<chatter>
to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
<cyrozap>
pointfree: Cool, so we can use that to help us RE routing?
<cyrozap>
That feel when you `rsync -a` from one external HDD to another identical external HDD and the data takes up an additional 8 GiB on the destination drive. O_o
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<pie_>
oh
<pie_>
my
<pie_>
cyrozap, "somethings fucky"
<cyrozap>
pie_: It's not so bad since it's a 5 TB drive, but still...
<pie_>
well i mean id be suspicious if nothing changed but it diffs 8 gigs
<azonenberg>
Let's see... 113 LUTs for RPC transmitter with 128-bit datapath and silencing when transmit bus is idle
<azonenberg>
If i turn that off... 1 LUT
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
it almost degenerates to a wire
<azonenberg>
that isnt bad at all
<azonenberg>
(assuming it works)
<azonenberg>
yeah i thought that looked wrong
<azonenberg>
two luts and a ff
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<azonenberg>
whitequark: you ever go to the dentist?
<cr1901_modern>
Maybe insurance isn't as fucked up in the Eastern Hemisphere
<azonenberg>
lol
<dalias>
whitequark, just wanted to tell you i finally got around to building solvespace and it looks fun to play with :)
<cr1901_modern>
dalias: /join #solvespace
<dalias>
good idea, but i just noticed whitequark's nick here :)
<dalias>
will certainly go there if i have actual questions or whatnot
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<rqou>
cr1901_modern: healthcare in HK isn't nearly as fucked as in the USA (for now at least)
* rqou
is scrolling through backlog
<rqou>
although I have access to HK's subsidized healthcare
<lain>
my health insurance bill just went up to $377/mo
<lain>
thanks obama, etc
<lain>
I probably qualify for subsidies but the process is complicated >.>
<rqou>
in HK I automatically qualify for subsidies just by showing a HKID
<rqou>
an HKID is like a SSN on steroids :P
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<rqou>
hmm my phone somehow can't get the name of the carrier I'm currently on
<rqou>
it only shows the MCC/MNC
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<balrog>
lain: not that complicated and you can calculate it when you file income taxes
<rqou>
any openfpga people in Brussels?
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<lain>
balrog: well, presently I'm using Anthem directly. if I understand correctly, subsidies require signing up through healthcare.gov, which you can only do during open enrollment? and I'm concerned about doctor availability, since I already have a clinic I prefer to work with...
<rqou>
why are European ticket machines so flaky and confusing?
<lain>
my mom was on healthcare.gov and they assured her that her clinic was on some cheaper plan, so she switched, only to find that it wasn't. this was quite serious because the clinic included her heart doctor (she has a very serious heart condition), so check-ups on her condition were VERY costly because insurance refused to cover them, and she was unable to switch back to the correct plan for another year :/
<balrog>
You can apply at other times through healthcare.gov if you have a life event
<lain>
does "my insurance went up 30% and my income went down 60%" count as a life event? :P
<balrog>
Did you have a job change?
<balrog>
That counts
<lain>
no, self-employed
<lain>
I suppose I'm biased. we've had what I hope is an unusually large number of issues with health insurance providers over the past decade or so
<lain>
for example: long before obamacare, mom needed an operation. insurance covered it. surgeon messed up, they had to do two more operations over the span of like a year to fix it. her insurance provider dropped her as a result of this, saying she was too high of a risk.
<lain>
following that, no one else would insure her except a special program here in Indiana for people who can't get insurance.
<lain>
in a way, obamacare helped her - now they can't deny her coverage. on the other hand, they charge her something like $3000/mo for the privilege
<nats`>
pffffff health and life saving stuff should be free for all
<lain>
I think recently she managed to get some subsidies out of them and reduce that. at least in a few years she'll be eligible for medicare and that will go down _substantially_
<lain>
nats`: I agree, but I don't know how to make that practical :<
<lain>
like, canada has "free" health care but if you compare the cost of living with the higher VAT-like-thing (is it called VAT there?) and whatnot, it works out to roughly the same as what people here in the US pay for income tax + health insurance + etc
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<lain>
so I think it's similar, just that we notice it more because we pay separately
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<lain>
buuuuut there's also the issue that insurance can deny claims here, even if it's a necessary procedure. I don't know how that works elsewhere.
<lain>
like, mom went to the ER because of a possible heart attack, it turned out to be a mini-stroke. insurance didn't cover the tests they ran. they claimed the tests were performed "in a separate office"
<lain>
turns out legally the test room is a separate "office" from the hospital itself
<lain>
because it's owned and operated by a 3rd party which is not in her "network"
<lain>
took like 8 months to get that bill down to ~$1k, from something like $6k
<lain>
"insurance"
<lain>
lol
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<rqou>
AFAIK HK has universal healthcare
<rqou>
idk how sustainable it is
<nats`>
the french system is not that bad for health care
<nats`>
everybody have to pay taxes but when you see the price of an MRI you're happy
<nats`>
it's really low
<nats`>
something like 100€
<nats`>
if you have a private insurance it's usually 100% covered
<rqou>
the cognitive load of guessing what things mean is much higher in Belgium
<rqou>
Dutch, French, _and_ occasionally English
<lain>
lol
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<felix_>
reading how the healt insurance stuff works in the usa, i'm quite happy to be european... sure the public healt insurance here isn't that cheap either, but it's basically some percentage of my income, no matter if i need to go to the doctor/hospital/...
<azonenberg>
felix_: here's an example
<azonenberg>
$WIFE had a lung problem a few weeks after I started my current job
<nats`>
felix_ + 1:)
<nats`>
I feel the same
<nats`>
and it doesn't bother me to help other people too
<azonenberg>
We went to the doctor, who took one look at her and called for an ambulance
<nats`>
I think it's something that matters
<azonenberg>
She was in the hospital for a week or so after that
<felix_>
with a private health insurance you pay less in the beginning, but it gets expensive rather fast; so i chose to stay in the public health insurance
<azonenberg>
The bill *for the ambulance transport alone* was two thousand USD
<nats`>
what !
<azonenberg>
Yep
<nats`>
what the fuck man
<felix_>
o_O
<azonenberg>
And since that was less than the deductible, I would have had to pay all of it
<nats`>
here it's like 40 to 70 euros
<azonenberg>
By a complete stroke of luck, she was still covered by her mom's insurance
<azonenberg>
there was a one-month overlap when both her mom's and my employer's were covering her
<azonenberg>
And that plan had a better rate
<azonenberg>
So it ended up costing a lot less
<felix_>
2k for an ambulace ride sounds a bit like extortion to me...
<nats`>
yep
<nats`>
it totally is
<nats`>
I may sound stupid to american, but god I pretty like our health system even if it's not perfect and many people abuse
<azonenberg>
It's probably a somewhat reasonable price when you consider the maintenance cost of the gear plus crew training, salaries, etc amortized by # calls per year
<azonenberg>
however dumping that all on the one patient is ridiculous
<azonenberg>
the whole point of insurance is everyone shares the exceptional charges
<nats`>
yep and I say no to 2K for a ride :D
<nats`>
even with all costs
<nats`>
I mean it's like 10% of the price of the car :p
<nats`>
did they burn the car after moving aptient to avoid contagion ? :D
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
it was a blood clot in the lung, not even anything contagious :p
<azonenberg>
But no, an ambulance does not cost $20K
<azonenberg>
if you look at the gear in there its probably more like $250K for the vehicle
<azonenberg>
maybe more
<nats`>
it happens I worked in that field for a small time of my life
<nats`>
I think you really overestimate it :)
<nats`>
there are some gear which worth a lot but they are not in usual ambulance
<nats`>
at least not in europe
<nats`>
it's all the "real" medical gear
<azonenberg>
maybe american medical equipment vendors charge more
<nats`>
the basic ambulance is nothing more than a taxi with fancy seat
<azonenberg>
Drugs etc are not exactly cheap here
<azonenberg>
And most of the ones here are fairly well equipped, at least with any agency i've worked with
<nats`>
ceratinly and maybe your ambulance have system we found here with SAMU and firemen
<azonenberg>
The one she was in had a full 12-lead heart monitor, pulse oximeter, metered IV pump, etc
<azonenberg>
and that was just the gear that was actually in use during the ride
<nats`>
oky it's more soemthing you find in "real" medical system here
<azonenberg>
Yeah
<azonenberg>
It was largely overkill given the circumstances, but the gear was available so might as well use it
<nats`>
in France at least ambulance are sort of "taxi" but with system for disabled people etc
<nats`>
when you need breathing assistance system etc it's firemen or SAMU here
<nats`>
and those don't charge the ride when it's justified :D
<nats`>
at least not to the patient
<rqou>
HK's rate for an emergency room visit and "basic" diagnostics (no ambulance) is HKD$100
<nats`>
rqou almost the same here
<nats`>
and it's free if you're too poor
<rqou>
HKD$100 ~= USD$20
<azonenberg>
nats`: ah interesting
<nats`>
in france it'll be about 50US$ to your charge
<rqou>
this is the subsidized rate
<azonenberg>
well in this specific case she needed at a minimum SPO2 monitoring and 6L/min of O2
<nats`>
since every people who work must have a private insurance above the public one it's usually "free"
<azonenberg>
(was at ~82% on room air)
<nats`>
how did she get that ?
<azonenberg>
So the one you describe would probably not have been sufficient?
<nats`>
she would have been moved by the samu or firemen
<rqou>
the HK not-subsidized rate is iirc ~USD$100
<nats`>
they have everything you can find in an emergency room
<nats`>
and they are public system
<nats`>
(not private company)
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<azonenberg>
nats`: pulmonary embolism as a complication of DVT, brought on by a long car ride (driving from east to west coast of US in a week and clearly not taking enough breaks to walk around)
<felix_>
pulse oximeter and heart rate monitor are standard equipment here in german ambulances; those aren't that expensive or special
<azonenberg>
felix_: it might be america's very lawsuit-hungry legal system
<azonenberg>
causing vendors to bump up prices in anticipation of using those profits to pay off a malpractice suit in the future?
<felix_>
yeah, might be
<nats`>
certainly I guess
<azonenberg>
b/c last time i checked malpractice insurance here was hugely expensive
<nats`>
and felix_ in Europe we have sort of moral limit about medical equipment
<nats`>
for example french government often block the drug price
<azonenberg>
yeah there's nothing like that here, it's not unheard of for meds for rare diseases to be several thousand USD *per dose*
<felix_>
wtf o_O
<azonenberg>
and even some less rare stuff, i think a full course of treatment for hepatitis C is something like $50-100K?
<azonenberg>
just saw some news article about that
<lain>
yeah
<rqou>
e.g. Martin Shkreli?
<azonenberg>
Lol yep
<azonenberg>
exactly
<nats`>
for hepatitis french government blocked the price at 50k per week IIRC
<nats`>
the lab wanted 75 or 80k IIRC
<lain>
when my dad had one of his ablations to correct a heart rhythm disorder, the bill just for the room was over $60k
<lain>
of course his insurance covered that, he only had to pay deductible
<lain>
but wow
<nats`>
WHAT oO
<lain>
that's not including the equipment, doctors, etc
<lain>
that is just to use THE ROOM
<nats`>
60k ?
<lain>
I mean ok it was like an 8 hour procedure but still
<lain>
yeah
<nats`>
your system is totalyl fucked
<nats`>
I mean it's fucking crazy
<nats`>
you don't choose to be hill or to need a surgery
<lain>
yeah
<azonenberg>
nats`: exactly, you dont choose
<lain>
I mean basically someone has figured out that if you need a procedure, the cost doesn't matter
<azonenberg>
which means they do the procedure
<azonenberg>
and THEN bill you
<lain>
because either you pay it or you die
<rqou>
but Trump will make it all great again /s
<azonenberg>
at which point you dont have a choice :p
<azonenberg>
its a capitalist's dream
<nats`>
I would run away to Europe :D
<azonenberg>
they set the price and no matter how high, you will pay
<nats`>
and live there
<lain>
and of course you don't know the cost until after...
<azonenberg>
Of course
<lain>
yeah the system is fucked lol
<felix_>
o_O
<nats`>
I have a moral problem with the fact the system can let down poor people without even trying to help them
<rqou>
offtopic but apparently getting a GPS fix in Belgium is really hard for some reason
<nats`>
rqou weird.... shouldn't be a problem
<nats`>
my advice try a cold start
<nats`>
there was a leap second
<nats`>
maybe if it has bad data inc ache it can do crap
<rqou>
worked fine in Amsterdam
<felix_>
you have data roaming enabled there? without that you don't have the agps stuff, which makes things much faster
<rqou>
I have data roaming but HSPA+ only
<felix_>
that's more than sufficient
<lain>
this was before obamacare, but... I had gallstones some years ago, got it diagnosed, the problem didn't go away on its own so the only solution is gallbladder removal. well, this is expensive, and I didn't have any money (literally none, was starting my business, living with parents)
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<lain>
doctor said he volunteers at a clinic for people in need, gave me the paperwork... if I qualify, I would get the procedure for free
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<nats`>
...
<lain>
well, eventually I did get that free surgery, but by then the pain attacks were 16+ hours long, on random days, and eating made them more frequent... I had almost stopped eating because of it, and was down to like 140 lbs (underweight for my height)
<lain>
at one point I went to the ER because I had been awake for >24hrs due to the pain, but there was nothing they could do because they can only do emergency surgery if it's life threatening (infected)
<lain>
they gave me two shots of morphine, which did nothing. then they gave me dilaudid, which I had never heard of... it was very strange, it didn't make the pain go away, but I was so high I didn't care about it, if that makes sense lol
<lain>
I never felt pain like that before in my life
<lain>
but yeah, I mean, eventually I was able to get free surgery, but it took something like 8 months
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<felix_>
oh shit /o\
<lain>
it was low priority because "you're not dying", but I think that really fails to account for the quality of life :/
<lain>
</story>
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<lain>
oh, one more anecdote about the pain: when I got to the ER, the nurse that checked me in asked why I was there, I explained it was gallstones, and she said "oh, I've had three kids, kidney stones, and gallstones. gallstones hurt more than the rest combined. I'll get you a bed right away so we can get you something for that."
<lain>
lol
<lain>
after the surgery they were so concerned like "oh the pain will last a while from the incisions, it's going to hurt a lot" ... well, I had the opposite problem: compared to gallstones, I hardly even noticed any pain during recovery, so I kept almost popping the stitches lol
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<nats`>
it's weird that a country so developped is still in the middle age of taking care of people
<lain>
yep :<
eric_ is now known as eric_j
<rqou>
the UK flag is still in front of the European Parliament building :P
<rqou>
I wonder if it will stay?
<nats`>
that's what everybody is wondering :D
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<lain>
off-topic but what's everyone's favorite mail client, or do you just use eg. gmail web interface?
* Marex
just got an email from some dude doing Cyclone III
<Marex>
yay
<nats`>
since nobody really dev on thunderbird anymore I'm more and more webclient :\
<Marex>
given Cyclone IV is a die-shring of Cyclone III, that is great !
<felix_>
thunderbird with some extensions to fix some behaviour works ok-ish for me. everything else i tried was even worse :/
<lain>
nats`: that is my situation also. but gmail tabs use like 4239 GB ram...
<nats`>
:D
<lain>
I have 16 GB ram in my desktop and I can't edit video and have chrome open at the same time ಠ_ಠ
<lain>
though the situation is better with The Great Suspender extension installed
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<balrog>
IIRC clifford or someone else at 33c3 mentioned work on Cyclone III/IV
<felix_>
he probably meant Marex. but more people working on stuff is nearly always a good thing
<Marex>
balrog: that was me , yeah :)
<balrog>
aha :p
<Marex>
balrog: I had a nice chat with clifford about that stuff there
<balrog>
were you working on it too?
<Marex>
on what ?
<balrog>
altera stuff
<Marex>
balrog: I am working on it, but what do you mean by "too" ? :)
<balrog>
[18:08:38] Marexjust got an email from some dude doing Cyclone III