sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<SillyMusings>
Hello! Does anyone have 40 character or less silly musings they want me to embed into the Bitcoin blockchain?
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<nsh>
this is not really the place to solicit such things, SillyMusings
SillyMusings was banned on #bitcoin-wizards by phantomcircuit [*!*@185.41.141.*]
nsh was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by phantomcircuit [no]
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<phantomcircuit>
er
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<phantomcircuit>
derp
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<nsh>
oops :)
SillyMusings was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by phantomcircuit [no]
<nsh>
(ty)
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<oldbrew>
so much for luck
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<bsm1175321>
fluffypony: I don't really see the point in having a different PoW for p2p connections than the main mining algo. It should be the same. But one thing I plan to do is demonstrate a similar idea where p2p connections provide proof of *storage* of a portion of the UTXO set, in a scenario when the UTXO set is sharded. I'm interested to see what petertodd is going to say about this later today at MIT...
<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: our mining algo is crappy - it closes the performance gap between CPUs, GPUs, and ASICs, which is great, but then verifies like a dog
<bsm1175321>
Which coin are you talking about?
<fluffypony>
which means it's open to a DoS-style attack where an attacker chews up a node's resources
<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: Monero
<bsm1175321>
Didn't know that...
<fluffypony>
so on the one hand Cuckoo Cycle is really exciting, on the other hand changing PoW is a Pretty Big Deal (tm)
<fluffypony>
hence the on-connect PoW as a testbed
<bsm1175321>
Gotcha, interesting idea.
<nsh>
i think PoW verification needs to be pretty comparatively cheap for healthy consensus, but i can't recall the arguments exactly
<nsh>
will be in the logs for here somewhere
<fluffypony>
nsh: that's what we were talking about yesterday as well - the cheap verification, expensive-to-compute thing
<bsm1175321>
fluffypony: It will delay initial connect though. Not sure what the big-picture impact of that will be.
<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: by a second, maybe 2, when you only need 1 "real" connection to sync up it's not that bad
* nsh
nods
<bsm1175321>
Presumably the PoW target will be raised for spam protection. So it's pretty trivial to tie up a lot of nodes doing connect-PoW and drive up the connect time.
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<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: if my node is connecting to bad nodes that reject the connection I'm doing a bit of extra work on-connect, but I'm grey-listing them because they rejected my legitimately solved PoW. on the other hand, if bad nodes are connecting to me they'd have to overpower my rejections, as I'm going to reject their PoW failures. If they're just trying to connection-flood my node they can do that whether the PoW challenge is there
<fluffypony>
or not (although the challenge makes it much harder)
<bsm1175321>
The proof-of-storage I've been thinking of is just a lookup, so O(1) on connect.
<bsm1175321>
fluffypony: There's probably a way to design your way out of my criticism there.
<fluffypony>
yes - we just pile on the complexity till it works, Ethereum style
<fluffypony>
:-P
<bsm1175321>
Ha!
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<bsm1175321>
Speaking of complexity...
* bsm1175321
glares at his still-unfinished braids paper...
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<bsm1175321>
The last thing I need for that is a mechanism to limit the complexity of the rewards algorithm, and the size of a cohort (analog of a block). The reward algorithm scales as the number of beads in a cohort (aka transactions in a block). You can use the structure of the graph to explicitly punish block withholding, but if you have to look at 3 beads simultaneously to decide reward, you're talking about an O(n^3) a
<bsm1175321>
e.g. my initial O(n^3) algorithm looks at one bead in the past, one in the future, to decide a third bead's reward, so is O(n^3).
<nsh>
(you should use an irc client that knows when to split long lines ;)
<nsh>
(clipped at 'about an O(n^3) a'[lgorithm]
<nsh>
)
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<bsm1175321>
Yeah I know. :-(
<bsm1175321>
That's not so bad if n is small. So I have to keep n small, or use a simpler reward algorithm.
<nsh>
smaller cohorts means more frequent ordering events, presumably?
<nsh>
('blocks')
<zooko>
nsh: I'm choosing PoW alg for Zcash, and it's really hard to decide between cheap verification vs. GPU-resistance, so I'd be interested in this argument that cheap verification is important for consensus.
<nsh>
if someone has all the logs in an archive i'll do some grepping for the discussion i-seem-to-recall
<zooko>
Thanks.
<nsh>
or perhaps kanzure-AI already generated indices or something magical
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<maaku>
zooko: I'm not sure GPU-resistance is a good thing
<maaku>
GPU acceleration prevents mining from being dominated by botnets
<belcher>
is botnet domination actually bad for bitcoin? as long as no botnet is >50%, i suppose you could argue on a PR/social level
<maaku>
belcher: s/botnet/asic pool/ and that argument says bitcoin is doing just fine
<maaku>
historically bitcoin mining was dominated by 1-2 botnets
<belcher>
right i see, botnets are hard to get so the barrier to entry is high
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<bsm117532>
IOW, ipv6 is a poorly managed hard fork.
<bsm117532>
MX records were a soft fork.
<bsm117532>
zooko: rather than agonizing about PoW algorithms, I think it's more important that mining can't be outsourced, than to select a CPU/GPU/ASIC friendly/hostile algorithm.
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<bsm117532>
e.g. require individual transactions to be mined in such a way that the coin holder's signature covers the PoW proof.
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<bsm117532>
nsh: there are no "ordering events" because only double spends define forks. Miners don't allocate their own rewards, it is calculated by analyzing the structure of the braid, after enough time has passed that all transactions have been propagated to all nodes.
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<nsh>
whatever your equivalent of a block is, i promise you that it's an ordering even t:)
<nsh>
*event
<bsm117532>
Why? Maybe we're talking about different things. Beads *within* a cohort are partial ordered. Successive cohorts define a total order.
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<bsm117532>
In fact that's one definition of a cohort. (A set of total-orderable beads, WRT a previous such set)
<nsh>
right
<nsh>
so each cohort is an ordering event
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<nsh>
just as each block in an ordering event of transactions in bitcoin
<bsm117532>
Basically, yes.
<nsh>
which gives the network a sense of distributed proper time
<bsm117532>
Yes
<nsh>
without which the reduced BGP cannot be solved
<nsh>
afaict
<bsm117532>
What's the reduced bgp?
<nsh>
byzantine general's problem
<nsh>
that bitcoin solves by cheating a bit and introducing economics
<bsm117532>
Oh of course
<bsm117532>
I was thinking border gateway protocol...
<bsm117532>
nsh: so now I understand your previous comment: "smaller cohorts mean more frequent ordering events"
<nsh>
\o/
<nsh>
now i just need to understand it myself
<bsm117532>
Since a cohort *is* the total ordering event, the answer is yes, if you fix other parameters.
<nsh>
:)
<bsm117532>
e.g. fixed target difficulty.
<nsh>
so i wonder if oyu can allow this to vary without making the retargetting function too complex and vulnerable to e.g. oscillations
<bsm117532>
The number of beads doesn't make reference to time at all, so "more frequent" (in time) requires additional assumptions.
<bsm117532>
Yes, I am letting the target difficulty vary.
<nsh>
so that if the cost of verification becomes too high due ot the N^3 growth then you can have more frequent cohorts, or consolidate more transactions when validation load is less of a pressure
* nsh
nods
<bsm117532>
If target difficulty is allowed in some range, then cohort size is decided by the lower bound.
<bsm117532>
However, cohorts can also be made larger by a withholding attack.
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<bsm117532>
So at some point you have to discard beads that are "too late" to receive any reward.
<bsm117532>
I'm still working on how to do this bit.
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* nsh
nods
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<OP_PUSH20x00000>
Hello, I'm trying to build a smart contract at the moment and was wondering if its possible to construct an output script in such a way that it forces the spender to reveal their ECDSA private key? So far I've thought of doing something like this: you force a fixed offset for the R value in the signature and have two signatures on the stack. Then assert that both R values are equal. If both sigs are for the same inputs