market driven process too. However, I have no idea whatsoever on how to actually implement it in a way that would work in practice and that wouldn't add complexity to the implementation, that 1:4 is fine for now. We can replace SW in the future with the exact same process, if a better way is figured out.
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<instagibbs>
in a future HF we can do a linear combination of cost factors, and then argue about how to make them dynamic instead of just blocksize. woo
<PeterR>
Market process is easy: start with 1:1 or 1:2 or whatever seems to minimize the complaints. But then let miners easily adjust the price for the two types of block space. (Of course, taking into account any hard-coded limits).
<kanzure>
"changing the constant is is simple" (notice how there's no link to the large diffs that have been proposed)
<TD-Linux>
PeterR, but the "hard-coded limits" are what's under the discussion. miners can already do as you describe
<instagibbs>
Miners would be able to fiddle to their heart's desire below that linear combination.
<PeterR>
TD-Linux: Yes then can do as I described. I'd like to make it easier for them by giving them the best tools, and make the dialog about the price of the two types of block space a more visible topic.
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<PeterR>
*they
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<PeterR>
Got to run. Nice chatting with everyone.
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<kanzure>
none of the above reasons were related to what bluematt or luke-jr said
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<tromp>
i'm not sure i understand his proposal. would this digest be part of the header? and part of the PoW input? that amounts to radically changing the PoW
<tromp>
if not part of the PoW input, then the pool operator can just add it post-facto and nothing changes
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<psztorc>
It starts very simple: [1] you can prove that you _are_ an up-to-date full node by providing x = H(everything), and then [2] protocol change such that miners need x in order for each block to be valid.
<psztorc>
But then it gets a dramatic upgrade: "everything" is shortened to "a smaller sample of everything", which shuffles after each block is found.
<psztorc>
The shuffling forces each nonce to clear two hurdles, and nodes can help clear the first, and "sell" this.
<psztorc>
So nodes can, theoretically, sell percentage-point-improvements in finding a block.
<Eliel_>
so, effectively that'd mean that validating and mining become potentially separate activities and those who only want to mine might pay for validation services?
<psztorc>
I think that that is true.
<kanzure>
"nonce-th byte" yea....
<psztorc>
Miners need fully valid 'half blocks' in order to mine; 'half blocks' need to have the entire chain history.
<kanzure>
not sure why i should expect the nonce-th byte to exist in every previous block. what about small blocks that had little content?
<psztorc>
If I understand him completely (not likely), you concatenated (and wrap) the entire thing.
<psztorc>
There's a little mouseover example, that the people here probably understand better than I.
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<kanzure>
"This forces a minimum population of nodes to exist in order for mining to even be possible" what? is that true? i think it just means you force the miner to have a lot of parallelism, not a lot of nodes.
<psztorc>
That's basically what I asked him about.
<psztorc>
"Two different ASIC types".
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<psztorc>
Even if you had parallism, though, you can still *improve* your position by asking nodes to help.
<kanzure>
position?
<psztorc>
Your mining ROI.
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<psztorc>
kanzure: Upon closer inspection, he just wraps it within each block.
<psztorc>
You probably figured that out, although he double-uses "c3" which reduced the clarity of the example a smidge.
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<zooko>
kanzure, oh human encyclopedia: please tell me the URL of gmaxwell's post about "zero-knowledge proofs without moon math"!
<fluffypony>
JackH: it was already mentioned here, check the logs
<JackH>
oho
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<Eliel_>
Mircea's idea would seriously increase the I/O bandwidth use for even just validating blocks...
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<Eliel_>
you'd have to basically read the whole blockchain to validate any new block.
<Eliel_>
Well, this'd basically just change the PoW algorithm from SHA256 to a proof of blockchain storage algorithm and make block validation take much much longer than it does today.
<Eliel_>
It's intriguing, but I don't like it. Running a full node is resource intensive enough already. No need to blow that to the next dimension.
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<Luke-Jr>
someone takes Mircea seriously? O.o
<fluffypony>
Luke-Jr: Paul Sztorc (!!) did
<Eliel_>
Luke-Jr: Not me, not after this proposal. But then again, I'd have never even looked at it if it wasn't discussed here first :P
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<Eliel_>
Although, I must admit I'm not quite sure if Mircea himself thinks he's being serious or not.
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<Luke-Jr>
Eliel_: it seems much more serious than his usual trolling, IMO. it just doesn't think the idea through far enough.
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<JackH>
he seems quite certain of himself and even writes that he refuses to accept it wont work
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<JackH>
in his universe, his words are absolute - its quite funny to read
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<psztorc>
Too bad it got a veto from Greg.
<psztorc>
JackH: He does that on purpose, to manipulate the type of people who choose to read his blog.
<psztorc>
The secret is that he isn't arrogant at all -- only pretending.
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<JackH>
well, I dont feel offended at all, but his wording is similar to that of a mad man with grand delusions of self
<JackH>
not really the approach I would take to present a BIP, haha