sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<adlai>
fwiw, the whole 'death certificate' bullshitting is indicative of terrible PR and the value of naming things non-pessimally
<adlai>
but (thankfully!) nobody gives to shits (yet?) whom i textecute
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jeremy_Rand has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fabianfabian has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fabianfabian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
droark has quit [Quit: Later.]
dabura667 has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
oldbrew has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
olderbrew has joined #bitcoin-wizards
olderbrew has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
throughnothing has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
fabianfabian has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fabianfa_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fabianfa_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fabianfabian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTedd_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
throughnothing has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
<Taek>
I have a potential solution to two mining attacks that I know of. Forgive me if someone else has already solved this problem, but I haven't seen anything of the sort yet
<Taek>
The first attack is the selfish mining attack. With 33+% of the hashrate, you can withhold a block after you find one and try to find a child for that block
<Taek>
The second attack is related, you leverage a superior network connection
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
You withhold a block when you find one, and when another block appears on the network you race, so that you get to announce your block to 50+% of the nodes before the competing block
<Taek>
the first attack is theoretically pretty easy to execute, the second attack probably not as much - miners are trying to optimize their network connections as much as possible already
<Taek>
A solution to both is to treat competing blocks differently depending on how long its been since the most recent block was announced
<Taek>
For the purposes of explanation, I'll use 30 seconds as the cutoff, though that's probably not the optimal choice
<Taek>
If you see a block and for 30 seconds you don't see a sibling (a competing block sharing a parent), you assume that any sibling going forward is actually a part of a withholding attack
<Taek>
*selfish mining attack
<Taek>
And so you deliberately ignore all sibling blocks until they are at least 2 ahead of the current chain, instead of the typical behavior which is to ignore them until they are 1 ahead of your current chain
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<Taek>
this effectively stuffs the selfish mining attack, and is unlikely to affect honest miners because block propagation should be significantly faster than 30 seconds
<Taek>
Anyone honest should be mining on the new block well before the 30 second cutoff (adjust as necessary so it fits Bitcoin's current situation)
<Taek>
On the other hand, if you see a block and sibling before the 30 second cutoff, you assume a network attack
<Taek>
this may or may not be true
<Taek>
even in the honest case though, the 'late' sibling is only late because the other miner has a worse network connection
<Taek>
you don't want to favor miners with better network connections as this is a centralizing force
<Taek>
so, you pick between the blocks at random
<tulip>
ignoring a fork that's one block higher than you are doesn't sound like a fantastic idea.
<adlai>
more from the tangentially-relevant-idiocy-(esp 'this may or may not be true')-that-never-attained-liftoff-department: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=J1skFU0w
<Taek>
The one thing I'd be worried about here is that it could open up new attack vectors from blocks that have been made to intentionally propagate slowly. You end up with some miners on one side of the 30s cutoff and everyone else on the other side, might cause problems
<Taek>
tulip: you're only ignoring it if it seems to be part of an attack
<adlai>
it's not funded, nor finished, but a blueprint for making nonaltruistic mining even worse, if anybody else feels like funding beauty contests
<Taek>
It's unreasonable that you'd see a sibling block 30s late unless it actually was part of an attack (slow propagation aside)
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
* adlai
finds as he better grasps the mythical spherical-vacuum Prediction Market that there's likely not a single human willing to grease its friction-free ball bearings
<tulip>
Taek: I'm not sure that's a good heuristic, but I've no data to prove so.
<Taek>
tulip: you can work it out mathematically, shouldn't be a need for data on this one
<Taek>
tulip: I did forget to mention that the strategy only works if there are enough miners using it
<Taek>
In the case of a 33.3% witholding attack, it should be sufficient that you are the only miner employing the strategy, because the balance is almost perfect. But if there is a cartel of like 40% of the hashing power, then you'll need at least 7% of the honest hashpower employing this strategy
<Taek>
In the case of mining a block at random if you see multiple before the 30 second mark... I could be convinced that it's a bad idea.
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<tulip>
adlai: you can just have fun with transactions which pay large amounts to miners if you want that sort of breakage. if I mine a block with 50 BTC of fees in it, it's in every miners interest to attempt to make it stale and take the fees for themselves. as a user, you can make a transaction locked for a certain depth (say, 50 blocks ago) which pays to an anyone can spend script the value of the cumulative block reward to that point, then publish
<tulip>
it.
* adlai
wonders how much longer we'll see the "oops i accidentally put transaction value in the field that doesn't even exist in the network coding" gag
<tulip>
huh?
<adlai>
tx fees... if a user can enter the desired tx value as fee in an authoring UI, you're either a criminal or a genius, probably both
<adlai>
sorry, 'luser' :-\
<tulip>
I'm not sure what you mean, there is wallet software which allows that today.
<adlai>
pretending you need sidechain-level magicry to use bitcoin as a megaphone is inspirational, but naive
fabianfabian has quit [Quit: why]
* adlai
goes off to start #bitcoin-plumbers
<adlai>
every preimage colliding over a bunch of hashed contracts brings bitcoin closer to making ethics a prerequisite for CS101
CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tulip has quit [Quit: tulip]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CubicEarth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
binaryatrocity has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TBI_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
optimator_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
optimator_ has quit [Changing host]
optimator_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bliljerk_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Toxodont_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nwilcox_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kanzure_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jouke_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gnusha_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
fluffypony_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Toxodont has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jouke has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bliljerk101 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TBI has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
nwilcox has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
BlueMatt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
katu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
binaryFateCloud has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
davec has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
fluffypony has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
harding has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
optimator has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
gnusha has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
binaryFateCloud has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
phy1729 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
fluffypony_ is now known as fluffypony
fluffypony has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fluffypony has quit [Changing host]
lmatteis_ is now known as lmatteis
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BlueMatt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harding_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
binaryFateCloud has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
harding has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
binaryFateCloud has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
leakypat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
leakypat has quit [Quit: leakypat]
Quanttek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
katu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quanttek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
phy1729 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jl2012>
I created a wiki to collect interesting technical ideas and discussions in Bitcoin. Ask me for editing rights if you are interested: https://8333.info
Quanttek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
artifexd has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
artifexd has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blkdb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blkdb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kyuupichan has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Luke-Jr>
jl2012: eh, the Bitcoin Wiki already does that..?
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kyuupichan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kyuupichan has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
kyuupichan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gielbier has quit [Changing host]
gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ManfredMacx has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
js2012: It would be nice to have a wiki that could accept pull requests from github. I know that such a thing exists
<Taek>
* jl2012^
<fluffypony>
Taek: Github has a wiki, though?
<fluffypony>
oh wait I understand what you're saying
<fluffypony>
wiki-like but with git as the vc
<Taek>
yeah
<fluffypony>
s/vc/vcs
<fluffypony>
I guess bitcoin.org is managed that way
<jl2012>
Luke-Jr: I think the nature is a bit different. Bitcoin Wiki is more like Wikipedia, where you expect to read full articles. The 8333.info is more like a collection of links to related issues, and may also collect some immature ideas (which you won't expect in the Bitcoin Wiki)
<jl2012>
Taek: What's the benefit of the github model over the wikipedia model?
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<Taek>
jl2012: you get strong tools for parsing history, and an easy way to clone/decentralize the repo. In general, I think it's easier to use git when trying to make copies or backups than it is to use standard wiki tools
<Taek>
I also prefer looking at PRs and having discussions over github's issue tracker, though perhaps that is just because it's what is familar to me
<fluffypony>
I've always felt that git shows a train of thought / development a lot better than nearly everything else
<tulip>
fluffypony: you've obviously not read Satoshis wxBitcoin commits.
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<Taek>
tuplip: satoshi was far from perfect
<Taek>
*tulip ^
* fluffypony
hands Taek a tab button
<Taek>
:O
<Taek>
fluffypony: thanks
<jl2012>
Taek: My purpose is not to generate idea through discussion, but as a central point to collect idea from somewhere else. For well documented discussion, I personnally prefer a forum like bitcointalk. Regrettably the SNR of bitcointalk has become so bad
<Taek>
jl2012: people will inevitably disagree about what a page should look like. This will cause discussion
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<jl2012>
Taek: No, I'm not doing an encycopedia. For example, there won't be a page to explain what "segregated witness". Instead, just links pointing to related discussion and articles, so people should hardly disagree with the content
<Taek>
Some topics have a lot of links that you could use, deciding which links belong and which don't could be a subject of controversy
<Taek>
fwiw, thus far my knosys repo has had no contention whatsoever
<Taek>
but... we have uesd the issue tracker to (rather unsuccessfully) to try and assign different pages to specific people
<jl2012>
Taek: unless it is bluntly stupid I'd prefer to include it. And pointing out why a bad idea is bad is also useful, as we don't want to have the same bad idea again
<jl2012>
It's not wikipedia, which only "correct" information or idea is expected
mjerr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
jl2012: The other reason that gitian wikis are nice is that I can edit the pages from vim, something that is a bit more annoying to do in a standard wiki.
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<jl2012>
Taek: I'm fine with any alternative solutions which is easy to setup
LeMiner2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
melvster1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
paveljanik has quit [Changing host]
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mjerr has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
fkhan has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has quit [Changing host]
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has quit [Changing host]
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gocrazy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ManfredMacx has quit [Quit: Leaving]
jcluck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cluckj has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
tripleslash has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
tulip: I was wrong with my numbers earlier. if you are intentionally choosing not to mine on a block that appears to be the product of selfish mining, you need a full 50% of the hashrate also choosing to not mine on that block.
<Taek>
assuming the selfish miner is 34% hashrate, that means you need a full 75% of the honest hashrate to be following the same strategy
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
kanzure_ is now known as kanure
kanure is now known as kanzure
melvster1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
* Taek
loses certainty
roconnor_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
I'm pretty sure you can get the numbers to work, invaliding a 33% selfish mining attack and bringing the requirment back up to 51%, but I'll want to run the analysis again when I'm not so tired.
roconnor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
melvster1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fabianfabian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tripleslash has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
andytoshi has quit [Changing host]
andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]