sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
tromp_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
jaekwon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Tiraspol has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
belcher has quit [Quit: Leaving]
wizkid057 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
voxelot_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot_ is now known as voxelot
wizkid057 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PaulCapestany has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meZee has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jarret has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meZee has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meZee has quit [Excess Flood]
amiller has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
meZee has joined #bitcoin-wizards
meZee has quit [Excess Flood]
wallet42 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
meZee has joined #bitcoin-wizards
amiller has joined #bitcoin-wizards
amiller is now known as Guest86209
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
r0ach has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
RedEmerald has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
RedEmerald has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jarret has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jarret_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jarret has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
btcdrak has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Iriez has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justanotheruser has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chris2000 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[_smitty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
supasonic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sparetire has quit [Quit: sparetire]
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
Hey, sorry to potentially waste your time, but someone pointed this out to me: https://blockstack.org/blockstack.pdf ... and I was wondering if people here have seen it, and if it's as thoroughly broken as I assume it probably is.
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
(Sec. 4.5 looks particularly sketchy at first glance)
<bsm117532>
FWIW I know one of the authors and respect him, I would not assume it's crap at first glance, but I will look...
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
they appear to be using social media posts as a consensus-achieving mechanism...?
btcdrak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
Yeah so looking at their paper sec. 4.5, they talk about a bunch of stuff they do with the consensus hash, but they hand wave over the fact that the consensus hash needs to be bootstrapped from a trusted source. At least, that's how I read it.
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Changing host]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Don_John has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jarret_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jarret_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has quit []
<bsm117532>
Yes, this community has a problem in general differentiating carefully thought-out ideas from "I've never written a line of code in my life, but I had this amazing idea on the shitter today!"
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
bsm117532: I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to?
<bsm117532>
Referencing blog posts, bitcointalk, reddit, mailing lists, twitter, IRC as sources of authoritative info. (or github)
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
I can't tell if you're making fun of me or commenting about someone else. (Sorry, text-based communication is a bit ambiguous in tone.)
<bsm117532>
Oh no not making fun of anyone.
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
ok
<bsm117532>
My background is academic...we have a process for separating the wheat from the chaff. This space is extremely noisy, and referencing random websites is part of the reason.
<bsm117532>
And I'm going to read that paper tomorrow, it's interesting. Too tired now though.
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
ok, no worries. I probably should get sleep too
<bsm117532>
Sorry i can't offer any interesting comments on it tonight.
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
I'll try to idle in here, feel free to ping me when/if you have comments on that paper
<bsm117532>
Will do, sleep well.
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
DougieBot5000 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<fluffypony>
bsm117532: it's borderline "just get the blockchain from a trusted peer" :-P
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<pigeons>
thats what ethereum reccomends
freekevin is now known as trumbo
trumbo is now known as freekevin
CrazyTruthYakDDS has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CrazyTruthYakDDS has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tromp_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
supasonic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
zm4c1n3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
instagibbs_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RedEmerald_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RedEmerald has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
zmachine has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
instagibbs has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jannes has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
qawap has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qawap has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
danielsocials_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CrazyTruthYakDDS has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
danielsocials_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Quit: Quitte]
adlai has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
tromp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
andytoshi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[_smitty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[_smitty] is now known as Guest14705
Guest14705 is now known as [_smitty]
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
instagibbs_ is now known as instagibbs
danielsocials has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tasoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
skyraider_ has quit []
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<instagibbs>
Luke-Jr, " old nodes are presented with two equal options: follow the hardfork, or follow the softfork"
<instagibbs>
can you back up and explain
<instagibbs>
didn't catch it
<fluffypony>
instagibbs: he's driving
sparetire has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012>
I think the softfork is "not to follow the hardfork"
<instagibbs>
i dont get who is doing what there
<instagibbs>
wrt soft-hardfork
<jl2012>
if miners are abusing power to have a bad soft-hardfork, people will softfork themselves away from that fork
<instagibbs>
oh i see
dabura667 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<instagibbs>
so no one is vanilla hard-forking
<instagibbs>
"follow the soft-hardfork, or follow the softfork"
<jl2012>
yes
<instagibbs>
first blush I like it
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<instagibbs>
you regain much of the power to reject such a change, without getting "left behind" on a weak PoW chain without taking action
dabura667 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012>
if there is no enough PoW left in the weak chain, it doesn't work
<jl2012>
in that case, the choice will be soft-hardfork vs hardfork
<jl2012>
either a difficulty reset, or a new PoW
<instagibbs>
yep
<Luke-Jr>
fluffypony: not yet
<instagibbs>
jl2012, of course we should be comparing the failure modes of soft-hardfork vs hardfork
<jl2012>
don't get your question
<instagibbs>
it wasn't a question
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<instagibbs>
soft-hardfork allows unaware users to stay on the "majority" PoW until action can be taken.
supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012>
in SHF, people will see empty blocks, can't receive any tx, and will see their txs never confirmed
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012>
we may need to make tx with nVersion==1 non-standard (but still valid)
<Taek>
can we pick a better name? I'm trying to imagine explaining this to reddit and it's not going well
<jl2012>
Taek: you mean soft-hardfork?
<Taek>
yeah
<jl2012>
I think Luke-Jr likes this name. Me too
<Taek>
I do like the concept though. If there's a hardfork that gets majority hashrate, the client should ~shut down until the user can figure out what's going on and what action should be taken
<instagibbs>
yeah the txn thing may be a bit tricky. Users might "dump" all their funds in the soft-hardfork chain accidentally.
<neha>
Has anyone seen this yet? "Enhancing Bitcoin Security and Performance with
<jl2012>
instagibbs: yes, so need to make old tx nonstatndard
<instagibbs>
jl2012, you mean in softfork-softhardfork? (dangit we need better names :P )
<jl2012>
what's that.....
<instagibbs>
who is doing the nonstandardization, i mean
<instagibbs>
the people softforking away from the softhardfork?
<instagibbs>
malicious softhardforking wouldn't care enough I presume
<Taek>
"ByzCoin employs communication trees to optimize transaction commitment and verification under normal operation while
<Taek>
guaranteeing safety and liveness under Byzantine faults,
<Taek>
up to a near-optimal tolerance of faulty group members
<Taek>
among 3f+2 total." -> I haven't read more than the abstract but I get uncomfortable when I see things like 3f+2
<jl2012>
after a SHF, v1 tx should become nonstandard, so non upgraded people won't accidentally spend their coins on the new chain
<instagibbs>
jl2012, in a non-malicious variant, ok
<Taek>
generally speaking the incentives are not aligned correctly when people start talking about paxos-style algorithms
<jl2012>
you mean it's ok to allow old wallet to spend, in a non-malicious SHF?
<instagibbs>
no, I was asking what scenario you are thinking of
<jl2012>
problem is non-upgraded wallets will see their tx never confirmed, and may try to resend with a different UTXO
<instagibbs>
I understand
<jl2012>
it's suggested by adam3us
<kanzure>
neha: thanks
<instagibbs>
if miners are evil they just won't allow newer transaction versions, which doesn't allow it. But hopefully every non Evil person would just ignore that chain.
<instagibbs>
softfork away
<neha>
taek: yes, it' sa different model.
<kanzure>
neha: "dynamically forming hash power-proportionate consensus groups representing recently-successful block miners" okay this sounds like bitcoin-ng and weak blocks and stuff
<neha>
kanzure: yep they say they use an idea from there
<Taek>
(beat me to posting the same quote lol)
<neha>
i have not dug into it yet, just curious if it's come up here yet
<kanzure>
Taek: the truth is that we are really all the same person
<nsh>
other-me is lying. belay that
<kanzure>
which one is the other you?
PRab_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
* nsh
strikes the zen gong
PRab has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
PRab_ is now known as PRab
<instagibbs>
I do like how bsm117532 has gotten old and cynical quite fast on the "new ideas" front. Feels like yesterday when I was chiding him for Yet Another DAG idea.
<Taek>
it's a curse of the channel. The price of wizardlyness is eternal pessimism.
<kanzure>
i would call it a sort of pragmatic optimism
<nsh>
you might consider it respect for complexity, rather than pessimism towards human artifice
<nsh>
we have some appreciation for the formidable journey, but we still strive forward
<Luke-Jr>
you can't softfork out v1 transactions!
<Luke-Jr>
who knows how many nLockTime'd transactions are out there
<kanzure>
huh? can't you count?
<kanzure>
oh right....
jaekwon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321>
Ha! I've been cynical of new ideas long before I showed up here ;-)
jarret_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321>
Jeremy_Rand_2: so the consensus hash of sec. 4.5 of the paper you cite has been discussed here before. More commonly people here talk of UTXO set commitments. But computing that is difficult and work is ongoing. It looks like their Consensus Hash is a poor-man's kind of UTXO set commitment. I don't understand why a trusted source is needed...why not just commit to it in each block?
mesmer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hamburglar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PRab_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012>
thanks!
smooth_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gmaxwell_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
metric_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[ace]_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jrayhawk_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aj_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gavinand1esen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gmaxwell_ has quit [Changing host]
gmaxwell_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roasbeef_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Keefe_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
warptangent_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
morcos_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justanot1eruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gielbier has quit [Changing host]
gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards
seg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ericp4 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PRab has quit [*.net *.split]
melvster has quit [*.net *.split]
jannes has quit [*.net *.split]
instagibbs has quit [*.net *.split]
justanotheruser has quit [*.net *.split]
libertalis has quit [*.net *.split]
seg has quit [*.net *.split]
d9b4bef9 has quit [*.net *.split]
catern has quit [*.net *.split]
warptangent has quit [*.net *.split]
gavinandresen has quit [*.net *.split]
jrayhawk has quit [*.net *.split]
isis has quit [*.net *.split]
epscy has quit [*.net *.split]
eric has quit [*.net *.split]
roasbeef has quit [*.net *.split]
bildramer has quit [*.net *.split]
poggy has quit [*.net *.split]
smooth has quit [*.net *.split]
Keefe has quit [*.net *.split]
bsm1175321 has quit [*.net *.split]
nanotube has quit [*.net *.split]
metric has quit [*.net *.split]
[ace] has quit [*.net *.split]
gmaxwell has quit [*.net *.split]
morcos has quit [*.net *.split]
aj has quit [*.net *.split]
poggy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ericp4 is now known as eric
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
seg_ is now known as seg
isis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
catern has joined #bitcoin-wizards
instagibbs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
epscy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
bsm1175321 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nanotube has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gmaxwell_ is now known as gmaxwell
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
morcos_ has quit [Quit: leaving]
morcos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zm4c1n3 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
nuke1989 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
nivah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Ivan_Ivanausqui has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ivan_Ivanausqui has quit []
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coinoperated has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<brand0>
bsm117532, I believe the thinking is that a trusted source is the only way to achieve SPV
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321>
brand0: I don't understand why...
<brand0>
why what?
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<bsm1175321>
SPV requires a trusted source, once you have UTXO set commitments or their Consensus Hash idea...
<bsm1175321>
s/^/Why /
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Yoghur114 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MrHodl has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dextertzu has left #bitcoin-wizards ["WeeChat 1.3"]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adlai has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<brand0>
because how can you validate the consensus hashes without parsing the bitcoin blockchain
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<bsm1175321>
A UTXO set commitment (I'm thinking) is a commitment to the entire history of transactions.
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
Don_John has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
ebfull and I are about to perform the first Zero-Knowledge Contingent Payment (zkcp) live on the bitcoin network as part of a demo he's doing at FC16.
<gmaxwell>
you can join ##zkcp to watch in IRC.
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Guest86209 is now known as amiller
amiller has quit [Changing host]
amiller has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
bsm117532: the issue is that the consensus hash they're using is placed in an OP_RETURN output by users of the system; it's not a consensus softfork and it's not part of the coinbase
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
so if you want to figure out if the hash is correct, you need to either parse the entire blockchain yourself (not a lightweight client), or you need to find a trusted source to tell you a correct consensus hash
<bsm1175321>
Ah I see. Makes sense, AFAIK no one has made a working UTXO set commitment code yet.
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<gmaxwell>
there have been several implementations, but they have a large performance impact; enough to make their value questionable.
<gmaxwell>
bootstraping off a commitment is SPV security; the usecases where SPV security is enough and not enough are perhaps somewhat narrow. :)
Jeremy_Rand_2_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Jeremy_Rand_2_ is now known as Jeremy_Rand_2
<Jeremy_Rand_2>
What bothers me is that Onename has been repeatedly claiming that their so-called consensus hash enables "SPV-like" functionality, which I think is misleading since to get lightweight functionality with it, you need a trusted source to give you a consensus hash
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<andytoshi>
hi gmaxwell, i'm at the FC16 conference watching the demo. sipa is filming, not sure if he'll be able to chat
<andytoshi>
ebfull is doing the presentation now, looks good
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<coinoperated>
he has a smartphone, doesn't he?
danielsocials has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has quit [Quit: Leaving]
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
danielsocials has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<Anduck>
what if coinA and coinB make 2-2 multisig to timelock coins / something and use ZKCP to swap the coins? could it be done
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
jrayhawk_ is now known as jrayhawk
zorba_tg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<zorba_tg>
gmaxwell: Great read. Can the following be acomplished with ZKCP: A payment, bigger then the block reward, will be sent in return to a block solution?
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<gmaxwell>
zorba_tg: as in paying people to withold blocks?
<wallet42>
zorba_tg: that's interesting.
<wallet42>
unfortunatly your transaction has to be mined into a block
<wallet42>
and you dont know the prevblock then
<wallet42>
so you can not ask someone to create a block on top of the block your transaction is mined into
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<zorba_tg>
gmaxwell: more generaly, can ZKCP allow an atomic payment to a miner in return for including specific data in block?
RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
No-- the payment only begins after the information is in the possession of the seller. Though transaction fees accomplish what you're describin.
<gmaxwell>
describing*
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
RoboTedd_ has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jarret has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: where is ajtowns writeup of that single show signature?
Yoghur114 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<gmaxwell>
found it
<aj>
gmaxwell: "The GGPR'12 cryptosystem requires a trusted setup, but for the ZKCP application this is no real limitation since the buyer can perform it." -- not sure if it's a different system, but my understanding was that if the buyer chooses the params, they could construct them so that the proofs leaked information
<aj>
gmaxwell: in any event, very cool
<gmaxwell>
aj: thats not the case.
<gmaxwell>
unless there is some new paper I'm unaware of, but it's hard to see how thats possible.
<gmaxwell>
aj: now, the party that does the setup could trivially construct fake proofs against their verification key.
<kanzure>
and the party that does setup, instead of choosing to construct fake proofs, could more easily cheat by picking a hash and preimage through less complex means. but this is basically back to selling hash preimages without the zero-knowledge aspects.
<aj>
gmaxwell: i'll take your word for it. (the only reference that i found as to what "trusted" actually meant for this was about as authoritative as an irc snippet, and i don't even remember what paper it was in)
<gmaxwell>
aj: Theorem 6 of the GGPR'12 paper, its on page 26.