sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<adlai>
has there been ever any thought into sybil-resistant troll handling? beyond just "don't let anybody outside your WoT contact you, for any reason, ever"
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<bsm1175321>
Hashcash.
* bsm1175321
is still frustrated that hashcash is not being used for its original purpose.
<belcher>
with email hashcash i never got how you decide the difficulty, except experimentally by "raise it when you start getting spam"
<adlai>
eh, a sufficiently dedicated/funded troll effort will get superior hashcash performance. maybe personalized hashcash?
<adlai>
ie, i declare that communications to me must have a vanity address with finite total PoW per bitcoin adjustment, unless you're in my WoT, for whatever definition works, if you are
<bsm1175321>
You dynamically adjust the difficulty depending on your spam. Bitcoin, as a proxy for hashcash, isn't as good because you have to wait for the confirmation time.
<adlai>
conf time puts a base cost, that of the tx fee confirmable within your maximal latency tolerance
<maaku>
adlai: i declare that communications to me must include a solved block on tip with myself as the coinbase payout
<adlai>
please don't be elitist, what if some poor souls who can't afford their own ants want to responsibly disclose your fuckups?
<bsm1175321>
adlai: You can't have it both ways. Sybil resistance implies resource expenditure.
<bsm1175321>
It's not elitist, it's reality.
<belcher>
all communications to me must be using your real name on facebook.com
<adlai>
resource expenditure can be measured in a variety of ways. i'm suggesting that using a more liquid/fungible market (btc tx fee) is an arbitrarily/arguably better critereon than one much less so - sha256d hashpower
<bsm1175321>
belcher: good luck getting crypto verification of that.
<adlai>
/invite bsm1175321 #tlsnotary-chat
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<adlai>
has there been any documentation of sybil attacks against bitmessage?
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<pigeons>
i havent looked at it in a long time, it used to take a whole lot of bandwidth to forward every message for the whole network, and to send a mesage you had to request a pubkey first so you could tell when the recipeinet came online and what node you first saw the pubkey from
<pigeons>
but i dont remember anything about sybil attacks
<adlai>
well it uses naive PoW... you could make a BM-spamASIC the moment widespread use began
<adlai>
BTC at least has dynamic difficulty adjustment. so i guess the ideal sybil-resistent nonglobal channel should have identity-based btc-style "difficulty"?
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<bsm117532>
There are two parts of Sybil resistance: identifying entities, and ensuring each entity is properly rate-limited. It's assumed each identified "entity" can't obtain additional identities for a Sybil attack. Rate-limiting is fairly easy -- block timestamps could be used to create "blockchain time" and each entity could skew its clock toward the network's global median time, and dump blocks in excess of the rate-limiting restriction. Difficulty
<bsm117532>
PoW mixes these two concepts. PoS attempts to identify entities through stake or bonding deposits, so needs a separate rate limiting algorithm. (PoS needs reference to external value to work, however, or its consensus argument is circular) Central entity identification is of course possible ("Permissioned Distributed Ledgers").
<bsm117532>
Given that rate limiting seems easy, the remaining task is a distributed, Sybil-resistant mechanism to distribute identities (let's say they're keys for block-signing).
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<kanzure>
bsm117532: how is that any different from the "dynamic membership multiparty signature" concept?
<bsm117532>
kanzure: It's not. It's identical. Just trying to noodle where Sybil resistance comes from. The DMMS concept doesn't specify who gets to make the signatures.
<bsm117532>
A DMMS, by itself, is not automatically Sybil resistant.
<kanzure>
neither is bitcoin, above the difficulty threshold.
<kanzure>
(er, there are probably some additional parameters beyond just difficulty threshold, but w/e)
<bsm117532>
Indeed. Bitcoin's difficulty target is a poor proxy for "number of participating entities".
<kanzure>
why does the number of participating entities matter?
<bsm117532>
A Sybil attack is by definition the creation of a large number of fraudulent identities.
<kanzure>
bitcoin tries to fix this by not caring whether an identity is "fraudulent"
<bsm117532>
Yes, which is why I call it a "poor" proxy for "number of participating entities".
<bsm117532>
(At least from the perspective of a Sybil attack)
<kanzure>
in the absence of good-sounding metrics for decentralization, i suggest that a cost minimization trend would be a good thing to pursue
<bsm117532>
From this perspective, bitcoin is outsourcing block creation to Sybil attackers (large mining pools).
<bsm117532>
kanzure: can you elaborate on "cost minimization"? How does that come into a Sybil argument?
<kanzure>
bitcoin puts a floor on the cost of you getting tricked about consensus. the floor is in terms of proof-of-work, but other resource requirements do play a role (like validation requirements, bandwidth requirements, even for non-mining nodes).
<stonecoldpat>
bsm117532: PoW doesn't have a reputation system that can be sybilled? all that matters is hash power, regardless if its 1 or 1,000 people, the protocol doesn't necessarily care
<stonecoldpat>
which i think kanzure was alluding too when saying it doesnt care if the identity is fraudulent
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<coinoperated>
should just call it Proof of Wallet, it merely boils down to monetary commitment anyway.
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<kanzure>
"“Eventually, we would like to be able to emulate the computer network of a small nation, or even one as large as the United States, in order to ‘virtualize’ and monitor a cyber attack,” he said."
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<rusty>
kanzure: yeah, Ron's hack was cool: AFAIK he's the only serious user of lguest, like, ever.
<nsh>
i had the idea of GPS sats sending nowness hashes years back for space-time bound decryptability
<bsm117532>
Cool. I was pretty proud of that blog post. ;-)
<nsh>
but had an interesting conversation with zooko over the weekend about using something like this to distribute blockmining geographically
<bsm117532>
Hmmm...I've been thinking about that a lot WRT braids. You end up in a situation where you want geographically distributed mining.
* nsh
nods
<bsm117532>
But I can basically get that by incentivization of fast block creation instead.
<nsh>
oh?
<bsm117532>
Yes, if you win more BTC by creating a bead/block quickly, you get geographic distribution.
<bsm117532>
Where "quick" is determined by the DAG structure order, relative to the quickness of other miners.
<bsm117532>
This was in my talk, I called it "cohort difficulty" -- your target difficulty relative to other miners separated from you by the light cone should be similar.
<nsh>
so why doesn't someone with a bunch of concentrated hashpower mine fast blocks in one spot?
<nsh>
so there is some entropy incorporated from other participants who are distal?
<nsh>
how do you ensure they are distal?
<kanzure>
speed-of-light constraints could be used for a proof of location as long as you are okay with people delaying evidence of them having received something
<bsm117532>
Good question.
* bsm117532
ponders
<nsh>
kanzure, this is why - i think - you need a lot of beacons of nowness [nonce-cones] that originate from a geographical distributed constellation (like GPS-sats)
<nsh>
but you can use other infrastructure as long as it's mapped and you can compensate for the topography
<bsm117532>
nsh: In principle you can tell the topography from the graph itself.
<nsh>
yeah, that's a fascinating idea
<nsh>
i need to think hard about it
<bsm117532>
e.g. imagine a uniformly distributed set of nodes on the surface of a sphere, each generating blocks.
<nsh>
right
<bsm117532>
This will generate a particular set of DAG connections that will differ from e.g. if the points were distributed on the surface of a pyramid.
<nsh>
this already assumes we stop the creation of artificial extent through delayed relaying/mining?
<bsm117532>
You mean the delay caused by PoW?
<kanzure>
in the logs in here there was osmtehing about using orbital telescopes for infrared imaging to confirm heat generation from hashing.
<nsh>
(waiting before acting on your source of now (hashes) is equivalent to introducing more distance)
<nsh>
or nodes gaming for whatever reason
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<nsh>
well, we have to probably limit ourselves to what can reasonably be part of the consensus rules
<bsm117532>
Well with braids I'm adding a faster layer. So you want, on average, there to be many beads/blocks created within the time interval defining the light cone.
<nsh>
i'm suggesting you can't couple the measurement of IR with the logic that decides is a block is valid without pathological degree of complexity
<nsh>
*if
<bsm117532>
The fundemental propagation time across the network is ~1s, so the bead rate will be many per second.
<bsm117532>
One can then create a metric of "were these distributed on the surface of a sphere", and use it in the incentive formula.
<bsm117532>
Which will end up after a long time incentivizing people to put mining hardware in the middle of the Pacific, or using artificial delays to make it look like there is mining hardware in the Pacific.
<nsh>
i think there's a boottrapping problem: you can't use sequence to determine geometry and at the same time use geometry to induce sequencing. if you already had some distributed notion of proper-time then you could project back from the braid-structure to the likely space on which it was mined
<nsh>
but i think if you're trying to use the network itself as the clock, then you get a catch-22
<bsm117532>
Hmmm...
<nsh>
but maybe i'm just being intuitively pessimistic
<nsh>
need to puzzle it out formally
<bsm117532>
It's certainly true I can create any topography I want in the graph structure by introducing artificial delays.
<bsm117532>
BTW the topography is defined by the set of parent links in a DAG, not by the hashrate.
<nsh>
right. so that's why i asked if there's already something that's putting spacetime tension on nodes so that they fall behind if they delay at all
<nsh>
which we already get a low resolution with blocktime anyway
<nsh>
it's just that light goes so awfully fast and we can't hold everyone to a statistical mining tick that's small enough
<nsh>
(but this is probably because i don't understand your bead mining model properly)
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<nsh>
*at low
<bsm117532>
nsh: You don't actually need a clock. Instead you use the fact that one node "couldn't possibly have seen" beads that come later in time.
<nsh>
right, hash generation is a lock
<nsh>
*clock
<nsh>
any hash generated with input from a past event makes a later event
<bsm117532>
Still puzzling over your question about all the mining in the same geographic area.
<nsh>
gtg now, but will think more on this :)
<bsm117532>
I'd prefer to have all nodes mining. In particular, have every transaction mined (even if CPU mining) so that you can't separate the mining from the geographic distribution of currency holders.
<nsh>
thanks for the blogpost!
<bsm117532>
Sure, glad you enjoyed it!
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