sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
gocrazy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Yoghur114_2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
Quanttek has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
metric has joined #bitcoin-wizards
metric is now known as Guest78361
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has quit []
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nubbins` has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Quit: Leaving]
belcher has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
chmod755 has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
gocrazy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
gocrazy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sneak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
sneak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sneak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TBI_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TBI has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tachys has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
kisspunch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justice_ has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
rusty has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
justice has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Piper-Off has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
RoboTedd_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
eudoxia has quit [Quit: Leaving]
NewLiberty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
raver_edm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
raver_edm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kisspunch has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
malte- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
malte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kisspunch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
epopt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
s1w- has quit [Changing host]
s1w- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nubbins` has quit [Quit: Quit]
[7] has quit [Disconnected by services]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
go1111111 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
mrkent has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CautiousNarwhal has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quent has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
weex_ is now known as weex
weex is now known as Guest246
Guest246 is now known as weex_
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Terry4 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuke1989 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CautiousNarwhal has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
<kanzure> jl2012: sorry about getting moderated. FWIW i think your email was on-topic.
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Quent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<btcdrak> jl2012: me too
<gmaxwell> me too; though the thread was getting circular; but it wasn't the fault of jl2012.
<gmaxwell> Bitcoin-dev is just not a safe space to discuss new ideas.
<jl2012> anyway, I believe it's better to move to somewhere else, as it is just a rough idea not for implementation in near term
<bramc> I'm missing context here, but the thought which may or may not be relevant is what you really want in blocks is roots of three things: utxos added this block, utxos removed this block, and utxos after the previous block
<gmaxwell> yea, it's further out. And I think it's okay that the list isn't there.
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell> er list isn't ideal for that regardless.
<bramc> That way you have a whole block of time to recalculate a utxo root, which is good because that might take a few dozen milliseconds or more.
<gmaxwell> Though I am a bit unhappy with the confused shouting out by people who AFAIK have little background in the subject matter... since it makes the list inapproiate for things that are nearer term too.
weex_ is now known as weex
weex has quit [Changing host]
weex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012> kanzure: I don't mind moving away after some initial discussion. Just wonder why I have to wait for moderation for all my posts
TBI_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<gmaxwell> I'd say that it would be beneficial to hammer out things like that in plances where the audience will not be as likely to get caught up in misunderstandings.. but your post I think was pretty clear. I think if I checked it first I wouldn't have suggested any clarifications, beyond pointing you to where very similar things had been discussed before.
<bramc> I'm trying to guess what y'all are discussing based on previous traffic on this channel and it isn't clear.
<gmaxwell> Someone have an archive link for bramc.
<gmaxwell> ?
bitcoin-wizards7 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012> gmaxwell: Would you please point me to Peter Todd's similar proposal?
<jl2012> If a proposal is useful and not done, the probability for it to be reinvented approaches 1.
<bramc> gmaxwell, thanks
<gmaxwell> jl2012: I'm not sure what the best link is. He has propsed 'stxo' commitments which is an insertion ordered commitment over every txout created (or in some versions he's described it as being over all the txouts that fall off the end of a fixed size FIFO utxo set). When a STXO is spent the spend includes an update proof the shows membership and sets it to an empty alue.
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell> So more or less what you were thinking, but the original direction of the approach is different, and some details were different: e.g. fixed size vs time based.
<gmaxwell> This would let you have determinstic storage requirements for nodes.
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc> Sounds like a reasonable idea, although I'd add in a few things (these may be in the proposal already, I'm not fully clear on the details): There should be batches over time, possibly each batch doesn't need to be included until a few blocks after it ends, to give time for its computation. It has the downside of making transactions quite a bit bigger (those paths to merkle roots are much larger than signatures). We don't
<bramc> need it yet.
<jl2012> time based UTXO limit + block size limit also indirectly sets an upper UTXO limit, at least you could calculate a theoretical one
<gmaxwell> FWIW, most of the path is common to almost every transaction (the top of the tree)
<gmaxwell> so if you require nodes to keep track of the top couple levels of the tree, those directly go off the count.
<bramc> gmaxwell, They're still big, at least compared to ECC hashes
<gmaxwell> e.g. doesn't take much state to store the top 16 levels of the tree (65536 leaves), and would cut 512 bytes off every stxo txin
<bramc> A hash is 256 bits, or 32 bytes. With a set of 1000 things, that winds up being 320 bytes
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<gmaxwell> I think this could actually be negoiated too. e.g. "I keep the top X, don't send me that"
<fluffypony> heh
<bramc> You could also have the batches be referred to by number, and do them frequently. That would cut down on size as well. But still, any way you slice it resurrecting an archived utxo would require several times as many bytes as a regular transaction
<fluffypony> jl2012: not sure if you're aware, but ThomasV proposed exactly this like a year ago
<gmaxwell> yes, in these schemes the archived txouts take more space to spend for sure.
<gmaxwell> though as I said, degrees of fractionality of the tree to could be hop by hop negoiated.
<gmaxwell> So people could freely make space/bandwidth tradeoff decisions.
bitcoin-wizards7 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<kanzure> jl2012: you have to wait for moderation because we keep forgetting to unset your moderation bit! sorry about that. i'll try to remember.
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012> for a block with 1024 UTXOs, 10 layers of hash would take 320bytes, plus other required info it should not take more than 400 bytes
<jl2012> so the size is inflated by 100-200% for a normal 250bytes tx. Not a big deal IMO
<gmaxwell> yea, and 10 layers is a lot, if you're assuming 16 layers of "common data"
go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<bramc> Is it important to clean up memory as data is deleted or does it really, really not matter?
<bramc> Today on the anal retentive programmer: How to clean your bit bucket
<Luke-Jr> bramc: … what do you mean?
<Luke-Jr> if you don't free your memory, it will obviously leak
<bramc> Luke-Jr, I'm doing my own memory management, it's a question of whether I zero stuff out when it's no longer used (the zeroing in some cases contains semantic information, in others it's just redundant)
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
JackH_ is now known as JackH
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<bramc> This is for my Merkle Set
epopt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
raver_edm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Taek> bramc: You should definintely zero out memory if there is secret data. Otherwise it's not needed
PRab_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kisspunch has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PRab has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
PRab_ is now known as PRab
Myagui-afk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Myagui-afk is now known as Myagui
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
leakypat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
leakypat has quit [Client Quit]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Krellan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jcorgan|away is now known as jcorgn
jcorgn is now known as jcorgan
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
koshii has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
nickler has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
nickler has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justice has quit [Disconnected by services]
Piper-Off has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nabu has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away
phantomcircuit has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
mrkent has quit []
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
esneider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
esneider has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dignork has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
kisspunch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
esneider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
esneider has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
esneider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<petertodd> gmaxwell: "Petertodd actually proposed basically the same idea" <- no, I was asked to do it - part of why I dropped the contract was I thought going to all that effort just to get rid of a GB of UTXO's was a bad idea
esneider has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
esneider has joined #bitcoin-wizards
esneider has quit [Client Quit]
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Changing host]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
libertalis__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tripleslash has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tromp__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dignork has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Erik_dc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
instagibbs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
null_radix has quit [Excess Flood]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_radix has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<bsm117532> The ever-growing utxo set is beginning to weigh on my mind. I wonder if there's a way to use ZKP's to keep a "virtual" utxo set. i.e. a transaction could be a ZKP proof of a valid state transition on the ledger, without anyone actually keeping the ledger. This would presumably require clients to keep more data about their utxos.
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<phantomcircuit> bsm117532, not without reducing the security of the system to the security of the zkp
<phantomcircuit> which would certainly be less than the security of the current scheme
<phantomcircuit> to a limited extent clients can produce partial proofs that their transactions are valid and then full node operators can build fraud proofs to counter
<phantomcircuit> however such a scheme still requires full nodes exist and be available but more so changes the censorship resistance requirement substantially
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<phantomcircuit> bsm117532, tl;dr yes but not
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
harding_ is now known as harding
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<bsm117532> phantomcircuit: none of what you say is obvious to me, nor how to do it. Do you know of any work in this direction?
chmod755 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zwick has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<bsm117532> Another way of stating the same thing might be: "Could the UTXO set be kept entirely on the client side, and validated with ZKP's?" If possible it would allow node scaling to be only dependent on the number of transactions, not the number of accounts/addresses/users.
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
binaryatrocity has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quanttek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<phantomcircuit> bsm117532, yes but unproven crypto
TBI has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<bsm1175321> I was just wondering if a Schnorr signature could be used, likening to gmaxwell's presentation of Schnorr signatures for multisig -- could signatures for the last n-1 transactions (all transactions back to the coin's origin coinbase/genesis) be combined with the holder's signature when spent?
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<maaku_> bsm1175321: zkp rely on cryptographic assumptions that are new to bitcoin
<sipa> bsm1175321: the efficient schnorr combining of multiple signatures only works when they sign the same message
helo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321> maaku_: I'm willing to consider other assumptions, this is -wizards. ;-)
<bsm1175321> sipa: so such a scheme would have to be similar to Chaumian e-cash. The signature would have to be on the serial number of a fixed denomination, rather than divisible utxos.
helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chmod755 has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
<bramc> maaku_, I've come up with specifics of filling in the details of a patricia trie which I like. It mostly has to do with making proofs of non-inclusion efficient.
Guest43031 is now known as luigi1111w
luigi1111w has joined #bitcoin-wizards
luigi1111w has quit [Changing host]
nuke1989 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Terry4 has quit [Quit: Terry4]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dgenr8 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
aj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<coinoperated> @kanzure, in the scalability summary deck you made, on Pg 18 (and i think again a few slides later) you refer to pruning, "invalidate old UTXOs", with sub notes suggesting cases like burning old BTC and move old BTC to miner subsidy or other purposes. Are there more details on these proposals anywhere, and how seriously were they taken?
<coinoperated> at face value these would seem to be rather unpopular suggestions
<bsm1175321> coinoperated: There was some discussion of this on the mailing list this week. Indeed the proposals were unpopular.
<coinoperated> @bsm1175321: ah thanks, dormant accounts escheat to the state in traditional banking, this would be a Bitcoin version of that practice then
<pigeons> coinoperated: in this proposal the funds aren't lost to the owner, they can still be spent
<bsm1175321> Some of the replies discussed confiscating coins though...
<coinoperated> i wonder if in 20 years this will not be as unpopular. one cannot fight for their rights to posession from the grave
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<coinoperated> or in the language of the proposal linked above" It becomes the responsibility of dormant coin holders to scan the
<coinoperated> blockchain for the current status of the UTXO commitment for their coin. "
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321> coinoperated: proof-of-life or death is by necessity centralized, generally a function of the state. And there's no reason autonomous programs couldn't keep bitcoin wallets.
<bsm1175321> Lots of people throughout history have been declared dead so corrupt states could seize their assets.
<coinoperated> even autonomous programs need someone feeding them electricity
<coinoperated> you don't have to be dead even, just insufficiently relevant to consensus
dgenr8 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<bsm1175321> We're veering offtopic. But ways to reduce the utxo set are still interesting.
nabu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<coinoperated> do you know of a place where discussion of issues that have a general bearing on Bitcoin's long term developemnt are on topic?
King_Rex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321> Well here, or bitcoin-dev. I'm just saying proof-of-death isn't a technical issue that cryptography has any bearing on.
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<coinoperated> oh i see, i wasn't really thinking in terms of proof of death, just using it as a comparative case in fiat contexts. You don't have to be dead, just unable to fight your corner for whatever reason, while consensus on a hard fork closes in on a solution that invalidates your UTXOs. I guess this is not a suitable topic for the IRC format though.
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Changing host]
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
King_Rex has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eudoxia has quit [Quit: Leaving]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
atgreen_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bendavenport has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
King_Rex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dgenr8 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
King_Rex has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Firescar96 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CubicEar_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tachys has quit []
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Emcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wangchun has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Firescar96 has quit [Quit: The flame grows dim, I must rekindle]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Changing host]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zwick has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
StephenM347 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CautiousNarwhal has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
copumpkin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nwilcox_ is now known as nwilcox
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CubicEarth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bendavenport has quit [Quit: bendavenport]
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Yoghur114_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
CautiousNarwhal has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Client Quit]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
wangchun has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wangchun has quit [Client Quit]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has quit [Quit: Leaving]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
wangchun has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
throughnothing has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
mrkent_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
liteIRC__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ChainQuery-Ian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
liteIRC__ is now known as zooko
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
morcos has quit [Quit: leaving]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
morcos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ChainQuery-Ian has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
CautiousNarwhal has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
helo has quit [Quit: leaving]
helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CautiousNarwhal has quit [Client Quit]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
liteIRC__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
eudoxia has quit [Quit: Leaving]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
liteIRC__ is now known as zooko
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand_2_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Jeremy_Rand_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Changing host]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dasource has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
throughn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
throughnothing has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
bitdevsn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fkhan has quit [Quit: fkhan]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
helo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has quit [Changing host]
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner
LeMiner has quit [Changing host]
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[Derek]_ is now known as [Derek]
[Derek] has quit [Changing host]
[Derek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ChainQuery-Ian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
liteIRC__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
go1111111 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
liteIRC__ is now known as zooko
liteIRC_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
liteIRC_ is now known as zooko
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binaryFateCloud has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
liteIRC_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
liteIRC_ is now known as zooko
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jgarzik has quit [Changing host]
jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
arubi has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
c0rw1n has quit []
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Client Quit]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bendavenport has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
alex__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alex__ is now known as tachys
bitdevsnyc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
StephenM347 has quit []
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Biomega__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Biomega__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PaulCapestany has quit [Quit: .]
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
tromp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Jeremy_Rand_2_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ChainQuery-Ian has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bitdevsnyc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
fkhan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitdevsnyc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]