sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<e0>
anyone managed to get bitcoind to compile with asan?
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<Taek>
"New blocks in this chain are only accepted by a node if their offsets are plausible." -> this seems too subjective to be workable
<Taek>
though, in some systems just being able to use something like the sun to calibrate your local time might be enough
<Taek>
and the stars at night
<Taek>
I wonder how accurate you could get with some cutting-edge computer vision + a cellphone that's taking pictures of the sun. Within 10 minutes seems reasonable, maybe even under 1 minute
<Taek>
<gmaxwell> Taek: competitions don't make sense unless you can define requirements.
<Taek>
I did mean to imply that a competition would set reasonable requirements
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<Taek>
it was discussed in part earlier today. Quick to verify, botnet resistant, yet a home enthusiest could be reasonably within profitability of an economies-of-scale corporation
<Taek>
I know you've argued in the past energy-expensive algorithms are better than hardware-expensive algorithms (such as proof-of-diskspace), but hardware-expensive algorithms may benefit home enthusiests
<Taek>
power is expensive if you live in a city. Shipping a hardware-expensive machine to yourself may not be as expensive
<Taek>
especially if it does not take up much floorspace
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<fluffypony>
Taek: botnet resistance is impossible
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<fluffypony>
also I'm of the opinion that botnets don't hurt the ecosystem much - they increase hashrate, selling the mined coins increases distribution, and if they don't keep their stuff updated they get forked off the network
<nsh>
running a node is great. running a lot of nodes is also great
<nsh>
running too many nodes and trying to cheat is not great, but afaik no botnet owners have exercised such ambitions on the bitcoin network, not is it viable anymore
<nsh>
(controlling other people's computers without permission is nominally not-great, of course, but it's also exactly what happens to everyone's computers all day long with the exception of richard stallman)
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<smooth>
botnet nodes are supposedly better maintained than regular PCs
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<Taek>
Fluffypony: Bitcoin has good botnet resistance. The need for ASICs means your 1 million node botnet is not very useful in terms of hashrate
<Taek>
Also, botnets are bad because of decentralization. Iirc Bitcoin used to have 1-2 dominant botnets and that was a big risk, if the botnet owners had decided to abuse their hashpower they may have been able to deal damage.
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] why would they chose to destroy their income, thats non sense
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] there is no economic incentive to act other than a normal pool operator
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] prolly even better to have a ton of botnets online than 4 big pools
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<kanzure>
zero knowledge contingent payments could be used to do proof-of-storage (i don't mean for proof-of-work replacement), the verification program can check basic things like hashes or an encrypted message from the buyer that specifies offsets and ranges of bytes to check.
<kanzure>
the verification program is obfuscated, right? can you safely insert private keys into that program?
<fluffypony>
Taek: on the flip side, I'm not convinced that the clustering that ASICs have caused has left us in a better position than dominant botnets
<helo>
fluffypony: it would be pretty amusing if botnets were dominant in mining, and they did a honest job at it
<fluffypony>
helo: well what are the incentives for them being dishonest? they want to fire and forget and just make money, they're far less capitalistic than the Bitcoin mining community
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<helo>
right! it could actually work okay (if they decided to mine transactions in their blocks)
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<fluffypony>
oh I thought you were saying "it would be pretty amusing" as in "it would be pretty improbable"
<fluffypony>
we've observed that they just embed cpuminer-multi or whatever in their botnet software, and point it at a pool they run
<fluffypony>
pool is running completely stock software
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<instagibbs>
i was about to say, there's no reason to believe botnets wouldn't run on a pool themselves
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<helo>
(if you'll pardon the subpar wizardry...) with LN fully running and heavily used, transactions on the blockchain may generally be entities "taking to chain" to resist fraud?
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<helo>
so to run with the legal system analogy, the network will be secured with lawyer fees
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<davehoover>
helo: that's my understanding of LN. channels are contracts between two parties, and hitting the blockchain is like going to court. (it should be the exception, not the rule)
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<amiller>
there must be other examples too where thre's an expensive but somewhat rarer circumstance, not just legal
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<helo>
the legal system analogy seems to be very well suited
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<helo>
e.g. the property that there may be a (prohibitively) high cost to seek protection
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<helo>
hopefully the property that the legal system can rule incorrectly doesn't correspond to LN
<amiller>
helo, yeah also you can get in a scenario where you need a transaction confirmed on chain before a timer expires
<amiller>
if that happens during a congestion period or something then that can be risky or expensive
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<helo>
right. there have been many more questions about LN lately, so i need to understand its potential shortcomings. thanks
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<nanasho>
how can i reach a dev from the blockchain.info API ?
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<fluffypony>
nanasho: wrong room
<fluffypony>
nanasho: try emailing them, or ask in #bitcoin
<nanasho>
did
<nanasho>
thx
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