sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<coinoperated_rob>
as always, best place to be is in the middle of the action, not stuck out in the logical hinterland of the graph
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<coinoperated_rob>
every other natural inequality between otherwide identical nodes can be fixed except that. fee based incentives linked to routing advantages will result in de facto centralization as nodes clump in all the predictable places (major NAPs, meet-me rooms etc.)
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<gmaxwell>
coinoperated_rob: bitcoin has resource constraints to limit the damage that can be done by those incentives; though it remains to be seen if these will be durable parts of the system.
<kanzure>
coinoperated_rob: lightning has a concept of "negative fees" to help with asymmetrical capital clumps
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<gmaxwell>
kanzure: the whole >100 MB block was only claimed before timestop; it also is about peaks of huge amounts of high fee transactions, not ordinary capacity.
<kanzure>
timestop?
<kanzure>
oh, timelock
<kanzure>
huh i guess i should add that detail then
<gmaxwell>
no, timestop.
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<gmaxwell>
Delay the refund expirations when the blocks are saturated high fee transactions; it turns dos attacks back into delays instead of fund theft.
<kanzure>
oh, 100 MB was originally because of dumping-everything-to-the-blockchain concerns? it was my understanding that it was about confirming an obscenely high 10e9 number of commitment transactions per block or something.
<kanzure>
this is good to know
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<coinoperated_rob>
@gmaxwell which resource contraints in particular? block size seems like the most obvious one, but what are other contraints that help inhibit (what I would generally call) adaptive resource monopolization
<coinoperated_rob>
@kanzure - I will read up on that, thx
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<gmaxwell>
coinoperated_rob: blocksize is the primary one, there is also the sigops limit; though its incorrectly constructed.
<coinoperated_rob>
@gmaxwell yes, apparently so :D
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<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, the original 100mb block thing was to replace every single transaction in the entire world
<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, with the timestop improvement that isn't even necessary
<kanzure>
"replace every single transaction" replace with what?
<kanzure>
section 3.3.1 is not talking about commitment transactions
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<petertodd>
kanzure: I've been calling non-miner-validation schemes client-side validation
<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, as in all of the financial transactions that happen on earth
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<Taek>
Pedantic note: you can mine blocks in a lightsphere that has more energy than the lightsphere you are attacking, and then bring the mined blocks over
<moa>
are you sure there's not a 2nd law violation in there somewhere?
<moa>
what did you use as your boundaries, a sufficiently large multi-verse?
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<maaku>
phantomcircuit kanzure: the 100mb block thing also had totally arbitrary numbers pulled out of a hat with respect to channel duration, number of channels per participant, max burst settlement time...
<maaku>
it's totally made up numbers. in reality it could be 10mb, it could be 1gb.
<phantomcircuit>
maaku, it could equally be 0.1MB just by changing the assumption around uptime of channels
<maaku>
phantomcircuit: right
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<aj>
kanzure: the 100MB thing is assuming every person on the planet is using lightning, too...
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<aj>
kanzure: 100 MB/block ~= 10B people * 500B/year / [6*24*365 blocks per year]
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<Giszmo>
phantomcircuit: If you assume today's birth rate and grant every earthling an opening and a closing transaction, you get a hard to argue about lower bound of what bitcoin should support at some point. Birth rate should be about 7billion/70years=100M/year=3.2/s. x2 that's 7tps. Satoshi thought of everything.
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<AdrianG>
lol
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<calibre720>
decentralised DNS system? Is it in progress? I think it's possible.
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<kanzure>
you think it's possible for it to be in progress?
<kanzure>
then why ask ?
<kanzure>
why not just look at namecoin/dnsturtlewhatever intead
<kanzure>
*instead
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<tulip>
kanzure: namecoin is somewhat of a wood bullet. lack of ability to use spv makes it basically worthless if you expect people to run their own resolvers.
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<maaku>
tulip: that's a problem of namecoin's design though, not an inherent limitation. namecoin should have committed to current state
<maaku>
(there's no shortage of problems with namecoin)
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<pigeons>
will freinames be on "elements"?
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<gmaxwell>
Hm. I've encountered an argument for a kind of flexcap that I think no one has discussed before. Today many scrypt altcoins have significant problmes with adaptive pool hopping undermining their closed loop control of their difficulty, leading to increases in orphaning that have bad effects (like amplifying centeralization pressures).
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<gmaxwell>
In a system were most of the mining income came from fees; unless there was a fee backlog, this effect would be worse.
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<gmaxwell>
The "obvious fix" is to have block difficuty (but not credited work) increased by some function on the fees in the block relative to fees in recent blocks. Though it would incentivize fee bypass and be undermined by it.
<gmaxwell>
I wonder though about what the effect would be if the function weren't related to the total value moved; that would prevent the bypass. ... but it would also go down the route of creating value proportional fees. Thats something we've historically thought to be undesirable due to tx amounts not really having anything to do with system processing costs... but unusually large fee amounts absolutely
<gmaxwell>
do have a cost on the system, and high value transactions are more attractive to reorg...
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<kanzure>
maybe some probabilistic factor that gets applied to whether the selected transactions and their fees are fully given to the miner?
<kanzure>
could also use some sort of new transaction type (or script) that shows evidence of a bunch of near-target-difficulty difficult orphans, and then consequences triggered from this
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<kanzure>
would need some way to get around miner censorship of that sort of transaction, heh
<gmaxwell>
'shows' is too late, even these schemes that make the interblock controller very fast (and vulnerable) are too late.
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<gmaxwell>
Actually, remembering more, I think my "no one has discussed" is too bold. Sergio had a post about using fee variance to drive blocksize IIRC. So thats a bit in this space.
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