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<Bitcoindouble_>
Hi guys So i came accross www. 1freebitcoin . Com on google It claims it doubles bitcoins you send to a generated address within 3 confimations I started with 0.1btc stated minimum waited for 3 confimations on the blockchain and boom there was 0.2 btc sent to my wallet so i went on to send 1.0 btc and got 2.0 back on 3rd conf just sent 1.0 again waiting for 2 more confimations will update
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<p15>
don't fall for it
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<amiller>
i think it's pretty straightforward to turn this interactive proof-of-proof-of-work protocol into a proper noninteractive compact SPV proof
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<JackH>
harding, would it be correct to also say: 1 hash = 1 calculation? or do we have a better definition for "a hash"
<JackH>
a miner performs a calculation? no right? a miner guesses a string? what would be the definition here?
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<fluffypony>
One successful hash or one attempt, jackH ?
<JackH>
one attempt
<fluffypony>
I would say "1 guess" or "1 attempt" are accurate
<fluffypony>
Since it technically involves multiple calculations I would avoid that word
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<JackH>
ok so when we say: 1PH/s does that imply 1 quadrillion calculations or attempts
<JackH>
I mean, it is attempts, but that sounds silly too
<JackH>
I tried something one quadrillion times....
<JackH>
reason being is that if its not explained very clear, it is impossible to teach people or give them clarity
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<tromp_>
proof attempt is good. it's not necessarily the same as a hash computation (if we consider other PoW besides Hashcash)
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<Taek>
5btc for discovery in of [attacks] in ZK proofs, ring signatures, key management, and other advanced cryptographic techniques
<Taek>
I support that, provided there's responsible disclosure of course
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<jannes>
good point
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<fluffypony>
Taek: although 5 BTC is a little small
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<Taek>
I thought so to, but it seems to be targeted more at students. If you're convincing someone to choose X over Y for a thesis, 5btc might be plenty
<fluffypony>
ah yeah true
<tromp_>
any progress on testing new Moner PoW, fluffy?
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<fluffypony>
tromp_: been playing around with it, satoshi roundtable threw my timetable a bit - just got home a couple of hours ago
<fluffypony>
Aleph0: we're going to do Cuckoo Cycle for a PoW-on-connect challenge, and if it holds up as we hope then we will switch to it as our main PoW
<maaku>
fluffypony: is that code written? want to upstream it?
<fluffypony>
maaku: no not yet - upstreaming would be difficult, we don't share a common codebase
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<instagibbs>
fluffypony, cool
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<instagibbs>
any documentation on that?
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<instagibbs>
(meaning plans for the connection challenge)
<fluffypony>
instagibbs: no - at the moment it's just been some discussionabout what that could look like - I think the concept is reasonably clear: random PoW challenge when an inbound peer connects, if they solve the challenge continue with the connection, else add them to the ban list
<instagibbs>
right, well I was just wondering since it's a low-energy form of PoW an attacker could just take time to exhaust resources if it's a "challenge and forget" type system.
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<instagibbs>
I haven't done much thinking about such things, but the more I think about it, the more your version seems the safest. I'd be interested in the future.
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<fluffypony>
instagibbs: the key advantage here is that the attacker expends way more energy computing the attack than our node spends verifying it
<fluffypony>
because of that unique property of Cuckoo Cycle
<Aleph0>
but an attacker can utilize a single beefy machine to connect a bunch of nodes, all of them re-using the pow-accelerator-equipped machine.
<instagibbs>
guess I thought it was more about memory-bounding attacks
<smooth>
how does a single machine help if each challenge is unique
<instagibbs>
Aleph0, tromp_ believes that the cycle cannot be appreciably sped up by special machines, so let's assume just RAM is needed
<Aleph0>
smooth: you re-use its resoruces for each connect.
<smooth>
Aleph0: at a minimum it limits the rate of connections
<instagibbs>
I suppose making the challenge takes minutes to solve would work
<instagibbs>
minutes, seconds, whatever
<Aleph0>
smooth: might as well implement a back-off algo, same thing
<smooth>
even if it take 10 seconds, thats still probably 100x slower than if you just flooded connections
<smooth>
Aleph0: only if you can identify the originator
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<instagibbs>
What I imagined before was something like: Draw a random number from an exponential distribution. Wait that many minutes, then suddenly challenge all your peers to use significant amount of RAM. If it's sybil, many should fail.
<Aleph0>
you can still get DDoSed with a botnet, you will be able to request a ton of challenges
<instagibbs>
but that is problematic for bans
<smooth>
Aleph0: it costs virtually nothing to provide challenges and verify them
<Aleph0>
smooth: probably a good idea to implement back off for challenge requests too, if you are trying to protect from repeated requests.
<smooth>
you can certainly get connection flooded or whatever
<Aleph0>
good point on that cuckoo pow helps to identify the requester.
<Aleph0>
smooth: or flooded with invalid challenge responses, those are cheap to generate.
<fluffypony>
Aleph0: they're equally cheap to verify and ban
<instagibbs>
yeah banning is the key there
<fluffypony>
which means it's no worse than the current mechanism
<instagibbs>
if we're banning, it's probably not a good idea to scatter challenges about, only on connect
<fluffypony>
yeah, keep it simple
<smooth>
banning isn't always a useful option. Over Tor for example.
<instagibbs>
partitioning accidentally/maliciously could happen fast
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<smooth>
if you make connecting expensive (but cheap to verify) then attackers have higher costs than honest users. Thats about the best that is possible I think
<fluffypony>
yeah
<Aleph0>
challenge request should be difficult to compute
<instagibbs>
smooth, then the question why not just some form of hashcash
<smooth>
instagibbs: that would work, but it does introduce issues between different equipment
<Aleph0>
are there such schemes, where an attacker has to expend resources before even requesting challenge?
<instagibbs>
Aleph0, bitcoin mining :D
<Aleph0>
send a coin?
<Aleph0>
lol
<instagibbs>
mine coin, get it, store it, spend it for other things :P
<smooth>
Aleph0: that would work too
<smooth>
pay on connect
<instagibbs>
I suppose you could "bind" it to a peer you want to connect to
<Aleph0>
smooth: demand all new connecting nodes send some cash
<smooth>
but it does incentivize malicious receivers
<Aleph0>
which is held in trust, until challenge is successfully verified
<instagibbs>
You could also mix and match: Pay me via LN 1 satoshi or solve this memory hard puzzle"
<Aleph0>
smooth: an escrow multisig
<smooth>
or just burn the coin
<Aleph0>
smooth: thats a lot of burned coins.
<Aleph0>
instagibbs: can you do multisig escrows on LN?
<instagibbs>
Aleph0, yes
<Aleph0>
amazing.
<smooth>
Aleph0: No necessarily, it depends on the size of the payment. I mean how much is 30 second or whatever of PoW going to be worth?
<smooth>
burning coins seems about the same as hashcash
<Aleph0>
smooth: burning coins can only be done in a coin with some inflation
<instagibbs>
smooth, yeah my point was if we're burning money, why not use Bitcoin...
<Aleph0>
i think placing it in escrow is enough, and you can use larger amounts to discourage attacks.
<smooth>
instagibbs: im not sure im understanding, but that's what I was suggesting
<instagibbs>
we're concurring
<Aleph0>
smooth: do you suggest blackholing coins?
<smooth>
i wasn't suggesting it, i think some sort of pow is better
<smooth>
but i think burning is better than paying
<Aleph0>
i think larger amounts in escrow are better.
<smooth>
how do you resolve the escrow?
<Aleph0>
no risk to an honest users, huge cost to attackers
<smooth>
how does the attacker lose the coins?
<Aleph0>
smooth: multisig with a pow-challenge oracle
<instagibbs>
LN escrow for peer challenges, this is getting loops lol
<Aleph0>
for this to work, you must have LN-like mechanism
<Aleph0>
instagibbs: built-in demand for LN
<instagibbs>
you could simply tie up a 2-of-3(with third key being something junk) with a short timeout, wait for the hltc to timeout, hltc expires
<Aleph0>
the big problem would be getting first balance.
<instagibbs>
or am I just smoking here
<smooth>
Aleph0: thats one of the reasons i think pow is better
<instagibbs>
unredeemable HLTC I guess I mean
<instagibbs>
so... no hash, just "wait"
<Aleph0>
instagibbs: why not 3-rd key being challenge verification proof?
<instagibbs>
LTC, not HLTC
<smooth>
also if nodes are making payments ie means they have hot wallets which makes they a juicy target
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<instagibbs>
Aleph0, well you don't want to actually pay the person you're trying to connect to(esp them doing work to get it)
<Aleph0>
smooth: HSM
<instagibbs>
smooth, hopefully this would be small amounts
<instagibbs>
I like my LTC idea actually.
<smooth>
instagibbs: true
<instagibbs>
You tie your money up in LN with the person you want to connect to
<instagibbs>
they can't get paid by it
<instagibbs>
but they won't "sign off" on getting it back until time runes out
<instagibbs>
nevermind, doesn't make sense. Ignore.
<instagibbs>
hops would lose access to their own money for no reason
<Aleph0>
instagibbs: how would a brand new node get a balance?
<Aleph0>
you need to connect first to get a balance.
<instagibbs>
Aleph0, that's an orthogonal question imo.
<Aleph0>
why?
<instagibbs>
because you do both
<instagibbs>
cuckoo if not on LN or don't care about a bit of ram, or just pay
<instagibbs>
not an either/or
<instagibbs>
xor*
<Aleph0>
pay to get paid
<Aleph0>
i guess you could protect the high-uptime nodes like that.
<instagibbs>
i pay for gas to get to work(actually I don't but bear with me)
<instagibbs>
doesn't have to be a lot
<instagibbs>
pretty much anything is better than now
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<Aleph0>
the amount could be dynamic
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<Aleph0>
isnt this what cloudfare does, basically
<Aleph0>
with pow
<fluffypony>
yeah if you're on Tor or whatever
<fluffypony>
you have to prove you're not a robot
<smooth>
all those cloudflare tests seem solvable by current AI to me
<Aleph0>
cloudfare has a pow mode
<fluffypony>
choose all of the images that have pictures of ROADS!
<smooth>
click on street signs? seriously?
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<instagibbs>
yeah those are pretty trivial
<fluffypony>
I haven't looked at it, but the Google one that just says "click here to prove you're not a robot" and then ticks it
<fluffypony>
I wonder if that does anything besides check if it can identify you through Google's tracking system or something
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<gwillen>
fluffypony: it does a bunch of stuff
<gwillen>
it runs various tests against your JS interpreter to make sure it seems browser-like
<gwillen>
and I think it also burns a bunch of CPU
<fluffypony>
so easily defeated with PhantomJS then
<Aleph0>
doesnt check against your google profile>
<Aleph0>
?
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<tromp_>
why does new connection need to request a challenge? can't the challenge just be formed from ip and time and such?
<fluffypony>
tromp_: how does the connecting node know the time of the node it's connecting to?
<fluffypony>
ie. it can precompute a bunch within some time period and the node it's connecting to has to accept it
<tromp_>
it doesn't. it uses it's own time. the one it's connecting to can just refuse if it's too far out of whack
<fluffypony>
so basically then it has to accept all connections as valid as long as the time isn't too far out of whack
<fluffypony>
which defeats the purpose
<tromp_>
no, it only accepts requests with valid pow. but we avoid sending a separate challenge for the pow
<fluffypony>
I guess the upside of that is that the challenge is precomputed, so it doesn't have to maintain an open connection whilst it solves it
<fluffypony>
otoh if we keep it reasonable, say 1 second, then I'm not sure there's advantage to either
<fluffypony>
need to think about it some more
<smooth>
tromp_: what is the advantage you see in not sending a challenge
<tromp_>
saving an extra roudn of communication
<tromp_>
simplifying the protocol
<smooth>
im not sure incorporating IP is simplifying
<smooth>
but i guess i see a benefit in less communcation before verification
<tromp_>
isn't that present already?
<smooth>
not with proxies and such
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<smooth>
tromp_: btw what is the smallest amount of RAM that is feasible to use
<tromp_>
well i expect you can define a challenge in a way that an attacker can't re-use the same challenge for multiple peers
<fluffypony>
you'd have to use both IP addresses and the time, at a minimum
<smooth>
peer identity is not an easy problem. Bitcoin has to takes steps to avoid accidentally connecting to itself
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<smooth>
i think challenge response is likely the least complicted solution here, though maybe the efficiency of reducing communication makes more complication worth it
<tromp_>
cycle verification uses about 3KB of RAM
<fluffypony>
wow that's tiny
<smooth>
tromp_: i mean for solving
<smooth>
i was aware verification was very low
<tromp_>
that's for cycle length 42. now you need a pretty big graph to find such cycles
<smooth>
if it is require to communcicate then it places a lower bound on nodes to function
<tromp_>
but for anti-spam purposes you wouldn't have a single cycle length
<tromp_>
but a range of acceptable lengths, like 16-64
<tromp_>
which should be easy to find for graphs of 64K nodes
<tromp_>
that would take 8KB of RAM to solve
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<smooth>
is there something in the paper on how to set these parameters?
<tromp_>
a little
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<tromp_>
did you read the whole paper?
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<fluffypony>
I just read the intro and conclusion and assumed I knew everything
<fluffypony>
<- true redditor
<dEBRUYNE>
don´t forget the abstract!
<JackH>
harding, you here?
<smooth>
tromp_: i did but it has been a while
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<Aleph0>
timestamp + ip - seem to be easily pre-computable.
<tromp_>
pre computable is fine. we dont want re-usable
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<fluffypony>
Aleph0: you use both IPs, so you can't replay the attack from another node
<fluffypony>
s/attack/connection
<Aleph0>
tromp_: so you precompute 10k or so connections, into the future
<Aleph0>
store them.
<Aleph0>
then immediatetly connect to many many nodes and bring them down.
<fluffypony>
bring them down how?
<Aleph0>
connection flood.
<Aleph0>
it has to be interactive.
<smooth>
you can connection flood regardless of what happens after you connect
<fluffypony>
yeah
<Aleph0>
i still think they should just place bitcoins in escrow.
<Aleph0>
and a significant amount too. that will be a strong deterrent.
<smooth>
Aleph0: how do you do that without a connection?
<fluffypony>
Aleph0: barriers to entry to running a full node aren't great for decentralisation
<Aleph0>
maybe some kind of reputation system
<Aleph0>
built-up over time
<fluffypony>
I think the underlying network needs to be more fluid than that - you can layer identity and trust on top of it
<Aleph0>
its too early to do that, but if they network becomes much more valuable, it might become necessary to protect at least a set number of nodes, a "backbone" of sorts.
<Aleph0>
with leaves being less restrictive.
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