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<Taek>
I've started to be in favor of software regulation
<Taek>
Some of the enterprise security breaks and consumer device flaws were really avoidable, and the result of poorly designed code
<Taek>
almost like the designer didn't expect anyone to try and break it
<Taek>
and, regulation kills innovation, but remotely hacked autonomous cars can be used nefariously
<Taek>
as a consumer, I feel like it's not really my job to know which cars meet reasonable security standards. As a consumer, I probably couldn't tell good code from psuedocode.
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<Taek>
and, I think that the blockchain space is one of the areas that it would make sense to regulate. Or rather, have some sort of certification process
<Taek>
I'm not in favor of making code illegal, or making a network or altcoin illegal
<Taek>
but I do think there needs to be some way to let a consumer know 'these guys have gone through a formal process to prove their stuff is production ready and safe-for-use"
<belcher>
what harm can happen in the blockchain space that is similar to the self-driving-cars example ?
<Taek>
:< sounds like hell though
<ggreer>
actually enforcing software regulations is pretty hard. general purpose computers are everywhere
<Taek>
belcher: people losing money. The virtual world is mostly limited to that I think. Though, as smart contracts become more pervasive you could end up with more important things on the line
<ggreer>
it'd be like trying to stop nuclear proliferation in a world where everyone already has tons of plutonium
<Taek>
ggreer: if you just had a non-enforced whitelist that people trusted, we'd be miles ahead of where we are. But I'm not sure I would ever trust such a whitelist
<Taek>
"this plutionium won't blow up without your permission" ---> pretty nice thing to know
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<Taek>
When I buy a house, I don't worry that it's structurally sound. I know that it's passed a bunch of reglations that mean it's structurally sound
<ggreer>
if people want to opt-in to curated software, can't they already do that by using iOS or android devices? those have locked-down app stores that only verified devs can publish software in
<belcher>
people losing money who voluntarily got involved in bitcoin isnt nearly as bad as innocent bystanders dying because of a self driving car
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<Taek>
belcher: you are correct
<bsm1175321>
People losing money who voluntarily give it to snake oil salesman is also illegal. Don't blame the victim for losing money.
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<ggreer>
Taek: I'm not sure what you know about autonomous vehicles, but almost all of them have a software architecture where there's a core module that can't be updated
<ggreer>
and it checks basic things like, "am I going too fast for the conditions? are there obstacles in the way?" etc
<ggreer>
and if any of those constraints are violated, the car slows down or stops. the incident is logged, etc
<ggreer>
so that even if you hacked the car, you wouldn't be able to crash it. worst case, you'd brick the car
<smooth>
sounds like a good way to kidnap people
<ggreer>
on the other hand, every year in the US, approximately 40,000 people are killed in human-driven cars. for every day we delay self-driving cars, that's another 100 lives lost
<ggreer>
even if these movie plot threats were plausible, they wouldn't kill 40,000 people
<smooth>
depends on the movie
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<Aleph0>
Taek: are you familiar how software gets verified for flaws/vulns in enterprise settings?
<Aleph0>
there are regulations, etc.
<Aleph0>
all that stuff has been reviewed, and signed off by multiple ppl, etc.
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<Aleph0>
there is just very little in terms of consequences for everyone involved.
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<Taek>
Aleph0: I am not familiar with it, but it sounds along the lines of what I'm thinking about
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<pigeons>
yeah software quality has safety effects now
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<bsm117532>
I don't know that we could accomplish reliability and safety guarantees in today's software environment. I would welcome such a thing, but there's a new language every 10 minutes...
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* bsm117532
has been playing with golang, ethereum, serpent, etc. It's become so easy to whip up a new language.
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<bsm117532>
Proving correctness is another ball of wax...
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<bsm117532>
I think the halting problem and the incompleteness theorem has discouraged mathematicians and computer scientists from even trying, which is unfortunate, because by restricting the domain, correctness can certainly be proved and checked. But no one even tries....
<bsm117532>
I've seen a number of "folk theorems" in physics have the same effect. :-/
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<Taek>
I think a lot of us, as well as a huge part of the general crypto community, would appreciate having better tooling for provably correct code
<bsm117532>
I know the new libsecp256k1 went through a lot of testing using Sage, but I don't know the details.
<zmanian_>
maaku: do you have any references to non outsourceable POW that do require CRS?
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<rgrant>
Taek: are you aware of Cryptol (www.cryptol.net), Galois's Copilot embedded systems DSL, and techniques used in the verification of L4? ( https://github.com/seL4/l4v )
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<adlai>
Taek: i think you may be confusing software regulation with automobile regulation
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* adlai
is also in favor of regulating high-speed multiton killing machines, but this only incidentally involves checking which software they're running
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<Taek>
adlai: yeah, that's a good point. It's not software regulation I want. It's regulation of monetary services like blockchain.info, like shadowcash. It's cell phone baseband and operating systems.
<Taek>
I guess shadowcash doesn't make sense either. It's a protocol.
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<Luke-Jr>
Taek: you want baseband and OSs regulated?
<Taek>
Luke-Jr: better than having 90% of the population using phones that have remote code execution vulnerabilities, imho
<Luke-Jr>
Taek: not really IMO
<Luke-Jr>
unless the regulations allow private use of any OS
<Taek>
of course. If you want to wipe your phone and install whatever, be my guest. But in the process of doing so there should be warnings that you're leaving the realm of certified code
<Luke-Jr>
k
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<Taek>
but yeah, slippery slope. Especially if the regulator is not intimate with the industry
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<Taek>
so, one thing OI
<Taek>
*One thing I've been thinking about a lot more seriously is the ability to run multiple sets of consensus code on the same blockchain
<Taek>
the constants for the blockchain itself would still need to be set, so you wouldn't avoid debates like the block size debate
<Taek>
but if you had multiple chains, ways to one-way-peg or atomic-swap between them, you could hardfork a lot more easily
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<Taek>
fix things like the multisig bug, and introduce new transaction types or signature schemes, or other features that would require a hardfork
<Taek>
and you wouldn't need to do so much backbending to get stuff through with softforks when they really should be hardforks
<Taek>
things like fixing malleability
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<Taek>
and you can even introduce things like inflation
<Taek>
you'd accomplish this by having each transaction prefix itself with a code that specifies which set of consensus rules to use
<Taek>
to change the consensus rules, you just introduce a new code. That new code gets a fresh utxo set, meaning everyone who doesn't upgrade doesn't need to worry
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<Taek>
blocks are valid so long as the POW matches, and all the data is there
<Taek>
if a transaction is invalid for its particular consensus rules, you just ignore it, instead of making the whole block invalid
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<Taek>
which means clients only need to validate a portion of the chain, and don't need to be aware of the consensus rules of every utxo set in order to be confident in their own balances
<Taek>
though they do still need to download the whole chain
<Taek>
this breaks SPV
<Taek>
but, if there are transaction types which have speedlimits, such as 1 per block and 16kb max, SPV becomes unimportant
<Taek>
you validate the headers of the master chain, and then download the 16kb you care about
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<Taek>
and then things like phones can actually be full validating nodes, except for the fact that they aren't downloading the whole blocks. So they are SPV for knowing that a block exists in full, but not for knowing that transactions are valid
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<Taek>
I think the major thing remaining here is figuring out how to get the utxo sets to be fully interoperable, though I feel like that doesn't need to be a part of the consensus code
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<Taek>
if you are running multiple, and have payment channels on each, you can reasonably do decentralized trading for coins between chains
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<BitcoinErrorLog>
Taek i was reading your comments via the Slack channel
<BitcoinErrorLog>
about having a compatible ledger
<BitcoinErrorLog>
but
<BitcoinErrorLog>
isnt that just wanting to put Bitcoin in Bitcoin?
<BitcoinErrorLog>
as in, what happens when you need to update the main protocol?
<Taek>
well, like I said there are some core things that you can't make flexible. Namely, blocksize, POW function, any timestamp rules, blocktime, and how headers + top-level transactions are composed
<instagibbs>
would miners be in charge of validating all the consensus rules of each system?
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<instagibbs>
if not, you're essentially describing embedded consensus
<Taek>
miners would be in charge of knowing that all of the data existed. but they wouldn't need to run any validation code on that data
<Taek>
is embedded consensus formally documented somewhere?
<instagibbs>
the treechains idea is another layer on top of that idea
<instagibbs>
since you won't be able to ensure everyone validates everything anyways
<instagibbs>
missing data is a problem though
<Taek>
yeah it's similar. The thing I don't like about treechains though is that there's a mechanic to reorg some chains without reorging all of them
<Taek>
and datawitholding
<instagibbs>
yeah it's next-level issues
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<bsm1175321>
Is there a comprehensive writeup of treechains somewhere? I was under the impression that it didn't work or needed some yet-unknown development to make it work.
<instagibbs>
it doesn't work right now :P
<bsm1175321>
Taek: I've had that idea too -- regarding different sets of consensus rules. I think it makes an awful lot of sense.
<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, iirc the incentives are basically a giant question mark
<bsm1175321>
Taek: One then needs ways to make coins fungible between different sets of consensus rules. I think of this as a solution to the merged mining problem.
<bsm1175321>
The merged mining problem is that in order to have multiple assets (including sidechains) you need everyone to mine everything, or hashpower can be dumped onto sidechains to destroy them. What you describe (Taek) is a mechanism to get everyone to merge-mine everything.
<instagibbs>
miners are not required to create a "valid" chain
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<instagibbs>
people follow the longest PoW chain(within some bounds like blocksize, etc) then validate themselves
<instagibbs>
so double-spends included are simply ignored, etc
<bsm1175321>
instagibbs: then the chain is full of trash...I do not think double-spends should be recorded for all time.
<instagibbs>
it's trash to you, but perhaps not to others?
<bsm1175321>
Also, a node doesn't actually know if there is consensus about the UTXO state. It could have parsed something differently than other nodes, and wouldn't know.
<instagibbs>
well, double-spends are probably trash no matter people's preferences, but then you have to force miners to validate everything again
<bsm1175321>
I do think of miners as validation agents, committing their work to their validation task.
<instagibbs>
so now your stupid protocol centralizes my nice simple one :P
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<bsm1175321>
FWIW I've been thinking an awful lot about sharding. Don't know how much it overlaps with petertodd's treechains but it relies on making the UTXO set into a Merkle tree, and having nodes commit to storing a branch of it. So each node has a truncated Merkle tree.
<bsm1175321>
Storage commitments are incentivized by passing proofs-of-storage, which get added to transactions.
<bsm1175321>
Then there's logic about how to track the tree at the point you truncated the Merkle tree.
<bsm1175321>
From what I can see, my logic works, and results in O(log(n)) scaling. (The proofs you're passing around about presence of outputs in the UTXO set grow as log(n))
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<bsm1175321>
I guess I need to re-read all these references. I've read almost all of them before...
<Taek>
bsm1175321: chain is very unlikely to be full of trash. Though miners are not required to validate transactions before the throw them into the chain, there are likely transaction fees associated, and understanding those fees means doing at least after-the-fact validation of the chain. It also means they are incentivized to not supply double-spends, as that cuts into fee revenue
<bsm1175321>
I guess you can have two categories of solutions: (1) arrange for all UTXO's spent by a given transaction to be available on some node somewhere (Vitalik et al's solution above) or (2) collect proofs from other nodes about presence of the UTXO's you can't see in the most recent global UTXO set commitment.
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<bsm1175321>
Taek: Okay so you're proposing a different incentive mechanism there, which I haven't seen before.
<bsm1175321>
"The provision of this additional information amounts to a “direct revelation mechanism”: Instead of instructing nodes to select the chain they extend, we simply ask them to report all possible choices, and other nodes can simulate their choice, just as they would have made it (the term direct revelation is borrowed from economics where it is widely used in mechanism design [10])."
<kanzure>
i don't see how you get from taek's last message to that "direct revelation mechanism"
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: He's proposing to keep all possible choices including un-validated chains. it's the same thing.
<kanzure>
in his last message? or in a prior message? in his last message he is simply a current fact for the blockchain- miners are foregoing the fees from double spends, because otherwise their blocks will be invalid.
<bsm1175321>
Prior message. I've got like 3 overlapping conversations in my head now, and am confusing myself... I'm going to wander off now...
<kanzure>
earlier prior message makes more sense, nevermind
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<kanzure>
hmm so why are we not using PoW for the peer protocol? e.g. for every rpc request, include some small PoW that some work is being done to commit to the transmitted data?
<helo>
because we want consensus to be as fast as possible, right?
<kanzure>
if transaction validation has a cost, then it seems reasonable to bottleneck that cost by first evaluating whether there is a PoW attached to it, to first determine whether to bother to do a utxo lookup or do the validation work (especially for unconfirmed stuffs)
<kanzure>
well, i am thinking about the silly claim that non-mining relay nodes are useless. they aren't. and attaching PoW to rpc actions might do something interesting.
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: I think we should. We're explicitly enabling outsourcing of mining by not doing so, and I don't think that's something a "decentralized" coin should do.
<bsm1175321>
hashcash all the things.
<bsm1175321>
The braided/sharded coin proposal I'm slowly building will have not have a free relay layer. Every tx will be mined, and I'm thinking inter-node rpc calls should be mined too.
<kanzure>
what would it mean to "mine" an "inter-node rpc call"?
<Guest24373>
Do you mean RPC or p2p messages?
<bsm1175321>
I mean p2p messages.
<bsm1175321>
Not 100% sure that makes sense...
<kanzure>
as in, "look! they are there in the merkle tree!" ?
<kanzure>
also: is it the p2p request that should have a PoW, or the response, or both?
<instagibbs>
adding PoW to things without directly "mining" it seems like going backwards
<helo>
increasing the cost for those that are using the network's resources, so they will only do it if it is worth the cost
<helo>
difficulty retargets will be hard to implement, no?
<kanzure>
seems somewhat passive aggressive "you can't figure out an incentive for me to give you this data, so instead i am going to make you do proof-of-burn PoW stuff". (the reason why demanding payment for data doesn't work is that there will always be people freely giving away the data)
<helo>
it's just a fee paid to external entities, right? "buy your BFL p2p request asic now!"
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: The incentive model I have now for a sharded coin would have nodes asking each other for proofs-of-inclusion in the UTXO set. The response would contain a commitment (also in the same data structure as the UTXO Merkle tree) that the requestee is holding that section of the UTXO set, and an address to pay him.
<bsm1175321>
So, no PoW at that level in my half-finished head-model coin right now.
<bsm1175321>
But you can imagine an attack by creating a large number of double-spends, just to tax the network.
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<maaku>
kanzure: well lightning payments for p2p calls will make these ideas obsolete.
<kanzure>
but why would anyone pay? there's probably always going to be freely available blockchain data.
<maaku>
maybe
<maaku>
but in the mean time if you turn it on within your own node, either (a) people stop asking or (b) you earn some money, so win-win
<maaku>
I mean it may never make sense to run a node to collect the fees. it won't even cover the cost of running the server
<maaku>
but it's a better rate limiter than making the caller burn electricity
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<instagibbs>
maaku, indeed, if it's not being put into consensus it seems backwards
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<kanzure>
maaku: spv-oblivious is actually the wrong phrase too..... it's still ambiguous. it needs to be, i think, spv-breaking and spv-non-breaking hard-forks.
<kanzure>
or maybe spv-silent and spv-non-silent...... this is actually pretty hard.
<kanzure>
intentionally-spv-breaking and intentionally-spv-non-breaking :P
<kanzure>
or maybe the word "spv-halting" should be thrown in there somewhere.
<kanzure>
too many dimensions
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