sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<instagibbs>
dgenr8, AFAICT the same cost will happen with the more general near block scheme, assuming there is no way to stop miners from transmitting orphan subchain blocks and convincing others that those txns will be included.
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<bramc>
Upshot from today's in person discussion: utxo roots are also good for self-auditing. Calls should have the option of verifying while things are being traced through
<bramc>
Also a general audit call because there are some edge cases of corruption which that won't catch. That should probably allow both just internal auditing and iteration across the entire set.
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<yoleaux>
HTTP Error Code 451 Approved For Censored Web Pages - Slashdot
<bramc>
haha
<moa>
i was conflicted, should I laugh or cry or both?
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<moa>
is it a fair to say that voluntary consensus is an example of emergent behaviour?
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<moa>
coalescence around a common concept/direction in the free market of ideas
<moa>
trying to formalise this is a direct mapping to a mathematical description of emergence, automata and that field of study
<moa>
none of which I have seen much success with, tbh.
<jcorgan>
if it could be coded deterministically, it would be part of the consensus rules. instead, the emergent behavior is only "calculable" by letting it happen.
<moa>
my point being is that I don't think that it can be formalised
<moa>
or that would be an internal contradiction in logic
<jcorgan>
i think we're saying the same thing
<moa>
i think we are
<moa>
a godel-like theorem for emergence/consensus
<coinoperated>
consensus forms opportunistically, where signalling conditions align in such a way as to permit a self-reinforcing feedback loop to start forming. it doesn't have to be voluntary opt-in, it doesn't have to be a conscious process at all..
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<bramc>
Also in discussion yesterday, gmaxwell has this great idea which may or may not have been discussed on the list of making weak blocks which have pointers to transaction sets which aren't actually their transaction sets, so they can help those transactions propagate without taking the hit on adding an orphan rate for themselves if they succeed
<AdrianG>
deterministic rules would be incomplete, not internally contradictory.
<e0_>
adam3us can't we do n of n multisig with threshold sigs right now for the price of one sig?
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<bramc>
And some discussion of strategies for reference semantics of weak blocks. General feeling is that weak blocks should be able to support a single reference to a prior weak block, and nodes should forward all weak blocks over the decided on threshold. No discussion of what that threshold should be. I'm guessing a simple value around the order of 1/10 or 1/100 a block's difficulty.
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<bramc>
In principle supporting a DAG instead of a linked list of weak blocks gets marginally more compression, but nobody sounded like they had any appetite for working on it and everybody was queasy about potential implementation errors on the edge cases.
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<adam3us>
e0_: no. n of n ecdsa is n*sizeof(ecdsa)
<AdrianG>
is there any formal papers on bitcoin consensus and continuous game equilibrium
<moa>
AdrianG: deterministic rules for a self-determined entity is a clear contradiction
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<e0_>
adam3us what am I missing "Threshold signatures
<e0_>
look no different from single-key signatures and thus
<e0_>
avoid the shortcomings of multi-signature transactions.
<e0_>
Threshold signatures applied to Bitcoin wallets can be
<mrkent_>
What gets published on the old blockchain in weakblock/subchains scenario when strong block is found? I'd imagine the whole set of transactions since the last strong block?
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<coinoperated>
AdrianG: i would expect to see broad analysis published in Ledger, assuming it makes it out the door.