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<yoleaux>
Broken Crypto in Shadowcash and OZ-coin – shnoe
<wumpus>
someone is putting effort into trying to break obscure altcoins at all, that surprises me most about that article
<fluffypony>
wumpus: Shen is the guy that created RingCT, so it was during that process
<wumpus>
usually they avoid any kind of serious review, and get away with the grandest claims, just by sake of being unknown
<wumpus>
oh they have bug bounties, wow
<fluffypony>
I will lol if they pay out
<wumpus>
fluffypony: right, he knows what he's talking about
<smooth>
lol well it pays out in brokencoin
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<Taek>
It would be fun to run an 'adversarial cryptocurrency construction' class that had students analyze live cryptocurrencies for flaws
<Taek>
I'm not sure what responsible disclosure would look like in that case though
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<Taek>
especially if the students hadn't really developed a sense for what qualifies as professional/ethical behavior when breaking real systems
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<fluffypony>
Taek: if a live cryptocurrency is broken I suspect you have to disclose publicly so people stop using it, and people are motivated to run a patch / fix
<fluffypony>
Or it has to be snuck in, but the risk is great that an attacker will notice the snuck in fix and exploit it
<fluffypony>
And between now and then users are at risk
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] I mean, for this one, the past year of transactions on sdc are de-anonymized, it's not like that's fixable no matter what they do now
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] that's the problem with having a public blockchain
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<Eliel_>
fluffypony: yes, the only way to succesfully sneak a security update is to camouflage it to look like a partial rewrite. And even then the vulnerability has to be hard to spot for this to work.
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<Eliel_>
So, if you've got some messy code that needs a security fix, that's a great chance to refactor it into a nicer form :P
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<fluffypony>
lol
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<nanasho>
adam3us_: whats the biggest problem that keeps us from proper sidechains?
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<bsm117532>
How to mine them.
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<nanasho>
bitcoins pegged to the sidechain wont move on the mainchain
<nanasho>
but on the sidechain
<nanasho>
ownership of the private key (and therefore mainchain coins) is passed on in sidechain blocks
<nanasho>
am i wrong to assume this is how it works?
<bsm117532>
Correct AFAIK. The problem is moving coins back to the main chain.
<nanasho>
well they haven't moved on the mainchain
<bsm117532>
If we establish a sidechain with 1BTC each, and I transfer the sidechain coins to you, you should be able to cash out to the main chain and have 2 BTC.
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<nanasho>
yes
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<nanasho>
so i have to get hold of the private key
<nanasho>
of your bitcoin
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<nanasho>
whereas you should have never had access to that private key to begin with
<nanasho>
whereas you should have never *have access to that private key to begin with
<bsm117532>
No generally a bitcoin transaction must be created and signed that "nets out" the sidechain. You should never trade keys.
<nanasho>
sure
<bsm117532>
That's what a federated peg does.
<nanasho>
i get the private key from the address where your pegged coins are
<bsm117532>
But it's a centralized solution.
<nanasho>
there's got to be a way to transfer that pegged private key on the sidechain
<bsm117532>
We don't ever trade private keys in bitcoin. We sign transactions that create new outputs.
<nanasho>
without any participant being able to reveal it without currently holding it on the sidechain
<bsm117532>
What if I send you 0.5 BTC on the sidechain and you want to net out 1.5 BTC? can't just trade keys...
<nanasho>
i see
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<maaku>
nanasho: define "proper sidechains"
<maaku>
the two-way peg is one type of sidechain value transfer mechanism that has plusses and minuses compared with other alternatives, some of which are deployed already
<maaku>
same goes for merged mining
<maaku>
since sidechains are already deployed, I surmise that there is some other property or feature you care about, and I'd be interested to hear what that is
<maaku>
also, #sidechains-dev is a thing
<bsm117532>
Also, what maaku says. I'm personally unhappy with the merged mining and fed-peg security. But I don't know what a "proper sidechain" is either...
<nanasho>
you mean elements sidechain?
<maaku>
nanasho: yes
<nanasho>
maybe a proper sidechain has not been developed yet
<maaku>
nanasho: again, what do you mean by "proper"?
<nanasho>
what has to be accomplished is that users transacting on the sidechain do not know the mainnet keys they are transacting with
<maaku>
"do not know the mainnet keys they are transacting with" <-- can you explain this, it doesn't seem to make sense
<maaku>
sidechain users are trading specific mainchain coins around
<nanasho>
whereas the key has to somehow be revealable when redeeming sidechain coins for mainchain coins
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<nanasho>
sure, but they dont move the mainchain coins
<maaku>
nanasho: i think you might have some misconceptions about how sidechains work in e.g. elements alpha
<nanasho>
i sure might
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<nanasho>
i am not citing elements sidechain implementation
<bsm117532>
Is there any other?
<nanasho>
and i have admittedly limited knowledge of how that elements sidechain opperates
<nanasho>
not that i know of, no
<nanasho>
but if its mathematically possible it can be done
<nanasho>
thats why i am asking all these questions
<bsm117532>
Then you have your answer -- is there a non-sidechain elements sidechain: no. ;-)
<bsm117532>
(AFAIK)
<nanasho>
i didnt ask that question
<nanasho>
i want to talk about if a non federated two way sidechain is possible
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<bsm117532>
If "proper sidechain" = "non-sidechain elements", yes you did. ;-)
<nanasho>
i do not care who could've programmed it or if it does not yet exist
<bsm117532>
Probably best to take this to #sidechain-dev and ask about the fed-peg. I'm at the limit of my knowledge.
<nanasho>
by proper i mean without trusted third parties
<nanasho>
:)
<nanasho>
please understand my intro question as being: whats the biggest problem that keeps us from sidechainswithout trusted third parties?
<bsm117532>
So, alternatives to a fed-peg.
<nanasho>
yes
<bsm117532>
I'm helping you narrow your question but I don't have the answer, sorry. ;-)
<nanasho>
#sidechain-dev is the most dead IRC channel i have ever been to
<bsm117532>
#sidechains-dev ?
<maaku>
nanasho: the biggest problem is that merged mined SPV peg is probably worse in every way than the fedpeg
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<maaku>
instead of trusting N-of-M constractually obligated, bonded individuals spread across many jurisdictions, you're trusting 2-3 randomly selected businessmen under an authoritative regime
<maaku>
fix decentralized mining, then a merged mined SPV peg becomes a possibility
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<bsm117532>
maaku: (1) Get rid of the free relay of p2p transactions to miners to destroy outsourcing of mining, (2) Require mining of individual transactions, (3) arrange transactions into a braid instead of blocks, (4) introduce lower difficulty targets and a new proportional-to-difficulty incentive model. That's the solution I'm trying to prove, anyway.
<nanasho>
hey maaku, whats your overall opinion on weak blocks?
<maaku>
nanasho: promising; needs more research
<maaku>
note that weak blocks is a broader category of what p2pool always has been, and the beneficial effect there has been real
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<nanasho>
agreed
<nanasho>
i really have to get around reading the whitepaper
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<nanasho>
im not even sure what it allows tbh
<nanasho>
i thought you might tell me :P
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<nanasho>
as i understand it it allows more secure 0-confs but does not rise the max tx/s throughput
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<maaku>
no zeroconf!
<maaku>
maybe you're thinking of lightning?
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<smooth>
bsm117532: im not sure the free relay does that
<smooth>
if you have to pick a miner/service because you dont feel like mining it yourself then your going to pick the biggest most well known ones
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<bsm117532>
smooth: free relay enables outsourcing of mining, withing the bitcoin protocol itself. It doesn't have to do that...
<smooth>
only if you can actually force people to mine themselves
<bsm117532>
Outsourcing would probably still occur, but Bitcoin itself doesn't have to do it.
<smooth>
like require signing as part of pow
<bsm117532>
smooth: that's what I'm talking about.
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<smooth>
ok but that may be impractical for some (many?) uses
<bsm117532>
Do you want decentralization, or practicality for these hypothetical uses? ;-)
<smooth>
hehe
<smooth>
okay just saying that relay is a mixed blessing is all
<smooth>
it reduces barrier to entry to small miners, if you can come up with a way to be a small miner effectively
<bsm117532>
smooth: That's part of the lower PoW and braids proposal (kind of like combining weak blocks and p2pool into bitcoin itself, if you will...)
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<smooth>
bsm117532: yes i read it and thought it was impressive, but if tx fees are signficant and im going to be a small miner on a braid, there has to be a way for me to actually get tranasctions
<r0ach>
is there any real argument against the fact that for mining to not centralize to an insignificant number or 1, it would probably need to be unprofitable, and if you're converging to 1, you might as well operate a closed loop system in the first place
<r0ach>
and since mining is just a futures market, replace PoW with it's equivalent of time opportunity cost
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<r0ach>
or as Larimer said, who once disagreed with me on this subject but now made a post agreeing, the only way to accomplish the equivalent of PoW in a closed loop system is either 1) how long you've committed to hold collateral in the past (common PoS) or 2) how long you committ to hold collateral in the future = the same time opportunity cost of PoW mining
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<r0ach>
*commit
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<bsm117532>
r0ach: part of my mining-at-input idea (mining at the edges) is precisely to make it unprofitable. The marginal cost to me to mine a transaction is negligible, and I will treat it as zero. That forms a tremendous downward price pressure on mining from everyone mining their own transactions for zero compensation.
<bsm117532>
i.e. I mine my own transaction for a few seconds or minutes, but am not continuously mining as a business model.
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<bsm117532>
The cost of adding a chip to a motherboard or cell phone to do this is negligible on an individual unit basis too.
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<r0ach>
I haven't given enough thought on those branching, IOTA-like systems. Anonymint claimed it can only reach convergence through centralization. My current theory is that all these systems will centralize to the point of being identical to closed loop systems, so you might as well design it as one in the first place...
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<r0ach>
only thing I see mining useful for is distribution