sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm1175321>
Taek: nice!
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<bsm1175321>
I've thought a lot about mining single transactions as a means of mining decentralization. In particular, that the tx signature cover a PoW hash, so that only the tx creator can mine it. But then where does the block reward go? To tx aggregators?
<bsm1175321>
I've got a bit of work left to do on my paper, but I'll push my python code so you can play with incentive models.
<bsm1175321>
The problem I'm still wrestling with is that the complexity of the reward algorithm is naively O(n^3) (n=size of cohort) because of the need to find a common ancestor and descendant of every tx, so that the reward punishes block withholding. So, it's necessary to keep the cohorts small-ish or use a simpler reward algorithm.
<bsm1175321>
Taek: Couple more comments: (1) Why not point to all known (non-conflicting) tips with your new tx? Why prioritize any (or omit any?) Pointing to all tips puts the maximum work behind your tx.
<bsm1175321>
(2) I don't understand your arguments about ordering and reorgs. There's no need to put a total ordering on transactions. The notion of a cohort defines a total ordering (and an analog to blocks) -- this is probably not obvious, need to publish it. (A cohort is defined as a set of tx's such that for ALL tx's in the cohort, they are ALL descendants of the previous cohort and ancestors of the next cohort).
<bsm1175321>
There are a couple of other equivalent definitions. (For example, take siblings-of-siblings until you have a stable set -- think I used this definition in my talk)
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<bsm1175321>
(3) Reorgs should only be caused by double-spends or other conflicting transactions. Allocate the block reward by looking in the past far enough that you've seen all possible txs. Bitcoin reorgs are caused because each miner creates his own coinbase txn, and this is a kind of double-spend that causes otherwise identical blocks to conflict. By allocating the coinbase later, there are no reorgs unless there are d
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<bsm1175321>
And now I'm kind of lost about mid-way through your slides, I think our ideas have diverged.
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<kanzure>
fluffypony: believe it or not, but i am in fact skilled at the art of (intense hyper-dimensional) lurk
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<nsh>
--
<nsh>
It wasn’t easy at all. The single biggest issue that kept popping up was the actual increase of the block size limit. That's why we settled on “around 2 MB” for the purpose of finishing the letter. If we settled on a base block size of 2 megabytes, the effective size with Segregated Witness would be 3.6, and possibly 8 under adversarial conditions. But we won't really know the exact size witho
<nsh>
ut more discussions between developers and the mining community. If miners and pools are OK with 2 megabytes, that will be fine, but it could end up being slightly smaller.
<nsh>
how wo9uld the effective blocksize go up to 8MB under 'adversarial conditions'?
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<aj>
nsh: segwit allows up to 4 times the blocksize in witness data; with the blocksize upped to 2MB that would be up to 8MB of witness data
<aj>
nsh: i think the conclusion they came up with was (1MB, 4x) for segwit initially changing to (2MB, 2x) for segwith with a 2MB hardfork, which i think is effectively the equivalent of ~3MB without segwit
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<gmaxwell>
aj: that 'conclusion' came from locking several people who hadn't worked a bit on setwit in a room in pressuring them to agree to something; you should consider it meaningless.
<nsh>
but that's how they pick popes....
<gmaxwell>
I think it's a misnomer to call that adversarial--- miners could pad up a block with crap to make it take longer to communicate, yes. but they can also simply delay sending it for an almost equivilent effect. And the adversarial case that isn't being considered, which is the one more than a few blocks in the chain have already hit-- blocks that cause nearly 1MB of UTXO expansion, rather than the
<gmaxwell>
very small amount normally.
<gmaxwell>
and twiddling with the SW ratio degrades that protection.
<gmaxwell>
(and achieving a rebalancing of costing to make the limits far more strongly protect the UTXO was _the_ and _the only_ factor in the montreal discussions that got everyone saying "yea, something could be done here". I think it's a travisty that Jeff went back on that discussion and turned around and attacked the one unifying thing that came out of montreal, what a waste of time.
<nsh>
hmm
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* adlai
fantasizes about a rosy future where angry noisemakers prevent a blocksize hardfork from ever going through, leaving us with the ample room provided by the segwit compromise.
<adlai>
oops, off-/topic. sorry.
<adlai>
actually it's precisely on-topic, since there's nothing against long-term bitcoin nondevelopment.
<gmaxwell>
lol.
<gmaxwell>
Any good political system has infrastructure for deadlock coded into its DNA.
<adlai>
the political system baked into nakamoto-money is... selling it.
<adlai>
(or buying, if that's your style)
<adlai>
or has satoshi saved his keys, for the day when he must sign-off on an unnecessary yet insufficient hardfork?
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<fluffypony>
what if adlai == satoshi?
<fluffypony>
dun dun dun DUN
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<proslogion>
hi, so are we going anywhere with OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY? thanks
<JackH>
or BIP65, 112 and 113?
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<kanzure>
proslogion: i think you can use these instead: OP_WITHDRAWALPROOFVERIFY OP_REORGPROOFVERIFYOP_CHECK_VOTES_VERIFY OP_CHECKMULTISIG
<nsh>
how is a reorg proof verified?
<kanzure>
oops yes those were two separate things, OP_REORGPROOFVERIFY OP_CHECK_VOTES_VERIFY
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<aj>
JackH: bip65 is done? 68, 112 and 113 are pending versionbits implementation because classic mining messes up IsSuperMajority aiui
<JackH>
so we have to wait for versionbits before we can enable them?
<JackH>
bip65 is done, but was that not just node policy?
<aj>
65 is cltv; 68 is nSequence
<JackH>
argh, my bad, I switched them around
<JackH>
68, yes
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<JackH>
so what, we are stalling because of classic now?
<JackH>
and we cant deploy what is arguably the most important BIP's ever ?
<aj>
more of a scenic detour than an outright stall
<JackH>
but versionsbits still requires the same from miners as these 3 bips
<JackH>
so detour or not, if the classic miners blocks any feature coming from core...
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<aj>
IsSuperMajority would incorrectly count classic miners that don't implement 68/112/113 as voting for it (because their super high version is greater than 5 or whatever we're up to), versionbits just makes it possible to correctly count support
<aj>
classic has a bit under 5% of blocks, so they can't block it alone atm
<JackH>
hence this applies to 68, 112 and 113 as well
<JackH>
and there is no need to wait for versionbits
<JackH>
unless we can live with a sequential push
<aj>
without versionbits a 95% trigger would be activated with only 90.5% support (the additional 4.5% of classic nodes would put it over the limit)
<aj>
(assuming classic support doesn't increase in the meantime)
<aj>
s/classic nodes/classic blocks/
<JackH>
well node count shouldn count for much in this case
<aj>
yeah, i mistyped
<JackH>
so, either classic block discovery decreases, or we have to deploy versionbits before we can do 68, 112 and 113
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<JackH>
so what will 0.12.1 then contain in respect to the above?
<adlai>
JackH: merge it yourself! or have you not yet forked bitcoin?
* adlai
grumbles something about this being such a short-term question
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<adlai>
fluffypony: you know i'm actually just barely old enough to have been able to invent bitcoin (i read and understood the whipetater in jan '09), although i doubt i'd have had the time to write the code myself, had i thought of it myself.
<adlai>
but don't ask my deans, they definitely would think that i had enough time-not-spent-on-classes to have done so.
<fluffypony>
lol
<adlai>
although arguably, "old enough to invent bitcoin" means "stopped caring enough to shave, many moons before eternal september"
* adlai
would not have cared enough to invent bitcoin had he not heard about bitcoin first
<adlai>
(and yes, satoshi was a man. cue Carlin's "no woman would've fucked things up this badly")
<proslogion>
quote: "An important consequence of this is that Serenity introduces a model where all transactions (that satisfy basic formatting checks) are valid; transactions that are currently “invalid” will in Serenity simply have no effect (the invalid opcode in the code above simply points to an unused opcode, immediately triggering an exit from code execution). This does mean that transaction inclusion in a block is no longer a guarantee that t
<proslogion>
he transaction was actually executed; "
<proslogion>
i interpret it as:"all sorts sh*t you can come up with will go into the blocks, no matter if you pay some gases"
<adlai>
nanasho: not just blockchain, but also ~state~
<adlai>
proslogion: this is true for bitcoin, too.
<nanasho>
othercoin will centralize fast if it cant handle its blocksize
<nanasho>
with proof of stake around the corner also
<proslogion>
adlai: how? you need to pay fees to have your tx mined, in most of the cases
<adlai>
yeah but you don't need to pay fees to have your data mined.
<adlai>
(exercise left for the alert lurker)
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<proslogion>
i think with OP_RETURN you need to burn some outputs, of coz in theory you can burn 0
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<maaku>
jonasschnelli: for what it's worth, there are many useful applications for loading UTXO dumps
<maaku>
i think that's code that should exist
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<bramc>
Hey everybody. I've got a very early draft of a new BIP ready, early enough that I don't really want to send it to the list yet. Is there a sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Hvolunteer who would like to give feedback on it?
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<JackH>
what does it do
<bramc>
JackH: It adds a not valid after time to transactions
<maaku>
bramc: you know the probability of this being accepted is ~0?
<maaku>
unless you added a 100-block maturity period, but that would eliminate many (most?) use cases
<bramc>
maaku: I disagree with you on that point. There are some reasonable qualms about it, but there are strong arguments in favor and I believe I have argued it well. Notably my motivation and rationale sections are longer than most BIPs are in total.
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<bramc>
maaku: A 100 block maturity period doesn't eliminate the most important use cases. I can send you then document if you'd like to see the argument
<bramc>
Because it would be silly for me to repeat my arguments badly on IRC when you could be reading the actual document and giving useful feedback on it.
<maaku>
sorry i wouldn't have time. just wanted to save you from wasting your time :\
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<JackH>
is it on github yet bramc
<bramc>
JackH: No not on github yet, is that the preferred way to solicit feedback?
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<JackH>
I personally would like it there, but cant speak for all
<JackH>
easy browseable
<bramc>
I was thinking email, but github has handy suggested edits
<bramc>
nanasho: Unfortunately yes, the extension hooks pre-segwit suck too badly
<bramc>
Otherwise I'd have written something months ago
<nanasho>
i think segwit is an accounting trick to fool miners
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<bramc>
No segwit is a bug fix to something core to how bitcoin transactions work coupled with improved hooks for future extensions and some extra space in blocks as a bonus
<bramc>
Calling it an 'accounting trick' is rather silly. It increases effective block size. Perhaps it does that in a way which is too purple or green, the effect is the same.
<bramc>
Actual feedback would be appreciated
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* nsh
science spideysense tingles
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<nanasho>
if sigs (witness data) is not stored in blocks, how can the sig of an old (segwit) transaction reliably be stored?
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<nsh>
bramc, can you handwave through this bit? 'WRITEME details of how it's made possible by segwit and works with that go here'
<andytoshi>
nanasho: that question makes no sense. the signature data is committed to just like the rest of the data. whether it is "in a block" depends on what you consider to be a block
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<Luke-Jr>
nanotube: it is stored in blocks
<Luke-Jr>
bramc: can you mediawiki it? :/
<Luke-Jr>
bramc: preferred form for review is a fork of the bips repo
<funkenstein_>
nanasho, good question
<bramc>
nsh: Unfortunately I can't. nullc told me that it's fairly trivial after segwit and I believe him
<nsh>
kk
<nsh>
i need to better understand segwit anyway. should read up
<nanasho>
bramc, that sounds bad if you ask me
<nsh>
was just thinking about the possibility of transactions having an invalidation pubkey which means clients seeing a future transaction that includes the corresponding privkey as an 0 value input would remove it from mempool and not mine
<nanasho>
so signatures are "somewhere else", but we havent really figured this out. still segwit is due in one month if yo u believe the roadmap. crazy stuff
<nsh>
which might be complementary to blockheight expiry
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<Eliel>
nsh: segwit lays down the foundation for script language upgrades as a soft-fork. I understood that you could even add support for a completely new scripting language as a soft-fork with it.
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: signatures are not somewhere else
<nanasho>
there not part of the tx hashing process. so why should they be stored in the blockchain? they are not needed to verify the hash. (in case of segwit)
<nanasho>
*they're
<Eliel>
nanasho: they're not part of tx hashes, but they end up as part of the block hash.
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: yes they are
<Eliel>
because they're hashes separately
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: they're hashed into the block, just not the txids
<nanasho>
Eliel, care to elaborate?
<Luke-Jr>
which is kinda the point
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<Eliel>
nanasho: more accurately, in the softfork segwit, they're actually hashed into the coinbase transaction.
<nanasho>
how can old clients consider the block invalid if the hash in the coinbase is rubbish?
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<nanasho>
they wouldnt know would they?
<maaku>
nanasho: see every soft fork ever
<Eliel>
nanasho: they don't care about the coinbase input where that is stored.
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: that's what softforks are
<nanasho>
so a hash of witness data is in the coinbase transaction
<nanasho>
of all txs in the block
<bramc>
nsh: I'm not sure what the use case for that would be. The claim that transactions which can become invalidated are potentially dangerous has some validity, I'm justifying a not valid after for a very specific use case where other hacks couldn't work.
<Eliel>
nanasho: yes, a merkle root for them I think was what goes in there.
<nanasho>
ok
<nsh>
it would make things more chaotic and therefore entertaining
<nanasho>
but where do i get the witness data 2 weeks down the line? the blockchain only stores the merkle root :3 where are the sigs
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: no, the blockchain stores all the data as it does now
<Luke-Jr>
and just like you can prune now, you can prune with segwit too
<nsh>
(no, but i'm interested in the kinds of attacks that might be facilitated by transaction invalidation and you don't usually get to find out about things quickly until they exist)
<Eliel>
nanasho: old nodes won't even download it. Upgraded nodes will download it and store it.
<nanasho>
Eliel, where?
<nsh>
(i think we should make all kinds of silly decisions in non-omgsrsbsns experimental/side chains)
<Eliel>
nanasho: as part of the block.
<nanasho>
luke says, on the blockchain. you say, old nodes wont see it. how can this be if it is on the blockchain, or is it not
<Eliel>
nanasho: as far as old nodes are concerned, the witness data doesn't exist. For upgraded nodes, it's part of the block. Not that difficult.
<bramc>
Luke-Jr: I don't know mediawiki. Are you asking for me to post in a particular place?
<nanasho>
and where in the block is it stored?
<Luke-Jr>
bramc: every BIP is written in mediawiki. just copy the formatting from one
<nanasho>
for upgraded nodes to find
<Luke-Jr>
bramc: it's the format
<nanasho>
the what
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: after the outputs
<bramc>
Luke-Jr: Okay I'll do that later
<Eliel>
nanasho: The block structure has been extended with new datafields in the upgraded version. That's where it's stored.
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: the current format is: <version><inputs+signatures><output_scripts><locktime>
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: the new format is: <version><inputs><output_scripts><signatures><locktime>
<nanasho>
i see
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: currently, the txid is H(transaction)
<Luke-Jr>
with segwit, the txid is H(<version><inputs+empty signatures><output_scripts><locktime)
<nanasho>
alright
<nanasho>
and the missing part, sigs
<nanasho>
is in the coinbase
<funkenstein_>
Luke-Jr> nanasho: no, the blockchain stores all the data as it does now <-- really?
<nanasho>
it actually makes sense
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: the sigs are in the transaction after the output scripts, but not used in the txid hashing
<Luke-Jr>
funkenstein_: yes
<nanasho>
hmm
<Eliel>
nanasho: it's not actually in the coinbase as such. Only the merkle root is.
<nanasho>
yeah but you'd need all sigs to create the merkle root yourself
<funkenstein_>
hmm i am confused, i thought there was a space reduction
<nanasho>
so it is needed for verification
<nanasho>
making it part of the blockchain
<Luke-Jr>
nanasho: yes, it's part of the block
<Luke-Jr>
funkenstein_: there isn't.
<Luke-Jr>
funkenstein_: a 2 MB segwit block uses the same space as a 2 MB HF block
<nsh>
but if it was a 2MB block of pure lead vs. a 2MB block of classic features
<Eliel>
nanasho: yes, I think you got it now.
<nsh>
which would be more truthy?
<Luke-Jr>
if you're willing to *trust* old blocks, you'll be able to skip downloading parts of the blockchain (ie, better pruning), but this is a security reduction, not full nodes anymore
<nsh>
*feathers
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<Luke-Jr>
nsh: what?
<nsh>
nm, bad joke. mauled
<funkenstein_>
Luke-Jr, thank you - i will go read in more detail
<Luke-Jr>
schnorr signatures, a different softfork, can reduce the size of transactions significantly, and doing that softfork is made easier with segwit - but it is in the end a separate feature/softfork entirely
<Luke-Jr>
schnorr signatures allows you to provide 1 signature for *all* the inputs, rather than N signatures for N inputs
<maaku>
well, schnorr signature agregation, to be pedantic
<Luke-Jr>
which also means CoinJoins become much more valuable for compression
<nsh>
yeah, that proposal is great imho
<nsh>
combined with some external mechanism to facilitate wide coinjoins it would go a long way to improving a bunch of stuff at once
<Eliel>
Although, the practical effect of schnorr after segwit, for transaction throughput, is less than you might expect from the numbers.
<Luke-Jr>
I wonder if there's a way to allow miners to do the signature combining somehow
<Luke-Jr>
would be nice if the entire block could just have one sig :P
<nsh>
heh, aye...
<nsh>
i don't think you can eliminate interactivity
<maaku>
Luke-Jr: yes, that's what OWAS is
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<maaku>
it involves new crypto assumptions however
<nsh>
could be enabled as a softfork with transactions using an opcode to signify trust in the pairing crypto and allowing miners to aggregate their signatures
<nsh>
but it could be argued that this affects fidelity for people not electing to trust the crypto
<maaku>
It's not as interesting as it seems for privacy reasons though, because anyone listening on the network hears about the original transaction form, and knows the inputs + outputs
<maaku>
It's also fairly slow, compared with schnorr
<nsh>
well, it puts an ongoing storage cost on deaggregation which is nonzero
<nsh>
but utah is a big place
<Luke-Jr>
maaku: slow to verify?
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<Luke-Jr>
hmm, I wonder if it would break pruning
<maaku>
Luke-Jr: yes. Not unacceptably, but yes.
<nsh>
where acceptably is understood as/
<nsh>
?
<maaku>
yes to slow to verify, no it wouldn't break pruning
<nsh>
ah
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<nanasho>
short recap, upgraded nodes store sigs/witness data, but old nodes dont, they see anyone can spend transactions, correct?
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<maaku>
nanasho: they don't 'see' anything. they see 'other people's transactions'
<maaku>
full nodes don't bother classifying transactions as anyone can spend or otherwise
<kanzure>
and even if they did, that classification would be useless because "anyone can spend" is not a guarantee about ordering :P
<maaku>
but other than that quibble about meaning, your understanding of the technology is correct
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<nanasho>
hm ok
<nanasho>
old nodes see an empty sig ... wouldn't some people try to spend those outputs?
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<maaku>
i guess. does it matter?
<maaku>
did you know that reused P2SH addresses are anyone can spend?