sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<zookolaptop> kanzure: nothing academic comes to mind. I thought some blogger that I trusted, maybe the Coin Center folks,
<zookolaptop> That reddit post doesn't look bad, but I just skimmed it.
<kanzure> per-transaction aml costs do not seem to be written down anywhere
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<zookolaptop> This was interesting, but not mostly about AML I think: https://coincenter.org/2015/10/what-last-weeks-european-vat-ruling-means-for-bitcoin-fungibility/
<kanzure> i mean at some point the per-transaction cost has to start eating into GDP or something or total transactions enacted heh
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<AdrianG> aml costs for bitcoin?
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<kanzure> yes but only to the extent that bitcoin also happens to be a currency.
<kanzure> (and it's topical because privacy/fungibility fixes that problem)
<moa> AML/KYC for an underlying currency must be a net drag on the economy, however afiak I haven't seen any economic studies along those lines
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<adlai> drag? it's a fucking boon, bitcoin now has better risk-free interest than cotton or hemp could ever hope to get, and trust-minimized to boot
<adlai> but i really do shill it too hard
<oldbrew> going to be a wild ride
<adlai> i hope you sell tickets.
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<adlai> fwiw, the whole 'death certificate' bullshitting is indicative of terrible PR and the value of naming things non-pessimally
<adlai> but (thankfully!) nobody gives to shits (yet?) whom i textecute
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<Taek> I have a potential solution to two mining attacks that I know of. Forgive me if someone else has already solved this problem, but I haven't seen anything of the sort yet
<Taek> The first attack is the selfish mining attack. With 33+% of the hashrate, you can withhold a block after you find one and try to find a child for that block
<Taek> The second attack is related, you leverage a superior network connection
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<Taek> You withhold a block when you find one, and when another block appears on the network you race, so that you get to announce your block to 50+% of the nodes before the competing block
<Taek> the first attack is theoretically pretty easy to execute, the second attack probably not as much - miners are trying to optimize their network connections as much as possible already
<Taek> A solution to both is to treat competing blocks differently depending on how long its been since the most recent block was announced
<Taek> For the purposes of explanation, I'll use 30 seconds as the cutoff, though that's probably not the optimal choice
<Taek> If you see a block and for 30 seconds you don't see a sibling (a competing block sharing a parent), you assume that any sibling going forward is actually a part of a withholding attack
<Taek> *selfish mining attack
<Taek> And so you deliberately ignore all sibling blocks until they are at least 2 ahead of the current chain, instead of the typical behavior which is to ignore them until they are 1 ahead of your current chain
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<Taek> this effectively stuffs the selfish mining attack, and is unlikely to affect honest miners because block propagation should be significantly faster than 30 seconds
<Taek> Anyone honest should be mining on the new block well before the 30 second cutoff (adjust as necessary so it fits Bitcoin's current situation)
<Taek> On the other hand, if you see a block and sibling before the 30 second cutoff, you assume a network attack
<Taek> this may or may not be true
<Taek> even in the honest case though, the 'late' sibling is only late because the other miner has a worse network connection
<Taek> you don't want to favor miners with better network connections as this is a centralizing force
<Taek> so, you pick between the blocks at random
<tulip> ignoring a fork that's one block higher than you are doesn't sound like a fantastic idea.
<adlai> more from the tangentially-relevant-idiocy-(esp 'this may or may not be true')-that-never-attained-liftoff-department: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=J1skFU0w
<Taek> The one thing I'd be worried about here is that it could open up new attack vectors from blocks that have been made to intentionally propagate slowly. You end up with some miners on one side of the 30s cutoff and everyone else on the other side, might cause problems
<Taek> tulip: you're only ignoring it if it seems to be part of an attack
<adlai> it's not funded, nor finished, but a blueprint for making nonaltruistic mining even worse, if anybody else feels like funding beauty contests
<Taek> It's unreasonable that you'd see a sibling block 30s late unless it actually was part of an attack (slow propagation aside)
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* adlai finds as he better grasps the mythical spherical-vacuum Prediction Market that there's likely not a single human willing to grease its friction-free ball bearings
<tulip> Taek: I'm not sure that's a good heuristic, but I've no data to prove so.
<Taek> tulip: you can work it out mathematically, shouldn't be a need for data on this one
<Taek> tulip: I did forget to mention that the strategy only works if there are enough miners using it
<Taek> In the case of a 33.3% witholding attack, it should be sufficient that you are the only miner employing the strategy, because the balance is almost perfect. But if there is a cartel of like 40% of the hashing power, then you'll need at least 7% of the honest hashpower employing this strategy
<Taek> In the case of mining a block at random if you see multiple before the 30 second mark... I could be convinced that it's a bad idea.
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<tulip> adlai: you can just have fun with transactions which pay large amounts to miners if you want that sort of breakage. if I mine a block with 50 BTC of fees in it, it's in every miners interest to attempt to make it stale and take the fees for themselves. as a user, you can make a transaction locked for a certain depth (say, 50 blocks ago) which pays to an anyone can spend script the value of the cumulative block reward to that point, then publish
<tulip> it.
* adlai wonders how much longer we'll see the "oops i accidentally put transaction value in the field that doesn't even exist in the network coding" gag
<tulip> huh?
<adlai> tx fees... if a user can enter the desired tx value as fee in an authoring UI, you're either a criminal or a genius, probably both
<adlai> sorry, 'luser' :-\
<tulip> I'm not sure what you mean, there is wallet software which allows that today.
<adlai> yeah. file it under "how can we keep the Bitcoin Prediction Market (including Bitcoin) aligned with Bitcoin's survival", aka the https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-02/?msg=55242852&page=3 heart attack
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<adlai> pretending you need sidechain-level magicry to use bitcoin as a megaphone is inspirational, but naive
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* adlai goes off to start #bitcoin-plumbers
<adlai> every preimage colliding over a bunch of hashed contracts brings bitcoin closer to making ethics a prerequisite for CS101
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<jl2012> I created a wiki to collect interesting technical ideas and discussions in Bitcoin. Ask me for editing rights if you are interested: https://8333.info
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<Luke-Jr> jl2012: eh, the Bitcoin Wiki already does that..?
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<Taek> js2012: It would be nice to have a wiki that could accept pull requests from github. I know that such a thing exists
<Taek> * jl2012^
<fluffypony> Taek: Github has a wiki, though?
<fluffypony> oh wait I understand what you're saying
<fluffypony> wiki-like but with git as the vc
<Taek> yeah
<fluffypony> s/vc/vcs
<fluffypony> I guess bitcoin.org is managed that way
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<jl2012> Luke-Jr: I think the nature is a bit different. Bitcoin Wiki is more like Wikipedia, where you expect to read full articles. The 8333.info is more like a collection of links to related issues, and may also collect some immature ideas (which you won't expect in the Bitcoin Wiki)
<jl2012> Taek: What's the benefit of the github model over the wikipedia model?
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<Taek> jl2012: you get strong tools for parsing history, and an easy way to clone/decentralize the repo. In general, I think it's easier to use git when trying to make copies or backups than it is to use standard wiki tools
<Taek> I also prefer looking at PRs and having discussions over github's issue tracker, though perhaps that is just because it's what is familar to me
<fluffypony> I've always felt that git shows a train of thought / development a lot better than nearly everything else
<tulip> fluffypony: you've obviously not read Satoshis wxBitcoin commits.
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<Taek> tuplip: satoshi was far from perfect
<Taek> *tulip ^
* fluffypony hands Taek a tab button
<Taek> :O
<Taek> fluffypony: thanks
<jl2012> Taek: My purpose is not to generate idea through discussion, but as a central point to collect idea from somewhere else. For well documented discussion, I personnally prefer a forum like bitcointalk. Regrettably the SNR of bitcointalk has become so bad
<Taek> jl2012: people will inevitably disagree about what a page should look like. This will cause discussion
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<jl2012> Taek: No, I'm not doing an encycopedia. For example, there won't be a page to explain what "segregated witness". Instead, just links pointing to related discussion and articles, so people should hardly disagree with the content
<Taek> Some topics have a lot of links that you could use, deciding which links belong and which don't could be a subject of controversy
<Taek> fwiw, thus far my knosys repo has had no contention whatsoever
<Taek> but... we have uesd the issue tracker to (rather unsuccessfully) to try and assign different pages to specific people
<jl2012> Taek: unless it is bluntly stupid I'd prefer to include it. And pointing out why a bad idea is bad is also useful, as we don't want to have the same bad idea again
<jl2012> It's not wikipedia, which only "correct" information or idea is expected
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<Taek> jl2012: The other reason that gitian wikis are nice is that I can edit the pages from vim, something that is a bit more annoying to do in a standard wiki.
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<jl2012> Taek: I'm fine with any alternative solutions which is easy to setup
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<Taek> tulip: I was wrong with my numbers earlier. if you are intentionally choosing not to mine on a block that appears to be the product of selfish mining, you need a full 50% of the hashrate also choosing to not mine on that block.
<Taek> assuming the selfish miner is 34% hashrate, that means you need a full 75% of the honest hashrate to be following the same strategy
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* Taek loses certainty
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<Taek> I'm pretty sure you can get the numbers to work, invaliding a 33% selfish mining attack and bringing the requirment back up to 51%, but I'll want to run the analysis again when I'm not so tired.
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<pistdov> wedge broken; and china is waking up; bull market is about to start; china will test going beyond $500usd per btc
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<kanzure> off-topic, wrong channel.
<andytoshi> pistdov: please use #bitcoin-pricetalk for that (and check which window you're in if you leave -wizards open :))
<pistdov> oh i already have my prophetic idea of what he majority of the blockchain
<pistdov> will be used for after 2020, more into 2025 time frame
<pistdov> that will disrupt not just finance
<pistdov> but im keeping that idea private ;)
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