<jow_laptop>
kyak: the "moc" dependencies look odd
<jow_laptop>
kyak: and alex4 is definitevely recursive
<jow_laptop>
moc has "depends !(PACKAGE_libncursesw) || PACKAGE_libncurses", "select PACKAGE_libncurses if !PACKAGE_libncursesw" and "select PACKAGE_libncursesw if PACKAGE_libncursesw"
<jow_laptop>
no wonder menuconfig is acting weird
<kyak>
jow_laptop: alex4 - yea, i know
<kyak>
moc has this line: +PACKAGE_libncursesw:libncursesw +!PACKAGE_libncursesw:libncurses
<jow_laptop>
yeah, not sure if that is going to work
<jow_laptop>
at least it should not result in a "select" directive
<kyak>
i think it means "if ncursesw is selected, depend on it; if ncursesw is not selected, depend on ncurses"
<kyak>
btw, it was you who suggested to use this dependency like this ;)
<jow_laptop>
yeah
<jow_laptop>
we need to compe up with something better
<jow_laptop>
the easiest fix would be to just make it depend on ncursesw
<kyak>
yeah
<kyak>
is it possible to utilize CONFIG_BUILD_NLS for this purpose?
<kyak>
for exmaple, make CONFIG_BUILD_NLS select ncursesw
<kyak>
then we can just +BUILD_NLS:libncursesw +!BUILD_NLS:libncurses
<jow_laptop>
yes, that would make sense I suppose
<jow_laptop>
I'll discuss it with the other devs
<kyak>
sure, thanks
<jow_laptop>
before we're hunting ghosts however, can you check whether your menuconfig goes back to normal after "./scripts/feeds uninstall moc libpurple" ?
<kyak>
though it was discussed to have a separate flag for wide char support. It could be used then to affect certain options in uclibc, busybox and ncursesw-dependant apps
<jow_laptop>
actually I would prefer a separate wide char option too
<kyak>
one sec
<kyak>
jow_laptop: it behaves well now! :)
<kyak>
i also uninstalled mc, which is from qi-packages repo and also using this kind of dependencies
<jow_laptop>
k, I suppose alex4 and mc are easily fixed
<kyak>
what is the best way to fix mc now?
<jow_laptop>
hm, the only immediate solution I can think of right now is to provide a manual Kconfig snippet which adds a config menu for mc with two choices for wide char or not
<jow_laptop>
to havem or control over the dependencies, the autogenerated ones are too verbose
<kyak>
oh!
<kyak>
for alex4, i think it makes sense to make alex4-data depend on alex4
<jow_laptop>
not sure, I usually organize my deps top-down
<kyak>
if they both depend on each other, then it doesn't make sense to split the package anyway :)
<jow_laptop>
so alex4 depends on alex4-data
<kyak>
then someone can install alex4-data without intalling alex4
<kyak>
doesn't matter.. i'll do it your way
<jow_laptop>
well alex4 needs alex4-data to run
<jow_laptop>
alex4-data is usable by itself
<jow_laptop>
provided someone indeed only wants the artwork or whatever
<kyak>
..or, someone wants just alex4 and then use his own data or whatever ;)
<kyak>
jow_laptop: regarding mc. Should it be soemthing similar to packages/multimedia/ffmpeg/Config.in ?
<kyak>
jow_laptop: or, maybe Variants is a better way?
<jow_laptop>
not sure
<jow_laptop>
I'd use the Config.in approach
<jow_laptop>
and make the defaults state there depend on CONFIG_NLS
<jow_laptop>
a build variant for mc to merely select the libncurses flavor is probably overkill
<kyak>
ok.. i'll try it with mc. If it works fine, similar can be done to moc and others
<wolfspraul>
marcan: hey :-)
<wolfspraul>
just see your nick and I remember lasers :-)
<wolfspraul>
we have since released the full Milkymist One product, ready with all bells and whistles... https://sharism.cc/milkymist
<wolfspraul>
I'm still very much looking forward to any progress with your laser project
<wolfspraul>
no rush of course, good things take some time...
<wolfspraul>
if you need any help, please holler
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: apropos "release" ... maybe relabel the old release as a "beta release" and try a broader announcement for M1rc4 ?
<wpwrak>
since some journalists may have seen the one on the reg, it may be a little easier to get them to pay attention
<kyak>
jow_laptop: could you please have a look at: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/mc/ (Makefile and Config.in). It seems to work fine, however, i can't add libncurses{w} to DEPENDS. If i do it like "+MC_ENABLE_WIDECHAR:libncursesw +!MC_ENABLE_WIDECHAR:libncurses", it leads to recursive dependancy again
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes definitely, m1 is so new/different that it can be launched/reported about in different ways
<wolfspraul>
the difficulty is in getting people to really like it
<wolfspraul>
that takes time
<wpwrak>
how many "real" VJs and clubs use it now on a regular basis ? i think references would do a lot to boost credibility
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
you know I'm conversative about these kinds of success stories, so I'd put the number at 0 right now :-)
<wpwrak>
well, think of it as freeriding - someone else has already done the hard work of evaluation and vetting for you :)
<wolfspraul>
some people have it, but 'regular basis' is maybe too much
<wpwrak>
okay, the time is a bit short for much habit forming
<wpwrak>
you can use the "regular basis" as an internal criterion. in the sense that they're either still working on integrating it into their show or at least bring it out every now and then
<wpwrak>
and then maybe ask each if they can send you a picture of the club/show with some typical M1 effect
<wolfspraul>
I don't think M1 today has such irresistible features that clubs will just line up to give it that kind of attention
<wolfspraul>
I am learning more and more about this scene, and we have to fight a little for a place for M1
<wolfspraul>
low power consumption is the most outstanding technical feature where M1 is really unique
<wpwrak>
no, i mean the places that already have it. e.g., that club in bejing. is that the only one ?
<wolfspraul>
but that's hardly a good argument in a club with thousands, or even tens of thousands of watt of power use :-)
<wpwrak>
why do people care about power consumption in M1 ? right next to it is equipment that draws 1000x or maybe 10000x the power ...
<wpwrak>
yeah ;-)
<wpwrak>
i don't see power consumption as an argument anywhere :)
<wolfspraul>
the club in Beijing (Lantern) was not interested in the end
<wpwrak>
(lantern) aw :-(
<wolfspraul>
you mean we don't talk about it enough ? [power consumption]
<wolfspraul>
or you mean it cannot work with anybody?
<wpwrak>
(lantern) did they explain why ?
<wpwrak>
the latetr
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't say that, I've heard from several people that there is a real rush/movement of some people towards low power stuff.
<wolfspraul>
but I doubt that in the club context, for sure
<wpwrak>
M1 power consumption doesn't really matter. it would if M1 was battery-powered, but since it needs mains anyway, a few watts more or less are irrelevant
<wolfspraul>
yes yes, sure
<jow_laptop>
kyak: hm, can't you just add select statements to Config.in and leave the DEPENDS:= out ?
<wolfspraul>
I am just saying after learning more and more about this scene, that is the #1 tech feature that really stands as being outstanding
<wpwrak>
(low power trend) yes, that's true. but M1 misses that on all ends. in the clubs, because they already waste power like there's no tomorrow. in homes, because its standby is fairly power-hungry.
<wolfspraul>
the second one would be video latency, but I haven't yet found someone who would say that's a killer feature
<wolfspraul>
I hope we remove standby anyway, and have people completely shut power to turn it off
<wpwrak>
aren't they happy about the integration of interfaces ?
<wpwrak>
(cut power) maybe add a switch ? ;-)
<kyak>
jow_laptop: i tried to, but it seems to ignore select statements from COnfig.in
<wolfspraul>
[lantern] I don't think they ever were interested, the little interest they showed was because Jon talked them into it hard and eventually I guess they wanted to be nice to Jon :-)
<wpwrak>
(lantern) mmh, i see
<wolfspraul>
but even if we would loan them one, I doubt it would be in regular, if any, use. especially after they run into the first problem. waste of time imho, unless they come around and get it and really like it.
<wolfspraul>
you cannot force/talk a customer into liking a product, that's just impossible. people have to come to you.
<wolfspraul>
[integration] no, haven't heard that
<wolfspraul>
what I learnt now is this:
<wpwrak>
maybe you could work with a VJ instead of the club per se
<wolfspraul>
visual alone is not that attractive
<wolfspraul>
so few clubs will say "if we have a 24/7 visual performance running on the projector, we will sell more drinks"
<wolfspraul>
the problem with M1 running all the time would be that it would get boring too fast
<wpwrak>
makes sense
<wolfspraul>
the way we can customize and update patches is too difficult for the regular club
<wpwrak>
maybe in a few years, with thousands of effects ...
<wolfspraul>
they cannot just upload/integrate pictures from a USB stick
<wolfspraul>
yes correct
<wolfspraul>
many things are imaginable
<wolfspraul>
but right now we have 54 patches and they are rotating and that's it
<wolfspraul>
so for all-time use, it gets boring too fast and is too hard to customize
<wpwrak>
plus one real-life vj working on more, so there's hope :)
<wolfspraul>
so what the clubs are doing is to get human dj/vj into their place once in a while, say on a saturday
<wolfspraul>
that works well because it can be advertised etc.
<wolfspraul>
which also advertises the name of the club for the mon-fri guests
<wolfspraul>
and those vjs have their notebook-based setup and it's very hard to make them use m1
<wpwrak>
(hard customization) yeah. the setup logic is still very technical. okay for IT folks or artists who don't mind taking their time to really learn their instrument, but nothing you'd sell as "oh just plug it in and it'll look great"
<wolfspraul>
it start with "pull pics from a usb stick"
<wolfspraul>
people just expect this kind of stuff to work
<wolfspraul>
maybe Apple can get away with not having USB
<wolfspraul>
but not us :-)
<wolfspraul>
but don't get me wrong, I think M1 will find its place
<wpwrak>
with a large enough set of effects, you could also add "like / don't like"Â Â buttons. then the club folks could just tweak the show a little as it runs
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
absolutely
<wolfspraul>
if we have a site we could categorize and rate patches
<wpwrak>
(afaik, milkdrop has just such a thing)
<wolfspraul>
could could could
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
m1 could be good for installations
<wolfspraul>
but that takes time to get known in that field
<wolfspraul>
and then most customers will want this or that customization, and may quickly run into something that can easily be customized with a notebook setup
<wolfspraul>
even if expensive
<wpwrak>
so, if you don't expect to be able to reach the masses, focus on the premium segment ? metal case, 10x the price ?
<wolfspraul>
but expensive is not necessarily bad for a pro/artist/designer
<wolfspraul>
that way his markup also goes up :-)
<wolfspraul>
nah not sure, it will find its place
<wolfspraul>
you just ask as if there would be this large number of clubs crazy to play it, sending us piles of pro shots of m1 in use at their clubs etc.
<wolfspraul>
the reality is that none of this exists today
<wolfspraul>
there were 3 concerts in Warsaw using m1
<wolfspraul>
usta, masala, masecki
<wolfspraul>
ok?
<wolfspraul>
now...
<wolfspraul>
after about a month, and many many emails and asking, we have 1.5 video recordings of those 3 concerts
<wolfspraul>
I tried to reach the artists with some very simple interview questions about their use of milkymist at their concert
<wpwrak>
i'm not asking for piles. and not for recordings. just a picture that shows M1 in action at a different site.
<wolfspraul>
things like "did you like it?" "do you think the audience liked it?" "do you want to use it again?"
<wolfspraul>
so far: zero answers :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think they don't care actually.
<wolfspraul>
sebastien was there and did all this on that projector in the background.
<wpwrak>
ah, so they may not even have noticed ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and jon is telling me the audience liked it and came in front of the camera etc.
<wolfspraul>
yes [not noticed]
<wolfspraul>
something not far above that :-)
<wpwrak>
did any VJs talk to sebastien afterwards ?
<wolfspraul>
need to ask him
<wolfspraul>
we have a few serious guys who bought it
<wolfspraul>
I need to follow up
<wolfspraul>
someone in Munich, someone in Australia, no-carrier in New York
<wolfspraul>
but it's crazy time consuming to followup
<wolfspraul>
and people may just buy the box to try out, and then end up not doing much
<wpwrak>
that's already a nice geographical distribution
<wolfspraul>
I cannot spend large amounts of energy to run after people and extract little snippets if the root cause of the hardship is that they don't care much about the product.
<wpwrak>
you need to find someone in asia, too. asia is the boom continent while the old world goes to hell :)
<wolfspraul>
so they need to come forward themselves
<wolfspraul>
they need to blog
<wolfspraul>
they need to upload great pics and videos
<wolfspraul>
they need to try hard to get new patches included in updates
<wolfspraul>
and so on
<wolfspraul>
until that happens, I focus my energy on finding new customers :)
<wpwrak>
c'mon. it can't be that hard to ping them every once in a while. if they have happy or unhappy news, they'll let you know
<wolfspraul>
nope
<wpwrak>
the main risk will be that they come with unreasonable expectations
<wolfspraul>
no the main risk is that I write an email, and get no response
<wolfspraul>
that means I wasted some minutes of my life that will never come back
<wolfspraul>
sounds small, but it adds up, trust me :-)
<wolfspraul>
I could spend half day each day run after nanonote or m1 customers that disappeared into silence
<wolfspraul>
can't do it
<wolfspraul>
they paid, fine. I spend my energy improving the product and understanding how to make it easier to use.
<wpwrak>
okay, but one mail will reach 33% of your customer base. other folks need to spend megadollars and months of work to do that ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so bottom line: understanding the features and scene and potential buyers (and non-buyers) better is helping us to focus our marketing, so we quickly find more actual customers
<wolfspraul>
m1 is very unique, as a package
<wolfspraul>
some things are easier than elsewhere, others harder
<wpwrak>
how do you find and approach potential buyers ?
<wolfspraul>
in some comparisons it's very cheap, in others too expensive
<DocScrutinizer>
they're customers, they're free to not bother, to not spend even 30s on reading or answering mail. Their focus may have changed, temporarily or permanent
<wolfspraul>
yes of course, correct
<wolfspraul>
just following leads and ideas
<wolfspraul>
companies, journalists, students, etc.
<wpwrak>
sebastien's approach of going to events where artists go to look for new trends and ideas sounds promising, but also very labour-intensive
<wpwrak>
hmm, so all from the home office
<wolfspraul>
for me yes, definitely. Jon is traveling.
<wpwrak>
yeah, he has that M1 demo suitcase ;-)
<wolfspraul>
sebastien has been very successful at finding actual paying customers
<wpwrak>
(sebastien) good. his approach sounds like the best way to get new people involved to me. spend time with them. make sure they already know the M1 a little when you're done with them. "fire and forget" e-mails don't have that effect.
<DocScrutinizer>
I don't need to explain my concerns about very low total market for such a specialized product
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe - with the right software - you could approach private "posse" TV stations (those only broadcasting to one block, or max one town. Usually ran by hobbyinsts)
<DocScrutinizer>
they also are already becoming obsolete in times of internet streaming, but may still be a market as large or larger than VJs
<wolfspraul>
sorry disconnect
<DocScrutinizer>
I don't need to explain my concerns about very low total market for such a specialized product
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe - with the right software - you could approach private "posse" TV stations (those only broadcasting to one block, or max one town. Usually ran by hobbyinsts)
<DocScrutinizer>
they also are already becoming obsolete in times of internet streaming, but may still be a market as large or larger than VJs
<wolfspraul>
so I don't know how sebastien sees the results of his events right now
<wolfspraul>
I don't think the market is small/specialized
<wolfspraul>
not at all
<wolfspraul>
we hvae to learn, be patient, build a brand, build an awesome product
<DocScrutinizer>
you sound like an evangelist :-D
<wolfspraul>
it needs the right feature mix, right brand, right channel and marketing partners, right price, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
HTC just paid 500 million USD for a headphone company
<wolfspraul>
dr. dre's beats
<wolfspraul>
I just take one random example
<wolfspraul>
why are thye doing that?
<DocScrutinizer>
*everybody* is using headphones nowadays
<wolfspraul>
on the headphone side - why are people paying 100-600 USD for a headphone?
<DocScrutinizer>
I don't even *know* any VJ
<DocScrutinizer>
never even seen any
<wolfspraul>
they paid 500 _million_ USD for a headphone company
<wolfspraul>
we are on the same page
<wolfspraul>
with Milkymist a lot of things are new *at once*
<wolfspraul>
new brand
<wolfspraul>
new technology
<wolfspraul>
new channel
<wolfspraul>
new product category
<wolfspraul>
that's pretty crazy
<wolfspraul>
normally one of those is new, the rest is stable/known
<wolfspraul>
if all those 4 are new, well, all bets are off
<wolfspraul>
there are thousands of KTVs
<wolfspraul>
tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of bars and nightclubs
<DocScrutinizer>
from a manufacturer POV that's correct. From a market survey POV I have a hard time to figure who's going to buy the product
<wolfspraul>
millions of under-used projectors in offices, lobbies, restaurants
<wolfspraul>
there must be 1 gazillion screens all over asia
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, that's why we sold only about 40 now
<wolfspraul>
and not 40,000 or 40 million
<DocScrutinizer>
that's maybe a little bit like building special high power hydraulic pumps for those who make their cars jump by playing with a joystick. I barely know *anything* about that very special scene
<wolfspraul>
yes but you know milkymist is not that specialized actually
<wolfspraul>
we have to shape it well
<wolfspraul>
and maybe new brand/tech/channel/category is too much
<wolfspraul>
but it's all fine right now, things are moving
<wolfspraul>
I didn't expect you to buy one, for example :-)
<wpwrak>
let's look at the infrastructure
<wolfspraul>
should I make 300 USD headphones and I would have a chance with you then? :-)
<wpwrak>
those unused tvs and projectors are probably doing something. in restaurants, they show tv. in bars, they show music videos or sports
<wolfspraul>
a lot are off
<wolfspraul>
but the problem there is m1 gets too boring too fast
<wolfspraul>
when run unattended
<wolfspraul>
VJs seem to be a bunch of people that likes to experiment
<wolfspraul>
another angle
<wpwrak>
in clubs, they're probably only installed if they first have someone who will use it
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can get VJs to sell m1
<wolfspraul>
to clubs
<wolfspraul>
but then we might need to stop selling direct
<wolfspraul>
so the VJs can sell for 999 USD :-)
<wpwrak>
does it even make sense for a club to own an M1 ?
<wolfspraul>
good question
<wolfspraul>
does it attract more people?
<wolfspraul>
I cannot answer that question
<wolfspraul>
since it's just a machine/box, it doesn't have the same kind of appeal as a human dj/vj 'playing' on the weekend
<wolfspraul>
it does look pretty nice though, but gets boring. that's my personal impression.
<wolfspraul>
the boring is fixable
<wolfspraul>
but even if we can fix that - would a club want to do it?
<wolfspraul>
need to talk to more club owners, it's that simple
<wpwrak>
hwo do you fix the boring without adding a Vj to the bill ?
<wpwrak>
TV solves the boring. at least from a visual point of view.
<wolfspraul>
a human VJ can never be beaten on boring
<wolfspraul>
but m1 could improve a lot
<wpwrak>
you don't have to beat him
<wolfspraul>
more patches, easy way to feed still pics
<wolfspraul>
other small improvements
<wolfspraul>
like excluding some unwanted patches easily
<wolfspraul>
this that, small things
<wolfspraul>
but lets' assume boring is fixed
<wolfspraul>
would the club want it?
<wolfspraul>
not sure
<wolfspraul>
what is the main argument for the club?
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<wolfspraul>
we will learn those things
<wpwrak>
maybe you need to bundle effects and audio. since M1 needs a lot of tuning to do nice things with music, an unattended M1 only reveals a tiny fraction of its appeal
<wolfspraul>
maybe Lantern will work out later
<wolfspraul>
they have a big renovation in November, and will look at it again after that
<wolfspraul>
but it's telling that they want to look at m1 *after* the renovation
<wolfspraul>
rather than including it in their thoughts during the renovation :-)
<wolfspraul>
their focus are speakers, lights
<wpwrak>
yeah. that's the chinese "no" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wpwrak>
you're impolite for not understanding it and staying away :)
<wolfspraul>
I'm also learning about led walls
<wolfspraul>
but whenever it comes to new features, most likely an (expensive) notebook setup will already have that feature in some hw/sw combination
<wolfspraul>
led walls may have unusual aspect ratios
<wolfspraul>
and unusual color requirements
<wolfspraul>
I agree with Sebastien that we should focus on selling the features we have today, rather than blindly adding feature after feature until we find one that sells.
<wolfspraul>
the magic is more in brand/channel/message I think
<DocScrutinizer>
just go the idea of discotheques that quite frequently use some lightshow for their dancing floor. With M1 you can have fancy lighshow by just using a good projector. Don't know or see any pub or club or whatever running a M1 for 24/7 entertainment of customers sipping their beer
<wolfspraul>
if the entire world would fully understand what m1 could do today, we would have thousands of orders tomorrow, I'm sure
<wpwrak>
led walls are only relevant to the point of them being competition for projectors. so don't try to sell M1 to a club that's already invested into a LED wall instead of a projcor
<wpwrak>
(sell the features we have) yes ! :)
<wolfspraul>
btu like I said, with having a new tech, new brand, new channel and new category all at once, we do have an uphill battle ahead of us
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: and btw, that's obvious but still - hackers can take this 'video synthesizer' and see a general purpose computer in it, and hack it into whatever they are capable of
<wpwrak>
the new tech doesn't really matter because you're not selling the tech. new brand shouldn't matter all that much either. you're just one of a gazillion nobodies. so that's the "nobody brand", already perfectly well established all over the world
<wolfspraul>
that's also potential 'customers'
<wolfspraul>
oh but the new tech is unproven
<wolfspraul>
people will figure that out quickly
<wpwrak>
why, besides the hackers, will ever know ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so channel people ask "existing brand? no" "proven tech? no"
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I'd probably see a better market in that "hacker approach"
<wolfspraul>
it's justmore and more risks, because all those 4 things are new *at once*
<wolfspraul>
that's very unusual/rare, because so risky
<wolfspraul>
normally you pick one of them, and innovate
<wolfspraul>
existing brand/tech, new channel
<wolfspraul>
existing tech, new brand
<wolfspraul>
existing channel, new brand
<wolfspraul>
existing brand, new tech
<wolfspraul>
whatever
<wolfspraul>
but not all at once :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
AIUI M1 is pretty capable of doing industry grade object tracking, face recog, all sorts of scientific image processing
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: the problem is that wolfgang doesn't have the financial resources to properly develop M1. so he needs to sell it before the hackers had their chance to make it do more cool things.
<DocScrutinizer>
yes, that's understood
<DocScrutinizer>
so the IT tool provider market (dunno a better word) is a main target market for this device
<wpwrak>
i think it's pretty much as i predicted - M1 looks like an excellent long-term project but a very hard short-term sale. so it will not become a success based on its merits alone. it needs a good dose of luck.
<wolfspraul>
sure
<DocScrutinizer>
needs a completely different housing (or no housing at all) for that
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can take out some of those 'new' items
<wolfspraul>
find an existing channel
<wolfspraul>
or an existing brand
<DocScrutinizer>
sell via psarkfun or sth like that
<DocScrutinizer>
sparkfun
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I'm glad I don't have more money to waste into hobby projects :-)
<wolfspraul>
business = sales
<wpwrak>
for existing brands, you may need to have a better track record of commercial success
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe even thinkgeek
<wolfspraul>
M1 is definitely 'properly developed', unless we include the brand, channel development, those are lacking indeed, and the focus now
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
an existing brand knows they have channel strength
<wolfspraul>
they look at the technology only
<wolfspraul>
their problem will be the openess :-)
<wpwrak>
maybe that too
<DocScrutinizer>
see Medion wikireader X-P
<wolfspraul>
so for the time being, we go all the way out and reach to the end user
<wolfspraul>
that's the right approach imho
<wolfspraul>
bypass everything...
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<wolfspraul>
50% of rc3 is sold after a few weeks
<wolfspraul>
not bad
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: if you want to have one, let me know :-)
<wolfspraul>
calling it a day now...
<wolfspraul>
just shipped another one to Norway today
<DocScrutinizer>
WR? why not
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist One of course
<wolfspraul>
(and I was joking)
<DocScrutinizer>
M!? sure as hell
<wpwrak>
to reach brands, you may have to go to trade shows and have a booth. when their folks walk around to see what the competition is doing, they may spot you
<wpwrak>
still a long shot
<wpwrak>
or get into the trade press
<wolfspraul>
many will want to control their technology
<wpwrak>
catch 22 :)
<wolfspraul>
and since m1 is open, they cannot buy & inhouse it
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien talked with Roland for example
<wpwrak>
yeah, customer lock-in is a missing feature :)
<wolfspraul>
they like it, but want full control from Japan etc.
<wolfspraul>
maybe Sebastien could move to Japan and get a job there
<wolfspraul>
that would probably work
<wolfspraul>
and on his first day he would have to sign a contract that would disallow him from ever making a contribution under gpl again :-)
<wolfspraul>
(kidding, kidding)
<wpwrak>
sign in blood
<DocScrutinizer>
without at least 1/8 page ad in c't you won't enter any 'business' on the IT supplier market
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: wolfgang thinks c't is too provincial
<DocScrutinizer>
LOL
<wolfspraul>
I email them tomorrow :-)
<wpwrak>
finally ;-)
<wolfspraul>
they are very picky though, which is OK but just saying
<wpwrak>
they totally dig open and underdogs. what else could you wish for ?
<wolfspraul>
well it will not translate into sales for sure
<wolfspraul>
imho
<wolfspraul>
but some more wise-cracking along the lines of slashdot
<wpwrak>
they're merciless on the tech, but they go out of their way to still make it sound nice if they like you
<DocScrutinizer>
make damn sure to properly emphasise the general purpose nature of M1 for $RANDOM kind of image processing though, when you approach c't - they are not very much interested in VJing, nor are their readers
<wolfspraul>
I think best bet is people who really love music and video
<wpwrak>
there's no forum on the printed c't ;-)
<wolfspraul>
all that is up to them
<wolfspraul>
I will email them, then we see
<wpwrak>
and the technical novelty. new open SoC (pretty much the first one that actually does something) is a pretty strong feature for c't. maybe you could even get two articles - one on the VJ side, the other hardcore on the tech
<DocScrutinizer>
quite usually you send them a good press release article, and they pick passages and rewrite it
<wpwrak>
they're (still) tinkerers. they like their technical background stories.
<wpwrak>
i think it may be worth trying for an article, not just yet another ten lines press release
<DocScrutinizer>
send them a M1 and you bought an article usually, only if it comes with a manual/howto/CD_with_sw that lures sb in to tinker with it
<DocScrutinizer>
mention they could even print all the schematics and PCB on that article and you may get a 8 pages in main section, where they start a c't project on it
<wpwrak>
that may be a little too much :)
<DocScrutinizer>
why
<DocScrutinizer>
do you think *any* of the c't projects been developed by c't reporters or their lab?
<wpwrak>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
well, yes. You *become* c't reporter when they are interested in a project you developed ;-D
<wpwrak>
i think what we could aim for with M1 is an architecture article. the anatomy of a VJ station with an open SoC in an FPGA. that's plenty of delicious meat.
<wpwrak>
much like they dissect intels' next incremental improvement over some four pages every now and then. just that we have a much nicer offering
<DocScrutinizer>
general video processing general purpose unit, on which a VJ device got implemented
<wpwrak>
once they're hooked on the tech article, the (short) product presentation snippet happens on its own
<wpwrak>
also the online articles. after all, they then help to sell the print magazine. so you don't need to go and convince them that an online article or two is good for their business.
<DocScrutinizer>
just implement a little fancy and control those 300 air nozzles that blow out green shit from the broken glass running by the camera, and you got another completely different usecase, so they see it's not just a VJ station with an interesting tech background
<wpwrak>
yeah, the focus needs choosing. too much VJ may not fly. even though they regularly cover devices for musicians and other artists, also somewhat outlandish ones
<DocScrutinizer>
focus needs to be set on tech, not on usecase
<wpwrak>
broken glass ? you mean for the next 99% riots ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
"we just market it *for now* with an VJ example software"
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: I mean all those industry sorters, apple selectors, yellow bag plastic recycling processors whatnot
<wpwrak>
you need a bit of both. the GPU is very special, because it's for VJs. also, the CPU is too slow if you don't explain why you don't need to play the GHz race there
<DocScrutinizer>
same method used to sort different types of plastic (here with IR) from recycling ("gelber sack / duales system deutchland")
<DocScrutinizer>
always a setup like  videocam -> M1 -> "fast labsw" -> air nozzles
<wpwrak>
heh, but for this, they'd want to see a working example :)
<DocScrutinizer>
exactly not. It's enough to mention you got a PoC sw you are working on, so it's clear this isn't a mere consumer grade video effects processor
<DocScrutinizer>
a printout of the sourcecode that would implement a PoC for such a sorter was magnitudes more appealing to c't than a video of a working industrial sorter whee you see a M1 in the rack
<wpwrak>
c'mon. there's a big difference between a SoC and that kind of sorder
<wpwrak>
i don't see them print any sources :)
<DocScrutinizer>
no, but they may print the URL and drool over the openness of the concept
<wpwrak>
naw, if you build such a sorter, they may once mention it in an article about recycling. like they recently had one on agricultural IT. but that's pretty high-level.
<DocScrutinizer>
meh, I'm obviously not able to transport my idea
<wpwrak>
maybe you want to focus on the image processing angle
<wpwrak>
then the sorter would just be an application example
<wpwrak>
but you'd still have to build it
<wpwrak>
or present your algorithm at SIGGRAPH ;-)
<kyak>
jow_laptop: it's too tricky.. can't make it work- tried a lot of combinations
<jow_laptop>
kyak: yeah, I think it should just depend on libncursesw and done
<kyak>
jow_laptop: does it mean we should override moc just like we did with mc?..
<kyak>
i mean, override openwrt package with qi openwrt package
<jow_laptop>
kyak: no I'll fix it later
<jow_laptop>
kyak: I just have to get some shitty webfoo done for my employer first
<Ayla>
just like radio was supposed to disappear when TV appeared
<LunaVorax>
Thanks
<LunaVorax>
I have a Communication teach at college
<LunaVorax>
A very connected person she's aware of a lot of things
<LunaVorax>
And she convince us that books have no chances
<LunaVorax>
I'm finding this grotesque.. as paradoxal it can be ('cause i'm a computer science stud)
<Ayla>
so do I (and so do I)
<LunaVorax>
Maybe it'll be like always
<Ayla>
the current e-readers are far from being good enough for most people
<LunaVorax>
If that was only that
<LunaVorax>
Proprietary formats
<LunaVorax>
Price
<LunaVorax>
And worst of all
<LunaVorax>
Power
<Ayla>
and I like the smell of the paper :p
<LunaVorax>
Book that need power :(
<LunaVorax>
Ayla, are you contributing to qi ?
<Ayla>
in some ways, yes
<Ayla>
most of my work related to Qi has been on gmenu2x
<Ayla>
and a tiny bit on the Qi kernel
<LunaVorax>
Wow
<Ayla>
(I did the watchdog driver)
<LunaVorax>
Like what in the Qi kernel ?
<LunaVorax>
WOW
<LunaVorax>
You wrote a driver
<LunaVorax>
I always heard it was so complex to do
<Ayla>
not really, but it's time-hungry
<Ayla>
as the code has to be perfect if you want it to be included
<LunaVorax>
That's great, I don't concieve non-perfect code
<LunaVorax>
I'm a bit too perfectionnist
<LunaVorax>
(it slows me down sometimes)
<Ayla>
heheh, yes you do
<LunaVorax>
Not concieving it doesn't mean I don't make errors :P
<Ayla>
perfect code for you doesn't mean perfect for the linux kernel
<Ayla>
you have to take care about how many characters you have per line, for instance
<LunaVorax>
Oh I understand
<LunaVorax>
Weird
<LunaVorax>
I was thinking in an algorithmic way
<LunaVorax>
Hum
<LunaVorax>
I still am jealous od Apple's Siri
<LunaVorax>
of*
<wpwrak>
LunaVorax: books are almost certainly doomed. neutron decay and perhaps even proton decay would reduce them by about 25-50% in as short a time as 10^34 years
<LunaVorax>
That was a nice joke wpwrak hehe
<DocScrutinizer>
and you can't write notes on the pages of e-boks
<LunaVorax>
I wasn't expecting it :D
<wpwrak>
nobody expects the proton decay ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
I wonder what are the decay products of a neutron
<LunaVorax>
DocScrutinizer, the idea I wanted to tell that even if the next Kindle had all of theses features, it would bothers me because it's a computer and the break down rate of a computer still is way higher that the break down rate of a book as of today
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
so maybe newspapers are doomed, not so are books
<wpwrak>
but ... i think e-books more substitute paper books more and more. the main problem are currently still copyright and patents. give humanity a few centuries and these issues will have been overcome, too. the reading experience per se isn't too bad. it's a matter of getting used to it. again, this is something that solves itself within a few generations.
<LunaVorax>
And the battle against proprietary formats isn't over yet also
<LunaVorax>
A computer will hardly survive over time while we have copies of perfectly surviving books
<DocScrutinizer>
umm, yeah. Then what's the proton decay?
<wpwrak>
proton decay is a hypothetical decay of protons into .. checking ...
<DocScrutinizer>
LunaVorax: your reasoning is well known as librarian's problem
<LunaVorax>
really ?
<wpwrak>
.. pions, positrons, and such
<DocScrutinizer>
eeew
<DocScrutinizer>
my desk feels so hollow
<wpwrak>
newspapers are already dying. they just can't keep up. and much of their content is short-lived.
<LunaVorax>
DocScrutinizer, the librarian's problem is a classification problem. Are you sure about what you are saying ?
<wpwrak>
and computers as a group don't break down all that easily. consider "the matrix". don't you think there are thousands is not millions of copies on people's hard disks all over the planet ? books would be even easier. they take up very very little space. you could make a "book vault @ home" project that just spreads out book content
<LunaVorax>
Hum
<LunaVorax>
I think in fact
<LunaVorax>
The main problem is
<LunaVorax>
Hum no
<LunaVorax>
One of the main problem is
<wpwrak>
the problem with e-books are patents. if you don't want to pay e-inc or they don't want you to outpace them, you have to wait 20 years before you can make the next major step
<LunaVorax>
File format
<wpwrak>
so that's about 1-3 opportinities within an engineer's life.
<LunaVorax>
That's what I meant
<DocScrutinizer>
LunaVorax: not about the term, no. Esp not the english term
<wpwrak>
of course, things under DRM may be lost. but all the free content and all the "pirated" content will be what survives through history
<DocScrutinizer>
persistent storage of data in long term archives still mainly done on microfiche, and in some corner a microfiche reader. Will work in 3000 years
<LunaVorax>
I hope you are right wpwrak
<LunaVorax>
microfiche ?
<LunaVorax>
DocScrutinizer, that raise another problem, will the human kind survive that long without self-destruct ?
<wpwrak>
(microfiche) that's for cases where you have a small number of archival sites and need assurances of survival. if you just spread it over the internet, you only have statistical assurances. but that doesn't mean that it won't be safe.
<wpwrak>
i mean, when was the last time a light switch didn't work because all of the electrons decided against tunelling through the oxide ?
<DocScrutinizer>
hah, statistical safety. I see this every time I'm looking for any copy of that friggin pastebin somebody linked in a ML post
<wpwrak>
(light switch) of course, assuming the oxide wasn't so think that the switch was in fact broken
<wpwrak>
pastebins are rather volatile :)
<wpwrak>
but maybe you can write a spider that archives pastebins before they vanish :)
<DocScrutinizer>
(switch) 9 days ago, on my TV
<DocScrutinizer>
ooh light* switch
<DocScrutinizer>
dunno, I use relays here
<wpwrak>
:)
<LunaVorax>
hum
<LunaVorax>
I'm very worried, I'm never able to see technology as stable
<wpwrak>
(e-paper) e.g., you could make flexible double-sided e-paper that you simply turn around to flip pages. that way, you can make the update process very slow.
<wpwrak>
if you don't have DRM, you could also have the same document easily on multiple machines. so your e-paper reader could synchronize the position wirelessly with your other computers. if you want to search the document for something, you could then, say, go to your pc or pick up a table that would be too bulk just for reading
<LunaVorax>
Hum
<LunaVorax>
Anyone seen the movie H2G2 ?
<wpwrak>
technology is not really the limiting factor. it's the ability to invent without getting raped and access to content that's the problem. and perhaps also the lack of more flexible models for financing development.
<DocScrutinizer>
no, it's all about data formats and (lacking) stability of all digital storage media
<DocScrutinizer>
and of course the finite lifespan of engines even in stow-away mode
<wpwrak>
formats = access to content. once you have it in open format, a book is pretty easy to handle
<DocScrutinizer>
so basically the separation of data and readout
<wpwrak>
you can solve archival through peer-to-peer. share the books. encourage people not to delete them. books are SMALL. you have to delete maybe ten books to make room for even 1% of another porn movie. it's simply not worth your time. so keep them :)
<DocScrutinizer>
the more complex your readout machine gets, the more headache it gives you when you need to refresh or transcode data in 10, 20, 50 years
<wpwrak>
of course, in the present time, you have the problem of legality and DRM
<wpwrak>
books are still pretty basic, at least outside of japan
<wpwrak>
converting, you may lose things like the typeface and such. but the content will still be very usable.
<wpwrak>
"enhanced" multimedia content will be harder, though. e.g., if your e-book contains a silverlight animation, then you may have e problem in a few years
<wpwrak>
or if it relies on external content
<wpwrak>
there is a tendency to add non-essential elements to communications (which includes books). thinks like html mails, e-books with an audio track (where the book is being read, so you can enjoy it while in the traffic jam), japanese animated e-books, etc.
<LunaVorax>
Does the nanonote have an epub reader ?
<wpwrak>
(HHGTTG) haven't seen it yet. i heard that it wasn't too great, and didn't want to spoil the impression from the books. maybe in a few years, when the memory has faded almost completely :)
<LunaVorax>
wpwrak, I'm still waitin for the QiPad in the next coming years ;)
<LunaVorax>
wpwrak, I wasn't goint to say the movie is good
<LunaVorax>
But we can see the Hitchhikkers guide
<LunaVorax>
It's a beautiful metal book with a big screen divided in two pages
<LunaVorax>
I wish this device existed :P
<wpwrak>
(qipad) hmm, first i'd like to see a proper nanonote. we now know pretty well what should be different, without changing the product category too much.
<wpwrak>
(guide) aah ! :)
<wpwrak>
actually, i'd rather have some VR glasses or contact lenses :)
<wpwrak>
why hold a book if all you want is just see it ?
<LunaVorax>
Keeping a bit of contact with the real world ?
<wpwrak>
oh, VR glasses exist. i'm not quite sure what's keeping them from working better.
<wpwrak>
contact lenses would need a bit more work, agreed. maybe a first job for the qi nanotech labs ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
haha
<DocScrutinizer>
the problem is to keep the virtual object created by hologram static while eyes move to scan it
<DocScrutinizer>
esp static in relation to what?
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure you need a real hologram. more like a slice of it.
<wpwrak>
static wrt your environment ?
<DocScrutinizer>
to your head (like VR goggles)? to the room you're in? to inertia?
<wpwrak>
so you wuoldn't track the eyes but head movements
<wpwrak>
yes, i'd try the room
<wpwrak>
you can probably have "unnatural" settings that work, too. of course, they'd need some adaptation, with nausea and so on.
<DocScrutinizer>
could be done optically then. Probably also best solution
<DocScrutinizer>
you need actually a hologram. You could even build such a static hologram contact lens without any special effort nowadays
<DocScrutinizer>
you even need a whitelight hologram, means a 3D aka volume hologram media
<DocScrutinizer>
well, thickness of a dozen wavelengths of red is completely sufficient
<wpwrak>
btw, a plausible explanation for why we react to distortions in our reference system with nausea is that such distortions normally can't happen, so if you experience them, you may be poisoned (in human evolution, not an uncommon event. supermarket food with strictly controlled ingredients, preservatives, and an expiration date, hasn't been around for all that long), and if you're poisoned, it's usually a good idea to vomit - hence the
<wpwrak>
nausea
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah, heard that explanation
<DocScrutinizer>
seasick is prolly all the same
<DocScrutinizer>
aah yeah distortion of ref sys - pretty comprehensive
<DocScrutinizer>
read a book in car, seasick, zero gravity, vertigo...
<DocScrutinizer>
o/
<wpwrak>
yeah. in the stone age, the world didn't move around that much. well, except during an earthquake. perhaps their evolutionary response went into claustrophobia
<wpwrak>
not only can you get stuck and starve, or the cave could just collapse, but an earthquake may also trap you
<wpwrak>
but i don't think earthquakes, nasty as they are, had much of an impact on human evolution
<DocScrutinizer>
those with claustrophobia were eaten by sabretooth tigers, outside the cave ;-P
<wpwrak>
yeah, so there's the balancing force :)
<wpwrak>
and the really clever ones domesticated the sabretooth tigers. hence the house cat ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
also those too happy all the time and dancing outside instead of staing "at home"
<DocScrutinizer>
heads out hunting a bison between two roll halves
<wpwrak>
that's why the morlocks eat better than the eloy :)
<wpwrak>
hmm yes, should do a bit of shopping, too