sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<adlai>
please, for the academically challenged -- what exactly is a 'position' paper?
<bsm1175321>
instagibbs: never trust, always verify. ;-)
<instagibbs>
you can trust after verifying ;)
<bsm1175321>
adlai: eh I hadn't noticed that. That means it contains no results, only blathering and speculation.
<adlai>
ah, thank you for clarifying.
<instagibbs>
not unlike this channel :)
<adlai>
nothing wrong with properly-labelled bullshit
<bsm1175321>
I skimmed it, it doesn't contain anything I didn't already know AFAICT but if someone needs to know why scaling is a problem in a short 16 pages...
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<maaku>
careful you'll find many of the authors here ;)
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<bsm1175321>
maaku: heheee I know, I'm just not the intended audience of that paper. ;-)
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<JackH>
what is a precursor to the blockchain model used in Bitcoin? what is the closest we come to it practically? There must be better or more elaborate solutions than a DB with API key's and CRON jobs as backups
<adlai>
there have been mentions of git, although the reason hash blocks are chained is rather orthogonal to bitcoin's trust minimization through chained PoW
<JackH>
and I am not thinking the crypto attempts here, like mojonation or b money/bitgold
<JackH>
yes, well, I am not even looking for that in specific, but more like a database storage model that allows for managed signing, a bit like blockstreams model
<JackH>
aka liquid
<adlai>
git, with signed tags/commits?
<bsm1175321>
JackH: Take a look at PAXOS, Raft, and PBFT.
<JackH>
ah yes someone mentioned PAXOS before
<bsm1175321>
They seek to "identify" nodes. Bitcoin/PoW replaces identification of nodes with proof of work.
<adlai>
BGP might fit this dragnet?
<JackH>
I was more looking at this in terms of big data, rather than security, but big data with a shared db space
<bsm1175321>
There are some great presentations about Raft. People are finally starting to grok that "permissioned blockchains" are really PBFT in disguise -- and totally unused in the shared db space.
<bsm1175321>
So the relevant topics in the shared db space are PAXOS, Raft and similar projects (e.g. Apache Zookeper)
<JackH>
awesome, thanks bsm1175321, as I would like to have this when people talk about BLOCKCHAIN as some sort of magic trick, when they actually mean Bitcoin
<bsm1175321>
JackH: They're always (depending on the context/assumptions) going to land on PBFT or Proof-of-work as what they actually mean when they say "blockchain".
<JackH>
I totally agree, its just frustrating as I did not have any other model
<JackH>
now I do
<JackH>
so when someone decides to speak stupid about blockchain I can show them these models
<JackH>
gonna read up on them to understand what they do exactly
* bsm1175321
just undercut his paid consulting work... :-/ But none of this is secret.
<bsm1175321>
Yes, Masters/DAH do grok that PBFT is what they're really after.
<JackH>
“The technology,” she says, describing the cryptographic masterstroke in laymen’s terms, “is simply a newer, better, more sophisticated form of database technology.”
<JackH>
this is frustrating to read
<bsm1175321>
I'm rather happy that DAH has come out and stated that directly, it cleans up a lot of confusion in the space.
<instagibbs>
don't read it then :)
<JackH>
haha
<JackH>
problem is all the clones go into repeat mode after they read the articles
<instagibbs>
liquid/fedpeg is nice in the sense that bitcoin companies already use bitcoind. You get some level of BFT depending on the setup, and people understand the underlying protocol since it's just signatures instead of mining.
<JackH>
yeah in this respective it makes perfect sense
<bsm1175321>
instagibbs: I worry that "signing blocks" is naive and does not take into account the considerable literature on BFT. It's also only able to tolerate 33% failure/fraud rate, and as soon as you decide you're going to allow dynamic membership, you open up security holes big enough to drive a truck through.
<JackH>
what is BFT doing in this casE?
<bsm1175321>
That said, PBFT is a real thing and has its uses.
<bsm1175321>
JackH: don't understand your question...
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<JackH>
I mean, from my understanding BFT wont matter much in Liquid since its perfectly pegged to BTC, so its value cant be lost?
* adlai
cuts out one line from JackH's fortune.com link: "Bitcoin happens to be one use-case for the technology, It is actually a distinct invention with its own benefits"
<adlai>
amazing what magic is made by omission of unimportant words
<JackH>
the article is garbage
<JackH>
but, people read it, and believe it
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<instagibbs>
JackH, it's essentially a huge multisig wallet
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<bsm1175321>
I don't think BFT has any role to play in Liquid, but someone correct me...
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<pigeons>
JackH: someone mentioned zfs slef validating merkle tree as a similar structure to bitcoin blockchain that preceded it
<JackH>
zfs slef??
<pigeons>
self
<pigeons>
zfs
<JackH>
ahh
<JackH>
well someone somewhere probably used a db with some of the features found in Bitcoin, like merkle-tree's or multisig access or similar
<pigeons>
zfs has sha256 hashes as tree for integrity
<JackH>
just wondered to what extend different approaches were used. Most DB's seems to be rather simplistic in term of shared access
<pigeons>
even some convergence features
<bsm1175321>
JackH: The multisig/crypto is often conflated with access control of nodes. They're different things. There's no reason you can't add validation rules and signatures to a standard database.
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<JackH>
I totally agree
<bsm1175321>
(but no one does it, yet -- it's application layer logic)
<JackH>
just trying to get an overview
<JackH>
I am speaking at a conference
<bsm1175321>
Oh, what conference?
<JackH>
and something tells me it would be a good idea to bring up "regular non blockchain models"
<instagibbs>
bsm1175321, eventually I think there's supposed to be a liquid fedpeg whitepaper, I'll let you know
<bsm1175321>
JackH: Jeez you have the GCHQ director speaking. That should be fun.
<JackH>
ah well, doesnt matter
<JackH>
thing is this whole blockchain debate
<JackH>
that has gone way of course
<JackH>
too much misunderstanding, too much magic dust when people explain it
<JackH>
its seriously insane that a billion dollar industry is popping up around something that is partially made up
<bsm1175321>
Hey I'm happy to get paid to correct their misconceptions. ;-)
<JackH>
everyone says that ;)
<JackH>
its on a rinse repeat mode daily
<JackH>
mention Bitcoin however, and people look at you weird
<JackH>
or....more like everyone collectively choose to forget about it
<pigeons>
so "Blockchain" is free, unlimited, anonymous, transparent storage that makes it ok to skip settlement processes
<JackH>
that of which we do not speak sort of feeling
<bsm1175321>
"The open-source PBFT code initially provided by Castro and later modified by others has been publicly available, improved, and fine-tuned for several years, and while readily sized up by the academic community for research purposes, it has not been used in practice in real-world systems." -- http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.4854
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<bsm1175321>
Still the case AFAIK 5 years later.
<JackH>
hmm
<JackH>
this is quite high level
<JackH>
more like a generalisation of the topic
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<maaku>
JackH: if you think "git with signed commits" is a precursor to bitcoin, check out monotone
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<fluffypony>
<3 monotone
<JackH>
thx maaku, this looks as well like it comes close to something like what I was thinking
<fluffypony>
JackH: all those speakers look angry
<JackH>
heh
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<bsm1175321>
Has anyone else been following the Ethereum PoS plans? I've been going back and forth with Vitalik on his blog and I think he's just totally on the wrong track. It comes down to his idea of "weak subjectivity" which basically means "get the chain tip out of band" -- like on the web (because no one could possibly make a false website).
<bsm1175321>
I'm utterly unconvinced there's anything here, and will be extremely disappointed if Ethereum goes this direction. What do the rest of you think?
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] PoS is always nice to kill miners from dumping coins, i think thats their sole real reason to go that route bsm :) they are more a silicon valley startup then a cryptocurrency project anyway.
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<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: "just get it from a trusted node"
<fluffypony>
(that's from the ZeroCash whitepaper)
<bsm1175321>
Sounds like a great way to have long-lived forks. There's going to be absolutely no consensus about what defines a "trusted node" without centralization.
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<ebfull>
in zerocash the trusted third party is only trusted to do a secure one-time setup of the parameters of the system. the parameters are not subjective
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<fluffypony>
ebfull: uh, no, not for the attack vector the whitepaper is referring to
<fluffypony>
"To mitigate such attacks, users should check with trusted peers their view of the block chain and, for sensitive transactions, only spend coins relative to blocks further back in the ledger (since creating the illusion for multiple blocks is far harder)."
<ebfull>
that's an attack against anonymity that does not affect consensus
<fluffypony>
we'll file this one under "I don't know the product I'm working on"
<fluffypony>
ok bro, good chat.
<ebfull>
nice one
<fluffypony>
!bash 13
<gribble>
Error: "bash" is not a valid command.
<fluffypony>
pity
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<FXpro>
hi
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<smooth>
bsm1175321: it is somewhat odd that DAH and others continue to talk about "the technology behind bitcoin" if they understand they are after PBFT when PBFT has little to nothing to do with Bitcoin
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<fluffypony>
smooth: I like to think of it as "Bitcoin finds away AROUND PBFT without solving it", but somehow PBFT / BGP come up all the time
<smooth>
Yes but what do they mean by "the technology behind bitcoin" ? It seems useless to them.
<fluffypony>
maybe they say "the technology" but they mean "the network"
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<midnightmagic>
either way the floodfill network or the PoW blockchain, whichever conference or group or person who is advising them in such a way that they all say exactly the same words when describing what they think they're taking from bitcoin.. they're being lied to.
<midnightmagic>
so it doesn't matter much that they keep parroting the words without adding any substance
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<waxwing>
i think they're mostly talking about proper use of cryptography in distributed dbs/audit trails. git, google's certificate transparency for example. i don't think most of it is about BGP/BFT at all. 'blockchain' as a term is not helping, it's more an inspiration than anything else.
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