sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm1175321>
In my opinion, any leader-based protocol is vulnerable to an attack that consists of (a) finding the leader and (b) DDoSing it off the net. Bitcoin's ex-post-facto block publication is a serious advantage here, because no one knows where the next block will come from. So the equivalent attack is to DDoS *all* miners off the net. I think this is a serious advantage and makes Bitcoin and similar protocols better
<bsm1175321>
This attack would keep a PAXOS-derived network stuck in an expensive leader election process.
<Taek>
that was one of the primary complaints of bitcoin-ng - when you have a known leader, there is a larger attack surface
<bsm1175321>
I've made that complaint against Bitcoin-NG too. The authors didn't really offer a satisfactory response (to me). It can be slightly mitigated, but Bitcoin wins on this point.
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<gwillen>
bsm1175321: a possible variation on Bitcoin-NG uses a simple consensus process among the last N leaders or something similar, which could help with the DoS issue if the consensus can proceed with some quorum of less than all of them.
<bsm1175321>
gwillen: by the theorems of byzantine protocols, said quorum is 2/3 of the last N leaders.
<gwillen>
(also, in either model there's not necessarily any need for the leader(s) IP(s) to be public. And once you have multiple leaders this doesn't seem any easier to attack than DDoSing the major mining pools right now.)
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<gwillen>
bsm1175321: *nods*
<bsm1175321>
I'm not saying the IP is public, just that it's discoverable.
<bsm1175321>
The longer the leader holds the position, the more likely I'll be able to figure out his IP.
<gwillen>
sure. Not necessarily more discoverable than major mining pool IPs right now though.
<bsm1175321>
Bitcoin's mining centralization problem not withstanding..
<gwillen>
and there are only a few of those to DoS, even though that's not the ideal situation but it's the actual one.
<gwillen>
Right.
<bsm1175321>
One must separately attack mining centralization, it's orthogonal to the presence/absence of a leader.
<gwillen>
(My backstory here is that I came up with something that had a passing resemblance to bitcoin-NG a few years ago, never noticed or solved the problem they use poison transactions for, which is a critical piece, and worked with them a bit after the Montreal conference.)
<bsm1175321>
I'm planning on getting them in the room in May to give a seminar about Bitcoin-NG...
* gwillen
nods
<gwillen>
I'm still looking forward to reading about your thing, it sounded like it did Bitcoin NG one better
<bsm1175321>
I also worry that even if Bitcoin-NG was absolutely the best possible idea, I don't see the academic types shepherding their idea through the process to get it integrated.
<bsm1175321>
Mine is leaderless, and closer "in spirit" to bitcoin, while achieving the fastest possible network given the network topology and latencies.
<Taek>
I think that if it was a good idea, enough would trickle down that someone else would get it through the integration process. Certainly would take a while
<Taek>
but I also don't feel like the poison transactions are a strong construction, and in general ng just seems to have weaknesses
<bsm1175321>
I'm going to have a fight with timing assumptions though. :-/ Unlike PAXOS-derived protocols, time measurement is necessary in bitcoin-derived approaches.
<gwillen>
Taek: you can fix the poison transaction stuff by a bit more brute force if you want, adding opcodes and such, I think it's still softforkable
<bsm1175321>
I was just thinking about throwing out beads who are younger than a child or older than a parent, which would force the network to converge on timing measurements, but it also introduces an attack.
<gwillen>
Taek: or at least, at one point I tried to convince someone it was
<gwillen>
so if the weakness is in the ability to detect and punish leaders who confirm conflicting transactions, I think that can be fixed (but if the problem is in the economic incentives, even given enforcement, that I'm fuzzier on)
<gwillen>
bsm1175321: time is hard. :-(
<bsm1175321>
Indeed. I haven't had to worry about it so far, but I need an algorithm to throw out delayed beads. Because analyzing a graph is hard, there's an attack in creating a very delayed bead, and forcing nodes to analyze a large subset of the braid to figure out which one to throw out.
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<gwillen>
bsm1175321: interesting. Is this something you can ameliorate by requiring bead-creators to pre-do some of the analysis that would be required, and submit it with the bead?
<gwillen>
I say this knowing zip and zilch about your protocol.
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<bsm1175321>
No...bead creation is intentionally ignorant of simultaneous things on the other side of the planet (which is one thing that lets it go really fast), so it's impossible to do such an analysis.
<bsm1175321>
Maybe I can attack this with a recursive analysis...
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<bsm1175321>
Hmmm I think that will work. More coding...
<bsm1175321>
The whole problem is that of finding cohorts (analog of blocks). When a braid branches, I can follow each child and make sub-cohorts out of them. By a recursive analysis I can find beads which have low work compared to the rest of their (sub-) cohort, and throw them out deterministically with a logarithmic algorithm...
<bsm1175321>
Seems like it should make determining a cohort N log N. I'll take it...
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<proslogion>
so if someday we know QC is coming up, maybe we can SF in some covenants to make sure outgoing txs from a P2PK script are non-fungible with others, past a certain time point, and anyone who wants to accept them must explicitly enable the support?
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<Taek>
proslogion: I don't think anyone is worried about a break in cryptography due to quantum cryptography in the next 10 years, at this point there's no clear need to fork in protections against such a situation
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<MRL-Relay>
{-othe} disagree, when its too late its too late...
<proslogion>
Taek: yeah sure i am not talking about now, but a "what if" scenario, or i would ask elsewhere :p
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<Taek>
I could see using tree-scripting as a low-cost method for inserting alternative ways to spend an output, but by and large I think most protections that you could add would require making your average transaction a lot bigger
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<Taek>
and, I believe mentioned previously, guy-fawkes signatures might serve as a good 'way out' in the event of a break - iirc the guy fawkes option is available to anyone that is using p2sh
<Taek>
(well, after a fork)
<Taek>
quantum computing would not allow an attacker to reverse the hash, which means an attacker could only spend outputs after the hash has been revealed
<Taek>
a fork would allow you to commit to a hash of the signature several blocks in advance (like 6, or maybe 100), so the chain knows what signature to look for while preventing an attacker from being able to front-run the transaction
<Taek>
because the attacker still hasn't seen the actual public key yet
<proslogion>
like the occasional "covenants" ideas out there
<nsh>
software should not decide which bitcoins have been under a mattress too long to be bitcoins
<nsh>
this is a terrible idea, QC or not
<nsh>
i'm hoping i just misread theymos' post
<buZz>
that guy still around? wow
<Taek>
nsh: assume that p2pk coins become trivial to steal. What do you do about that? Suddenly, there's a 1 million bitcoin prize to the first miner who can bury it under enough work
<nsh>
that's no worse than the owner finding the bit of paper they wrote the key on in 2009
<nsh>
except in terms of entropy expenditure
<Taek>
no, it confuses the incentive models of the whole ecosystem
<nsh>
i think the problem solving itself is better than devs undermining the principle that only a sig can spend an output
<nsh>
or affect the spendability thereof
<Taek>
also, one person finding 10,000 btc at random is not the same as one person finding 100% of all p2pk coins in existence at random
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<proslogion>
the compromise i can came up with is to make the P2PK coins non-fungible with other coins, so anyone accepting them have to explicitly enable support
<proslogion>
using a particular address format etc
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<fustkilas>
hi
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<fustkilas>
what is current thinking about proof-of-stake?
<fustkilas>
so... isnt multisig simply what bitcoin does?
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<andytoshi>
fustkilas: hi, i'm andrew poelstra
<andytoshi>
fustkilas: bitcoin supports multisignature transactions. i think what kanzure means by "multisig" is signing /blocks/ with multisignatures, which is certainly not what bitcoin does
<andytoshi>
this amounts to a federation of signers deciding on transation ordering, i think we usually call this a "federated trust model"
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<andytoshi>
fustkilas: the first couple pages of http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf (which i also had a hand in writing) talk a bit about different trust models and what bitcoin does. i think pos.pdf also does now
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<kanzure>
fustkilas: no i mean multisig for block signing. this is what at least elements doe-- oh i see andytoshi has mentioned this.
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<fustkilas>
hullo
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<nsh>
no, i'm Spartandrewticus!
<nsh>
(and so is my wife)
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<nsh>
[old] ' Abstract: Bitcoin is the first and most popular decentralized cryptocurrency to date. In this work, we extract and analyze the core of the Bitcoin protocol, which we term the Bitcoin {\em backbone}, and prove two of its fundamental properties which we call {\em common prefix} and {\em chain quality}. Our proofs hinge on appropriate and novel assumptions on the ``hashing power'' of the advers
<nsh>
ary relative to network synchronicity; our results are shown to be tight under high synchronization. ' -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/765
<nsh>
(i just thought 'network synchronicity' was a quaint turn of phrase)
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<kanzure>
nsh: make me a thermodynamic system that can export the efficencies of economy of scale as an output
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<kanzure>
probably powpay but scaled and normalized against all the other submissions in a time window
<nsh>
i don't understand the request
<nsh>
thermodynamic systems tend towards energetic economies of scale due to complexity effects anyway, given vague sufficient conditions. jiggles like to conmiggle
<kanzure>
well i mean the problem is economies of scale, so at minimum we should be looking at research that makes discrete variables about economy of scale itself heh