sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm1175321>
Assume two coins having a UTXO set commitment scheme that allows compact proofs of UTXO set inclusion for specific outputs. Could a ZKCP on each chain be used to atomically trade coins on one chain for coins on the other? (Here the ZKP program verifies the UTXO set inclusion proof)
<kanzure>
er that seems to require a consensus impossibility result, which we are already bucking because of bitcoin's looser definition of algorithmic consensus
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<kanzure>
also, you seem to require two different contingent payments, with presumably two different setups
<bsm1175321>
Yes, each buyer sets up their own ZKP for it.
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<kanzure>
i don't see how atomicity applies to your scenario. i think that one party has to post the pay-by-altcoin-UTXO-set-inclusion-proof transaction before the other party?
<kanzure>
you are proving inclusion in the UTXO set.. meaning you have already caused the payment to already be mined.
<bsm1175321>
And if the other party doesn't submit payment, you have to fall back on a backout transaction. So this is no different than payment channels.
<bsm1175321>
Darn.
<kanzure>
i think you are missing a small detail,
<bsm1175321>
I do that. Go on...
<kanzure>
you can't fall back to the timeout transaction because you already made the contingent payment locktime transaction-- e.g. the other party gave you the hash and proof, so the other party is going to have a lot of time (before the timeout) to publish the preimage that they know (by virtue of them generating the hash and giving it to you).
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<kanzure>
at best you could probably do some zero knowledge proof of inclusion of a 2-of-2 multisig transaction where both parties are part of the multisig transaction, but as you pointed out there are other protocols available
<kanzure>
eh nevermind, i retract "at best"
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<bsm1175321>
These transactions have a scriptsig that reveals the hash preimage, that's the mechanism of revelation.
<bsm1175321>
So if either party spends the payment, the other party can too.
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<bsm1175321>
But I think neither party can spend it.
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<miguelankel>
good morning
<miguelankel>
is bitcoin hacked yet?
<amiller>
not yet, thanks for asking
<Greybits>
there is some rumor about port 8332 if that is what you are talking about
<bsm1175321>
/kick miguelankel
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<miguelankel>
okay, thanks, kisses <3
<miguelankel>
when will bitcoin go to tha moon?
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<Greybits>
^ban obvious troll
<amiller>
miguelankel, find an offtopic channel
<miguelankel>
i can't understand
<miguelankel>
i'm not in telnet now
<miguelankel>
sorry i don't remember how it works irc
<miguelankel>
are you hear me ?
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<miguelankel>
._.
<miguelankel>
no one talk here?
<miguelankel>
okay bye kisses
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<the_last9>
You guys heard about Lisk? https://lisk.io/ -- apparently every single one of their DAPPS runs in its own blockchain? They just raised 5 mill from their ICO.
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<the_last9>
We really need more of this stuff pegged to Bitcoin.
<the_last9>
I hope RootStock isn't too far away.
<kanzure>
wrong channel
<the_last9>
This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies
<Greybits>
yes pls join #bitcoin-shills
<the_last9>
I'm not a shill rofl. I'm sending it in here so the devs can see it.
<bsm1175321>
What's with the trolls tonight?
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<the_last9>
If I was pumping it I would share it in #bitcoin, retards.
<the_last9>
Also it's not even on the market.
<Greybits>
who let the trolls out?
<the_last9>
God damn, Bitcoiners are so defensive lately, sometimes I'm ashamed to be part of this group. You cunts make this community so toxic, makes me want to sell all my coins.
<bsm1175321>
Primary innovation is being written for node.js. NEXT
<bsm1175321>
Also DPoS. I like that idea actually, but not for a large open system.
<the_last9>
What about the sidechain thing? Is that a dumb idea?
<bsm1175321>
Their description of that appears to be a lot of mumbo-jumbo.
<bsm1175321>
For a "whitepaper" this is utter bullshit, it does not describe how it works.
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<bsm1175321>
Also, I organize a Whitepaper Wedneday meetup where we discuss such things. I would not accept this whitepaper for discussion, it's very far from being a serious contribution to the space, AFAICT.
<the_last9>
Yeah, it's more of a 'doco' page. Pretty fail.
<the_last9>
And it's short as hell.
<the_last9>
https://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf -- they link to blockstream sidechains mm. It'd be amusing if this turned out to be a scam after raising that amount of funding.
<bsm1175321>
I'm well aware of the Sidechains project, I was talking with a couple of Blockstream guys this afternoon. A two way peg is relatively straightforward for any coin. I don't see that these guys are creating any advancement at all.
<bsm1175321>
FWIW I recommend that everyone submit their whitepapers to http://ledgerjournal.org and get peer review. The scientific community has figured out the best way I know to separate the wheat from the chaff, and we should follow. An ICO is generally a scam. I want peer review.
<the_last9>
Oh cool, I like it. Wasn't aware this existed.
<bsm1175321>
We're in the process of migrating our blog and this will be reposted, but: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:id9tFNztCQMJ:https://blog.sldx.com/bringing-science-to-bitcoin/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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<the_last9>
If you want to register a sidechain on your node, you need to be added by the owner of the sidechain (ie the person who created it and keep the passphrase needed for this action, secret).
<the_last9>
lol... Isn't that hugely decentralized?
<bsm1175321>
*centralized, yes. What?
<the_last9>
err, centralized*
<the_last9>
It is not yet optimal, this will be changed in the future. The idea is that anybody could mine a sidechain and the consensus vote apply the same way as for the mainchain.
<the_last9>
I see this as a huge weakness, if every DAPP has its own sidechain, small projects have huge security weaknesses due to their centralization?
<the_last9>
Seems sketchy.
<the_last9>
Makes me wonder why the other people in the smart contracts space haven't tried this approach or talked about it.
<bsm1175321>
I don't understand. But mining sidechains in a secure manner is a generally unsolved problem. It's the reason that the Blockstream Elements Alpha project chose a federated peg instead.
<the_last9>
Oh right. That's hilarious. So their solution is "we'll figure this out later"? LOL
<bsm1175321>
Basically. I don't like it either. But they at least admit what they don't know, rather than faking some insecure shit.
<the_last9>
True. Still, how can they say they're going to launch in April and they haven't even figured this part out yet. Doesn't it make sidechains vulnerable to doublespends?
<bsm1175321>
"We're going to figure out a huge unsolved problem in computer science by next month" is kind of the MO of crappy coin projects.
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<the_last9>
Indeed.
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<brg444>
the_last9 afaik nothing sidechain related is scheduled for april
<the_last9>
:O are you some kind of wizard?
<the_last9>
Says you just joined the channel, what is this sorcery. You idling on multiple clients?
<brg444>
I was reading the logs over at core slack
<the_last9>
Oh, wasn't aware it did that :P
<the_last9>
Anyway, yeah I didn't expect it to be. I looked at their roadmap, doesn't mention anything about the sidechains stuff at all.
<brg444>
that would be because core roadmap is a different thing than Blockstream's sidechains venture
<Greybits>
know why all the coins are doomed? because they all lead to centralization, not decentralization.
<the_last9>
brg444: Naw I'm talking about Lisk, I think you might have missed most of the convo haha.
<the_last9>
Greybits: Everything leads to centralization.
<Greybits>
blockchain is so bloated the only way it will work in the future is if Azure hosts it. that sounds like a wonderful idea to me.
<brg444>
ah, yeah I had a look at the lisk thing... it smells like a scam
<the_last9>
Well if we think Bitcoin blockchain is bad, Ethereum blockchain is going to be far worse. But they claim "sharding" and stuff will fix it. Why couldn't Bitcoin follow the same approach if their approach was successful?
<Greybits>
that is like saying we cant we reverse engineer VHS if these DVDs are successful
<Greybits>
s/we/why
<the_last9>
brg444: Yeah I'm suspicious as well.
<brg444>
pretty nuts that people would hand over 14000btc to these guys https://lisk.io/team
<the_last9>
Why? Hard forks are possible.
<the_last9>
If it would even require one.
<bsm1175321>
AFAICT the existing Ethereum sharding proposal adds an economic incentive to not cross shards, without any mechanism to decide whether you need to cross shards. So, I think it will cause widespread breakage of smart contracts in out-of-gas scenarios. This problem is much harder than that, and economic incentives should, in general, not be used to solve computer science problems.
<the_last9>
I actually heard someone say "it's not a big deal if it's a terabyte in size, in a year you'll be able to buy terabyte harddrives for really cheap"
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<the_last9>
Ah, that's just mah Ethereum hard drive bro!
<Greybits>
the_last9, yes, because everyone should have to buy another HD just to run a bitcoin node.
<the_last9>
hahaha exactly
<bsm1175321>
We desperately need to solve sharding, as fast as possible.
<Greybits>
i sharded one time...it was not pretty
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<the_last9>
well, Ethereum node. But Bitcoin will face the same fate eventually.
<bsm1175321>
Don't shard all over the floor. A UV light can pick that shit up.
<Greybits>
all trolling aside....i am not expecting perfection from bitcoin. but tell me how i can overlook the fact that bitcoin uses 10,000x more energry to process 3.7tps than visa uses to process 40,000tps. please tell me how i can accept this a lover of mother earth.
<bsm1175321>
Bitcoin is facing it now. Blocks are full. An exactly full (1000000 byte block) was mined *today*.
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<bsm1175321>
Greybits: wouldn't you like to know that it costs me $1,000,000,000 to defraud you? The alternative is holding up a JP Morgan data center at gunpoint. What does that cost? (dunno)
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<bsm1175321>
Proof of Work adds an economic value to one's ability to defraud another.
<bsm1175321>
I view PoW as a hedge of the honest element against the capacities of the criminal element.
<bsm1175321>
As an economic resource, I can increase my expenditure to ensure there is no fraud, via PoW.
<Greybits>
If you are speaking intellectually about economics than you have to consider the costs of the pollution from miners too, and could the same results be achievable with less damage to the environment. again, nobody said it has to "perfect". but i dont see the value in using so much energy for so little result.
<the_last9>
like what, PoS?
<Greybits>
i dont have any answers, i am not smart enough to solve what i see.
<the_last9>
People like things with "tangibility", if it costs more to make a coin they're seen as valuable because that cost is transferred into the coin. it's our only argument against "bitcoins are created out of thin air from nothing"
<the_last9>
not great for the environment, but I think it gives the coins an aspect of tangibility, which is needed given how negative outsiders views are on bitcoin.
<Greybits>
i understand your point, for purposes of this discussion. at the same time, i dont think someone who is sitting the fence on bitcoins is going to think "well, it does use 22.7 jiggawatts of electricity, so maybe i should buy some".
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<the_last9>
haha, perhaps. when I've sold people on the idea of bitcoin before i make it clear that it costs a lot of money to mine a coin so they have inherent value. that argument goes out the window if they're free to make.
<the_last9>
also PoS carries an air of "make the rich richer"
<the_last9>
i mean, it's the same thing for hashing power, but it's less transparent
<Greybits>
thank you for having a rational discussion about it. i do understand your side of the arguments. but i will never give up on fighting the good fight for mother earth, either. i hope something good will happen.
<bsm1175321>
Fundamentally, any asset is a trade of one source of value for another. "I'm going to put you on my VIP list" is not a source of value. The cost of creating a list is zero in the digital age. A blockchain is fundamentally just a list. So...who I don't want to be on your list.
<Greybits>
i need to go before i embarass myself further at this late hour.
<bsm1175321>
Likewise, thanks for an interesting discussion, thanks ladies and gents!
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<Greybits>
peace.
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<bsm117532>
What's the latest on building an OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY?
<bsm117532>
I find myself lobbying for the hyperledger project to become a sidechain to Bitcoin, to enable inter-ledger trading. What do you guys think?
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<instagibbs>
hyperledger would work just fine as a fedpeg, no?
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<bsm117532>
Yep. But imagine lots of private hyperledgers. Could they all trade?
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<instagibbs>
That's the sidechains pitch :)
<instagibbs>
each chain has to recognize the other I think though
<instagibbs>
(I've only worked on elements alpha/liquid, so just guessing from there)
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<pigeons>
interledger is going through the W3C community group standards process
<pigeons>
since you metnion inter-ledger trading. i know its a different approach.