apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Nick registration required to talk || Ruby 2.0.0-p247: http://ruby-lang.org (Ruby 1.9.3-p448) || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com
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<coca_rails>
yo
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<ljarvis>
nothing starts a tuesday better than a song
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<yorickpeterse>
there, made a "TOLD YOU SO" list
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<ljarvis>
wot m8
<yorickpeterse>
first entry: "2013-11-05: <yorick> Turbolinks is a bad idea, we'll all regret it 2-3 months from now"
<yorickpeterse>
ljarvis: piece of paper on the window
<ljarvis>
ah
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<ljarvis>
sounds like a circlejerk list
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<yorickpeterse>
heh
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<ljarvis>
said im easssyyyyyy
<ljarvis>
easy like tuesday morning
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<yorickpeterse>
we know
<ljarvis>
m8 i will smash ur mum
<yorickpeterse>
m8 yur brown bread
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<ljarvis>
:D
<ljarvis>
you are learning well
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<ljarvis>
you could come here and fit right in
<ljarvis>
ya cunt
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<yorickpeterse>
I think my own country is bad enough already
<ljarvis>
im visiting in the new year
<yorickpeterse>
brit swearing is just lowering your writing skills/IQ, Dutch swearing is actually knowing vulgar words that hurt people
<ljarvis>
(no you, that wasn't an invite) but yeah
<ljarvis>
heh
<ljarvis>
well i'll take that as an insult
<[spoiler]>
Croatian swearing, though, is just inventing words
<[spoiler]>
and miraculously, everyone knows what they mean
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<yorickpeterse>
Why you're in NL during new year?
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<[spoiler]>
Croatian swearing is like some magic language everyone understands
<yorickpeterse>
unless you like getting firework thrown at you and shitty weather
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<ljarvis>
na after the new year
<yorickpeterse>
Ah
<ljarvis>
i'll miss the celebrations
<ljarvis>
visiting family
<yorickpeterse>
u gng for a smoke m8?
<yorickpeterse>
ah
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<ljarvis>
and durgs
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<yorickpeterse>
I should note down every sentence here regarding Turbolinks
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<yorickpeterse>
and the ones where my CTO remarks getting a timemachine to make sure JS was never invented
<ljarvis>
im with him
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<yorickpeterse>
to kickstarter!
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<ljarvis>
yeah if rvm can do it so you can!
<ljarvis>
those words are the wrong way around, but you get my point
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<yorickpeterse>
RVM is building a timemachine?
<whitequark>
lol
<yorickpeterse>
in 20k lines of shell?
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<ljarvis>
i was referring to their cash campaign
<ljarvis>
but may as well be
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<[spoiler]>
But, I like JS :(
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<[spoiler]>
Well, I prefer coffeescript, but still
<yorickpeterse>
JS is a terrible language in every aspect
<[spoiler]>
I still like it :D
<yorickpeterse>
People even taking it seriously is an insult to decades of language development
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<MichD>
I think you should take it seriously for simply its wide usage
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<MichD>
but in the end it was developed in a very short time period
<yorickpeterse>
Yes, lets take PHP serious for it's wide usage
<[spoiler]>
I agree it's a bit shitty sometimes, but I like it anyway
<yorickpeterse>
ignoring that it's the dumbest language out there
<[spoiler]>
I've been forced to work with far worse, to be honest
<yorickpeterse>
random case in point:
<r0bgleeson>
i like javascript
<MichD>
So if you want to code something on the client side, what else are your options?
<[spoiler]>
eeh, php ent een a languuj.
<yorickpeterse>
[10] + [10] => "1010"
<MichD>
that is, in the browser
<[spoiler]>
MichD: Opal.rb, coffeescript
<[spoiler]>
:D
<yorickpeterse>
MichD: that has nothing to do with the power of JS and everything with the monopoly
<yorickpeterse>
it's because browser vendors choose to only natively support JS
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<yorickpeterse>
Requiring plugins for the rest
<MichD>
true enough
<yorickpeterse>
It has *nothing* to do with how "edgy" JS is w/e
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<[spoiler]>
yorickpeterse: that's because JS was the first language to be available to browsers (afaik). We're stuck with DNS in the same way
<yorickpeterse>
Again, that has nothing to do with its quality
<yorickpeterse>
It's the monopoly
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<yorickpeterse>
if C was the only language today that wouldn't make it any less painful, it would simply make it that: the only language
<r0bgleeson>
it's not so simple to fix the broken things in JS
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<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: I'm not advocating to fix it, I'm advocating to replace it
<r0bgleeson>
and JS can be the "VM bytecode" if you want, a la coffeescript
<yorickpeterse>
that's a terrible idea, but asm.js is a different topic
<r0bgleeson>
i think you miss my point, probably
<r0bgleeson>
you can bring new languages by compiling to JS
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<yorickpeterse>
If you build a language on top of JS you still suffer the same quirks, you can only hide them so much
<[spoiler]>
r0bgleeson: JavaScript is the C of browsers :P
<yorickpeterse>
You're still bound to the limitations of JS
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<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: you can guard against the crazy in your new language
<r0bgleeson>
and what limitations? JS is a fun language because the environment(browser) is fun
<MichD>
I honestly don't have a problem with JS
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<[spoiler]>
Alas, we can just agree that yorickpeterse loathes JS, and that the rest of us don't mind it. Y/N?
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<yorickpeterse>
pretty sure I'm not the only one
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<ljarvis>
fuck js
<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: random one, if your language has to iterate over Object you need to do the hasOwnProperty dance. You can hide that for the end user, but it's still there
<MichD>
fine by me, I never saw the point in arguing about qualities of languages; it's not gonna make it go away
<yorickpeterse>
it would be much nicer/simpler if there simply wasn't a need for it
<yorickpeterse>
MichD: could say the same thing about any political issue
<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: that's nothing you can't hide from your own language
<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: read again
<ljarvis>
thats it, im writing go this morning
<MichD>
yorickpeterse: does ranting about a political issue on an irc channel make it go away?
<r0bgleeson>
sure, but, C isn't as nice as ruby either
<r0bgleeson>
it will let you SIGSEGV easily
<r0bgleeson>
ruby wont
<yorickpeterse>
MichD: you're thinking I'm only ranting about it
<yorickpeterse>
and again, same point I made earlier applies
<yorickpeterse>
Talking about something gets you a long way
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<r0bgleeson>
JS is nothing but an intermediate if you really hate it and want an alternativ
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<r0bgleeson>
e
<yorickpeterse>
LLVM for example is around for a reason: compiling down to C is a pita
<[spoiler]>
Every language has its problems/quirks/something someone doesn't like. It's like talking about pie flavours.
<ljarvis>
mmmm pie
<yorickpeterse>
Again, could say the same thing about any political/cultural issue, does that make it worthless to talk about it?
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<r0bgleeson>
its how you talk about it
<yorickpeterse>
I don't beat around the bush, you know that :)
<[spoiler]>
yorickpeterse: I mean, I understand why you would dislike it, but you're being a bit antagonistic towards JS. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you don't like the pie, don't eat the pie :D
<yorickpeterse>
[spoiler]: that's the fucking thing, there's no properly supported alternative
<yorickpeterse>
that's the whole point
<ljarvis>
who the fuck doesn't like pie
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<yorickpeterse>
I would *LOVE* to use something else, but I can't without enforcing users to run some edgy version of Chrome with Nacl or install 15 plugins that all introduce security holes
<r0bgleeson>
coffeescript is worse than JS imo
<yorickpeterse>
coffeescript shifts the problems
<yorickpeterse>
it hides some of the common ones but introduces new ones
<r0bgleeson>
awful syntax
<yorickpeterse>
plus the compiler is dumb as hell
<ljarvis>
im gonna compile my go to js
<r0bgleeson>
cyborg mutant of a language
<[spoiler]>
ljarvis: LMAO, that would be nice
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<yorickpeterse>
ljarvis: I was actually thinking of hacking Node.js on top of Rbx
<Nilium>
It's a nice idea that misses the point.
<yorickpeterse>
and make it run faster for shits and giggles
<ljarvis>
i hate everything node represents
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<ljarvis>
and i really really hate event drivin code
<yorickpeterse>
case in point, if we had for example Lua in the browser natively I would be super happy
<Nilium>
The thing I don't get is clojurescript.
<yorickpeterse>
or Python, or Ruby (if it were faster)
<ljarvis>
lua is beautiful
<r0bgleeson>
oh, clojurescript i could dig
<[spoiler]>
I wish we could use Ruby in the browser (or at least a dialect of ruby), and I'm not talking about opal
<yorickpeterse>
Instead ECMA slaps everybody in the face with a giant cock with "Crockford" written on top of it
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<r0bgleeson>
[spoiler]: link to opal?
<lianj>
[spoiler]: mruby
<ljarvis>
obligatory "Cockford"
<r0bgleeson>
lianj: opal is the langauge i was thinking of im pretty sure
<yorickpeterse>
[spoiler]: there was some Emscripten thing for mruby in Chrome
<r0bgleeson>
not typescript
<yorickpeterse>
ljarvis: zing
<Nilium>
I can't, because holy god damn the size of the "runtime" that thing drags in
<yorickpeterse>
in unrelated news, fuck model validations with CarrierWave
<ljarvis>
r0bgleeson: you write go right?
<[spoiler]>
Wat, a whitespace language?? wat
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<r0bgleeson>
ljarvis: nah, not really, i was interested for a while
<lianj>
i wish mruby would evolve and become faster than mri
<ljarvis>
yarly
<ljarvis>
r0bgleeson: ah ok
<lianj>
can't beat ruby syntax
<ljarvis>
lianj: i wish ruby would evolve and become faster than ruby
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<[spoiler]>
lianj: oh I wish that, too
<whitequark>
sigh
<[spoiler]>
ljarvis: rubinius :D
<lianj>
ljarvis: still? :D
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<ljarvis>
lianj: yeah, looks like 2.1 is gonna be a nice improvement too
<lianj>
rbx is dead, and ruby too, they said it
<ljarvis>
[spoiler]: im not really into rbx
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<[spoiler]>
lianj: are you refering to Rubinius X?
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<r0bgleeson>
lianj: people still believe in rubinius
<r0bgleeson>
and brixen still commits to it
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<yorickpeterse>
what makes you think rbx would be dead?
<ljarvis>
mehhhh brixen
<lianj>
[spoiler]: yes, but jokingly
<[spoiler]>
Rubinius X sounds like a nice idea, ngl
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<r0bgleeson>
i dont understand what Rubinius X is
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<r0bgleeson>
should be interesting either way
<whitequark>
a cleaner version of ruby
<[spoiler]>
r0bgleeson: ruby without all the bad parts
<r0bgleeson>
whitequark: thats very vague
<lianj>
whitequark: like mruby or ruby iso spec?
<[spoiler]>
well, it's still a vague idea
<whitequark>
lianj: no, rubinius x is not backwards-compatible. mruby and isospec are.
<[spoiler]>
No, RbX^2 would be a derivative of Ruby. It would be another, but similar, language to Ruby
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<lianj>
hm the isospec isn't 100 backwards compatible
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<dbussink>
you could write a language that implements the isospec but doesn't run any significant amount of ruby code
<whitequark>
isospec is compatible in the sense that 1.8.7, 1.9.x, 2.x are implementing the spec
<whitequark>
rubinius x is not
<lianj>
whitequark: really? but all those have isospec + more
<yorickpeterse>
Ruby doesn't exactly follow its own specs
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<lianj>
but true, in that sense its backwards compatible
<yorickpeterse>
MRI at least
<dbussink>
does isospec say anything about encodings? magic regexp globals?
<[spoiler]>
Did anyone even start working on Rbx X, though
<r0bgleeson>
it doesnt have a spec to follow?
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<dbussink>
dunno the exact current state, but it didn't when i read it at least
<whitequark>
dbussink: I think it at least includes global variables
<whitequark>
and defines $\d+
<r0bgleeson>
i was under the impression 'spec' was defined on redmine.ruby-lang.org most of the time
<dbussink>
whitequark: regular globals i guess so yeah
<whitequark>
r0bgleeson: isospec is not very useful to us mortals
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<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: part of the problem is that it seems people still think that MRI == spec
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<whitequark>
lol, that's because it *is*
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: no as in, "herp derp MRI does X so everybody else must"
<dbussink>
it's not exactly
<yorickpeterse>
opposed to "we want to do X, would this work for everybody else and if so, how?"
<dbussink>
there are parts where mri says "this is an implementation detail"
<dbussink>
but that is not explicit for a lot of parts, only a few because they've come up a bunch of times
<whitequark>
dbussink: ok, MRI is as closest to the spec as ruby has
<whitequark>
since isospec is woefully underdefined
<r0bgleeson>
rubyspec is a good definition
<whitequark>
I'm not even sure if it's actually useful for anything except getting certification you need.
<lianj>
and the spec was build after mri by their authors :D
<r0bgleeson>
which is defined via MRI behavior a lot of the time id guess
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<whitequark>
r0bgleeson: the problem with rubyspec is that a specification defines not only what *should* happen but also what *should not* happen
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<whitequark>
and it's not possible to assert that some behavior never happens, unit-test-style
<whitequark>
so rubyspec isn't
<whitequark>
it's a valuable tool but not a language specification at all.
<r0bgleeson>
yeah, and its not a written document
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<[spoiler]>
Ugh. Why does this have to be such a mess
<whitequark>
it's not like languages with a proper spec are much cleaner
<r0bgleeson>
i dont think its a mess
<whitequark>
I mean, look at ISO C++ and MSVC.
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<r0bgleeson>
its how ruby has always worked
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<yorickpeterse>
Python has specs
<yorickpeterse>
nobody follows them though
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<yorickpeterse>
except for some reason PEP8, because tabs vs spaces is much more important than having multiple URL libraries, logging libraries, etc that are all equally bad
<yorickpeterse>
or 3 (though now 2) packaging systems
<whitequark>
Java has a spec that works rather well
<yorickpeterse>
Java is probably the only one
<whitequark>
CLR?
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<yorickpeterse>
Never looked at it that much so unsure
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<r0bgleeson>
i dont think its fair to expect ruby to establish a 'board' or 'body' to debate specs.
<r0bgleeson>
matz doesnt appear to work or develop that way
<r0bgleeson>
its also a bit.. oracle?
<[spoiler]>
Oh, well. I find solace in the knowledge that Ruby is not the only one with these problems.
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<yorickpeterse>
it doesn't have to be a board of directors
<[spoiler]>
r0bgleeson: Well, not a board, but what does and does not get into the spec should be decided by some type of public vote or something
<yorickpeterse>
but this attitude of "Ruby is still solely mine and I decide" is dumb as hell
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<yorickpeterse>
e.g. look at the Linux kernel
<r0bgleeson>
i dont think its that malicious
<yorickpeterse>
Linus still decides but there are many people making decisions
<r0bgleeson>
more likely a communication/co-operation problem
<yorickpeterse>
it can ultimately become malicious
<yorickpeterse>
because nobody wants to play with you
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<yorickpeterse>
(basically)
<[spoiler]>
Also, why's there #ruby and #ruby-lang anyway
<r0bgleeson>
everyone brings their own issues to the table
<r0bgleeson>
its not a table of one-sided blame
* [spoiler]
was completely random back there
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<r0bgleeson>
it would be nice if new features were defined within a spec that all implementations could use to implement the feature set for the next release
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<yorickpeterse>
A start would be a single platform outside of redmine that solely focuses on spec related work that affects all implementations
<yorickpeterse>
and a clearer definition of "This is specific to MRI or generic"
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<r0bgleeson>
yup
<r0bgleeson>
that sounds helpful
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<r0bgleeson>
dont think its fair to demand that to happen though
<r0bgleeson>
you have to meet halfway sometimes
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<wnd>
for example, my default shell is dash, but my interactive shell is zsh. luckily there's little difference between the two for scripts that have been written to work with sh.
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<wnd>
you can always run `echo $0` in irb to see which shell is used for "backticks"
<soahccc>
it's sh
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<wnd>
try `which echo` and then run the same thing (without backtick) in your interactive shell
<soahccc>
just did it and it's the same /bin/echo
<soahccc>
a `ls -l` works though (it uses -l)
<wnd>
anyway, `printf "#{url}" | pbcopy` should do pretty much the same things
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<wnd>
in terms of evaluating the value of url in shell, it isn't any safer than echo -n, though
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<soahccc>
wnd: Thanks... spooky echo :( The names are all URL safe so I shouldn't need to escape them further
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