sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<AdrianG>
bsm117532: how can that perverse incentive be removed?
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<aj>
rusty: did you just want to fwd them or post them publically? fwd'ing is fine, probably better for them to be reproducible before publishing though
<aj>
rusty: (oops, wrong channel)
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<bsm117532>
AdrianG: Another idea I'm toying with is removing the p2p layer and requiring all submitted transactions to be already mined (e.g. a tx-only, no-block type cryptocurrency). This doesn't remove that perverse incentive, but helps decentralize mining and creates more mining full nodes.
<satoshin>
ALL: 320byte signatures are compact enough to be used in bitcoin, aren't they?
* bsm117532
thinks satoshin should change his nick. That's just annoying. Also -> #bitcoin
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<yoleaux>
Bob McElrath auf Twitter: "The future of blockchain is Braids. https://t.co/kMXZgfgLN9"
<kanzure>
so much indirection
<bsm117532>
I just wanted to share a picture...
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<bsm117532>
You can see from this picture the existence of graph cuts, which are blocks/beads that, if removed, separate the braid into two pieces. Ideally one would place coinbase transactions and checkpoints at graph cuts. This leads naturally to a metric: "average time between graph cuts" which is analogous to the "block time".
<bsm117532>
As the difficulty goes down, the "width" of the braid goes up (more simultaneous blocks generated) and the probability of a graph cut goes down.
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<nsh>
bsm117532, @bobmcelrath is yourself?
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] but who sets the checkpoints?
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<bsm117532>
Yes
<bsm117532>
othe: I'm just saying that if you wanted to checkpoint, that would be a logical place to do it. I've nothing to say about who should do it.
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] ahh i see, it sounded like it´s some necessary thing to checkpoint there
<bsm117532>
I was thinking of posting a low-difficulty and high-difficulty braid, but ipython is making transparent background images and they're not visible on imgur with their black backgrounds. :-(
<bsm117532>
othe: Checkpoints are not necessary for operation of a Braid, any more than they are for a Blockchain...
<bsm117532>
But may be desirable for reasons...
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] yes i get that, there are several reasons why it totally makes sense to use checkpoints in code i.e. faster intial syncing; i just had the impression they are a design neccesity - there is/was some cryptocurrency which "autocheckpoints" every xxxx blocks and that is just wrong
<bsm117532>
othe: No I'm staying as close to bitcoin "in spirit" as possible. So no PoS silliness or major changes in security assumptions. Just allowing a block to have multiple parents leads down an interesting rabbit hole without opening another can of worms.
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<petertodd>
bsm117532: fwiw, I think carnivorous rabbits would be relevant to your analogy
<petertodd>
bsm117532: haha, I've seen that I think!
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<bsm117532>
BTW petertodd I'm kind of loth to review from Scaling Bitcoin about hard vs. soft vs. semisoft vs. squishy vs. generalized soft (forks). The signal/noise on this topic has been abysmal. There's no code or papers or analyses. Almost the same can be said of block sizes...
<petertodd>
bsm117532: can't blame you...
<petertodd>
bsm117532: I still need to do up my threat model stuff, but I've been busy with/finding paying work
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<AdrianG>
bsm117532: i looked at the pdf you posted.
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<adam3us>
Taek: re weak blocks & pre-consensus it is still informational and penalty free to submit a block with no tx's overlapping with pre-consensus/mempool. what people have been saying about working in a cooperative or non-adversarial setting only
<AdrianG>
bsm117532: i think any such proposal will face fierce opposition.
<bsm117532>
AdrianG: Which proposal, not outsourcing mining (or decentralizing it another way)? Core devs and virtually everyone in the ecosystem would love it, I think, as long as it doesn't break everything.
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] the most non-outsourceable mining stuff i saw you can easily cheat with paying a collateral to a pool, so no one steals blocks because he has more to lose than what he gains, imho if u want to keep mining non-outsourceable you have to do stuff like using the last XXXXXX blocks of the blockchain as a scratchpad like BBR does
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<AdrianG>
bsm117532: miners would love it?
<bsm117532>
Miners would love the ecosystem to grow. And for the ecosystem to grow mining needs to decentralize.
<bsm117532>
Miners don't want to make these kinds of decisions, but care must be taken that their business models continue to work for the forseeable future.
<AdrianG>
bsm117532: is anyone working on this?
<AdrianG>
non-outsourcable puzzles?
<AdrianG>
and getting miners onboard?
<bsm117532>
The paper has amiller as an author, he's in this channel. I'm not aware of anyone actively working on it, but he would know better.
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] i think what miners love are pools they can just connect to without all the hassle
<amiller>
othe: that criticism applies to what i call "weak nonoutsourceable puzzles", "strong nonoutsourceable puzzles" prevent that using zero knowledge proofs
* adlai
has been told, by miners, that what they would love is a c++ p2pool in bitcoin core, along with developer rubber-stamping of Freedom From Attacks
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] well u could just make p2pool like system mandatory...
<AdrianG>
good luck getting everyone to switch to that.
<amiller>
i'm a) hoping an altcoin tries this out first not bitcoin, b) i'm interested in how to combine nonoutsourceable with other desirable properties, like maybe the new memory hard "generalized birhtday paradox" puzzle can be made nonoutsourceable too
<bsm117532>
adlai: That's very interesting...I've been thinking a lot about putting braids into bitcoin core as a kind of pool, very similar to p2pool.
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] amiller, to mine bbr u need the blockchain as its used as a scratchpad
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] and theres also spraedcoin which has a what u call weak outsourceable puzzle, both is hated by miners
<amiller>
othe: that's cool about bbr
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] we thought about p2pool mandatory in monero tho, that sounds like sth to try out
<amiller>
othe: what do you mean by miners hate it
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<amiller>
for the economics of nonoutsourceable puzzles to work out, i think you also need a drastically different reward structure
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] miners are a lazy bunch of people who usually dont want to run some kind of fullnode for mining :) or whatever they need for non outsourceable stuff
<amiller>
that favors really large jackpots rather than steady trickle of (supposed) income
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] yeah i think so too, winning a btc clock is not worth it economically
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<amiller>
okay so miners are as thrilled about nonoutsourceable puzzles as large entrenched financial institutions are thrilled about bitcoin :)
<adlai>
othe, the advantage of bundling a perceived-efficient p2pool in reference software is that pool operators have fewer excuses not to at least provide an opt-in endpoint
<amiller>
othe: do you know if it's working? are people solomining spreadcoin rather than joining pools or not?
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] totally agree with that adlai
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] amiller, after 2 weeks they have build a collateral pool system on top of spreadcoin
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<amiller>
othe: details?
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] which 1 pool only, so 100% of the mining power was on 1 pool
<smooth>
amiller: im not sure the whole cloud mining worry is important
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] well u pay amount XXX which is worth more than what u can steal
<bsm117532>
I think some miners would object at first, but as long as their business models are not made obsolete, the argument is convincing in getting them to invest in nodes.
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] wasnt there antminer or sth like that who announced a new p2pool software months ago? or bitmain or so...cant remember
<AdrianG>
amiller: why memory hard puzzles?
<amiller>
AdrianG, uh, just the usual reasons... but why not have both properties?
<AdrianG>
amiller: im not sure what the motivation is
<smooth>
amiller: as i understand spreadcoin, people use a pool that is mostly trust based
<smooth>
closed source mining code or something along those lines
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] for p2pool to work out in xmr i guess we would need something like cuckoo as the current pow is kinda easy to ddos
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<smooth>
its kind of pretend centralization that would probalby fall apart if it were actually worth something
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