sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<maaku>
ggreer: speaking generally (I have no specific knowledge here), advisors usually take the best ideas from their grad students
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<maaku>
What is the largest k-of-n multisig that can be accomplished on plain (non-segwit) bitcoin?
<maaku>
I mean this in a wizardly way, not #bitcoin. The redeem script has a 520 byte push limitation. Is there some tricky way to get the pubkeys out of the redeem script? Has anyone investigated what a true upper bound on k-of-n would be?
<maaku>
obviously having hash160 reduces the amount of data that needs to be there by 12 bytes per pubkey.. but for large k-of-n those bytes end up being used by DUP/DIP trickery
<JackH>
DIP?
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<bsm1175321>
I think if I were to design a new coin, I would include the concept of expiration dates for the UTXO set (because, keys get lost). This is pretty obviously a good thing for pure data storage (e.g. a hash of a proof-of-purchase might be stored for 30 days), but I think it would be good for coins too. Because people lose their keys, and this is an effective deflationary force of unknown size.
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<aj>
maaku: OP_PICK/OP_HASH160/OP_EQUALVERIFY would let you verify them with only 4 of those 12 bytes i think? 25 bytes per key would let you do n=20 afaics? (ie <n+1> PICK <k> EQUALVERIFY { <n+1> PICK HASH160 <pkh> EQUALVERIFY } <n> CHECKMULTISIG
<aj>
oh, the n+1's should be decreasing i suppose
<aj>
(or i should've said ROLL instead of PICK)
<bsm1175321>
Hmmm... @maaku,aj: is bitcoin script expressive enough to verify a multisig schnorr signature?
<phantomcircuit>
ggreer, it's generally a good idea to ignore those charts
<phantomcircuit>
they're basically never accurate
<phantomcircuit>
you can see where their node was restarted in the graph too which im 90% sure will screw up the data
<ggreer>
are you saying the mempool hasn't gone from 2ish MB to 40ish MB in the past week?
<JackH>
which python lib is the latest one to use? peter todds?
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<phantomcircuit>
ggreer, im saying that the public data on this is almost entirely unreliable
<phantomcircuit>
im working on gathering more reliable information on this now
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<ggreer>
I'm wondering what evidence would convince you then. in what way would all the public data be skewed? I linked to the prettiest chart, but other independently-created charts agree with that one
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<maaku>
today I learned that Merkle had something approximately isomorphic to hashcash as early as 1974 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle's_Puzzles
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<maaku>
aj: Ah, OP_ROLL. Cool thanks that's a significant improvement.
<maaku>
too bad we don't have a 128-bit hash, which would be sufficient for my use case
<aj>
maaku: (PICK includes DUP, ROLL doesn't)
<maaku>
bsm1175321: key trees need OP_CAT as well
<maaku>
or really, OP_CHECKMERKLEBRANCHVERIFY
<maaku>
JackH: depends on what you're trying to do
<maaku>
JackH: also, #bitcoin-dev I would assume
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<aj>
ggreer: my current mempool (with no min fee) is 300MB, and has been for the month i've been running that node...
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<maaku>
ggreer: Those numbers are meaningless because if you generated a bunch of dust outputs (e.g. during the last half dozen "stress tests") you can spend dust->dust in transactions that will never hit the block chain ever, but will inflate those numbers
<maaku>
I'm pretty sure with the amount of dust on the chain you could generate 1GB mempools easily, and it'd be totally meaningless
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<kanzure>
maaku: there was an interesting intuitive explanation of the origin of merkle's puzzles, let me see if i can pull it up
<kanzure>
"The first realization, of course, was that if both the computer and the terminal were deterministic, then of course you could compromise the system, if you knew the initial state and you knew the traffic over the communications line. So I fairly quickly concluded that there had to be some random component. And then it was simply a question of how to utilize that random component in a way which would provide confusion to the ...
<kanzure>
... eavesdropper that would grow more rapidly than the confusion of either the two parties communicating."
<kanzure>
"And one night I was contemplating how it is that... What was the problem that I was considering specifically? I think I was trying to figure out the problem of you're trying to log into a computer in some secure fashion and the computer security has been compromised and has since been sealed up again. I was trying to figure out how to re-establish secure communications. And as I was thinking about it, it basically occurred to me that ...
<kanzure>
... I was unable to prove that full disclosure of the complete state both of the computer and of the person communicating with it (and presumably they would have a terminal with which they were communicating with a computer) it occurred to me that I was unable to prove that under those circumstances, security would necessarily be compromised. So I began trying to figure out, was there some way of showing clearly that if you compromised ...
<kanzure>
... both computer and the terminal which was communicating with the computer, whether you could then prove that in the absence of some secure channel, some secret channel like a courier, whether you could prove that in fact security had been compromised. And as I thought about it, I realized that not only could I not prove it, it was not even clear that it was correct. So I began thinking about it, and then over the next few days I ...
<kanzure>
... figured out the puzzles technique."
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<ggreer>
"The mempool data you see is 72 hours of unconfirmed transactions, less any double spends whose conflicted transactions have been confirmed."
<ggreer>
so restarting would bring tradeblock's figures to 0, but it won't grow without bound like a typical bitcoin client
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<Lightsword>
ggreer, does tradeblock have a minrelaytxfee set?
<ggreer>
not sure. I'd bet >0 though
<funkenstein_>
there's no incentive to relay TXs or maintain a mempool other than altruistic, right?
<ggreer>
otherwise it'd be too easy to game the stat
<Lightsword>
mempool is more for your own use
<ggreer>
*>0.00001
<Lightsword>
is anyone tracking how many transactions are using opt-in RBF?
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<Zarok>
Hello
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<bsm1175321>
maaku: your link describes an early version of Diffie-Hellman (without a solution), not hashcash. How is that related to hashcash?
<bsm1175321>
Rather it's a linear vs quadratic : honest vs attacker complexity D-H, which as the article states, is not terribly useful. Still don't see what has to do with hashcash...
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<maaku>
bsm1175321: If I understand Merkle puzzles correctly, it gates access / secures the communication line based on a puzzle that has assymetric difficulty
<maaku>
So I precompute some data, you pick a nonce, and we can communicate securely, at least until an evesdropper does a not insignificant (for 1974) amount of work
<maaku>
The application of assymetric puzzles in order to rate limit and / or make attackers do work is essentially hashcash
<maaku>
Just a different puzzle here...
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<funkenstein_>
maaku hmm interesting, quadratic complexity consensus. would it work?
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<myeagleflies>
hellp
<myeagleflies>
hello
<myeagleflies>
how to get information about unspent transactions from bitcoind? so far I have found gettxoutsetinfo which just returns some stats
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<fluffypony>
myeagleflies: you can ask in #bitcoin or in #bitcoin-dev
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<myeagleflies>
I think I found it
<myeagleflies>
getrawmempool
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<maaku>
Any wizards going to be in Cambridge, MA this weekend?
<kanzure>
i'll be there
<maaku>
awesome! i'm there friday - monday
<kanzure>
same.
<maaku>
I'm not sure if anything was planned for Monday. I heard rumors but no details
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<Taek>
maaku: andytoshi and I as well (I live in Cambridge). I could host something on Monday
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<maaku>
Taek: we should definately meet up. I need to catch up with andytoshi on some work related stuff anyway
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<Taek>
maaku: the MIT Media lab has given us a room that we can use on Monday, it holds about 15 people. I believe we have it from 8am to 6pm. (all wizards/researchers/etc welcome)