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<fling>
What do you mean? -> 05:13 <+DocScrutinizer05> almost 15% in basically 24h, not half bad already
<fling>
Also what is it? -> Top-Up:1761
<DocScrutinizer05>
15% of answers to our mails, basically. Top-Ups are 1.-€ virtual products customers buy to increase their down payment beyond the minimum. E.g. when they want to pay the complete estimated sales price already, or when they simply want to support Neo900 project to allow for better sourcing that's not limited by the amount of down payment
<fling>
ok.
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<freemangordon>
hmm, it is either that I am blind or the webshop is not accessible from the home page on neo900.org
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<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: yes, it's still not completely "online"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it's also not fit yet for the casual visitor. Needs a few more decent links at the right places
<DocScrutinizer05>
for somebody not knowing history and details and current state of the project, I guess it's rather puzzling still
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<pabs3>
dos1: I just noticed the sync from the Neo900 µBlog to Twitter is broken
<pabs3>
DocScrutinizer05: ^
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<DocScrutinizer05>
pabs3: thanks!
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<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900:51 NeoN:19 Top-Up:2061
<DocScrutinizer05>
51 orders completed (just by incident same number as Neo900), 12 awaiting bank wire payment.
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<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: (sorry for maybe the stupid question) what is top-up? is it when you pay the difference between donation and NeoX price so far?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 DOWN PAYMENT: 480.- You wanna pay 500 since you just have in yer hands. You buy 20 top-ups
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a virtual product meaning nothing but "shut up and take my money" basically ;-)
<freemangordon>
hmm, got it. So, do you need more of those? I can spend some money on that
<DocScrutinizer05>
we welcome top ups since they allow us to source earlier
<freemangordon>
sure, but are you in need *right now*?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<freemangordon>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're in need of customers who register - we hope they'll do down payment during next 4 weeks
<DocScrutinizer05>
I need to "gamble" on expectations if the whole thing pans out or not
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, i'm sure it pans out, but would be unfortunate when that takes 6 months until we reach a decent number of preorders
<freemangordon>
well, now there is a webshop, you can run the PR machine
<DocScrutinizer05>
when the rate of 2 devices / hour continues, we soon have reached our target of 500
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we need your help on that :-)
<freemangordon>
throwing some light on the progress of the next proto will help too
<freemangordon>
me? come on man, I am an engineer :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you, the community
<freemangordon>
oh, yeah
<bencoh>
2 devices / hour ?
<freemangordon>
but really, the "progress question" was asked a couple of times already, you really should answer it. somehow
<freemangordon>
;)
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<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer05: I figured the additional down payment also meant: you have to pay less for the final product
<Wizzup>
because that's what down payment implies, no? ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Wizzup: of course
<DocScrutinizer05>
all your payments are basically just loans so far
<x29a>
all your payments are belong to us
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<DocScrutinizer05>
plus you purchase a serial number of a NeoN board, and (on Neo900) one N900 I'm going to source for you
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: sure, we need the mech parts
<Wizzup>
freemangordon: to turn a neon into a neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<freemangordon>
oh, sorry, misread it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think 130 is no bad deal for a complete N900 plus upgrade work
<DocScrutinizer05>
(though my mind jury is still out on what to do with the N900 mainboards)
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: a side question - what you;re going to do with the Nokia logo?
<freemangordon>
sell it
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<freemangordon>
*them
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: since we officially upgrade genuine N900, we have little problems with logo stuff. We will nevertheless apply stickers to cover them
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: is the memory the limiting item in the number of Neo900's you guys can produce?
<DocScrutinizer05>
memory and particularly the N900 mech parts
<freemangordon>
hmm, I should add a note that I don;t want sticker :). It is no fun cleaning up glue remnants
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is the reason we *had* to start the down payment / shop now
<ds2>
so in theory you have no limit on replacement MB's w/o any memory, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: no problem, add that not to final order
<DocScrutinizer05>
notE*
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
and right now I could source a few more k of RAM chips
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we can source 512MB in arbitrary unlimited qty
<DocScrutinizer05>
just the 1GB is a tad... tricky ;-)
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: any plans for a Neo900/lite?
<DocScrutinizer05>
not yet
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: what do you have in mind?
<DocScrutinizer05>
512MB RAM?
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: 1G of memory is that important to me
<ds2>
whatever is sourceable :D
<ds2>
at the right price, I can have memory/processor put in myself
<ds2>
:D
<DocScrutinizer05>
for *now* I could build probably 2k or 3k of motherboards with 1GB RAM, if somebody places preorders right now
<DocScrutinizer05>
(put in myself) no you can't, since many components won't survive a second reflow
<ds2>
I understand your constraints
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: I work with folks who can swap out the PoP assembly
<ds2>
so it won't be a full reflow
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's insane but your pleasure ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
takes 30 min per board
<ds2>
verified that with the Beagle (aborted project....)
<ds2>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway the 1GB RAM is probably same price as 512MB right now
<ds2>
that assumes one has the $$$ to do the downpayment now
<ds2>
need to appease the tax man first
<DocScrutinizer05>
modulo the 12 months of hunting that come on top of product price invariably of what we gonna solder to MB
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: we're not tough with payment goals. Please do your preorder now and pay when you can
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: doesn't that defeat the point of what you need to do? i.e. have capital to secure the parts
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it's more than 4 or 6 weeks, or multiple boards, please leave a note what's going on
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: yes, in theory. In reality we have top-up payments and we don't source all the components right away
<ds2>
I'll see what I can do. lots of stuff needs to be pay in the next 60 days :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
for now we need *customers*
<DocScrutinizer05>
not necessarily payments
<Wizzup>
at some point you could consider posting it to large news sites, but then make sure to fully make clear the goal (and focus) of the neo900 project, otherwise people will just flood with 'it is too expensive' comments
<DocScrutinizer05>
I need reliable numbers *how much* to source
<ds2>
my needs are more of ways to extend the life the N900 as is... extra features is just gravy
<Wizzup>
ds2: I have about 6 N900's here, so I'll last for awhile :)
<ds2>
hence even memory of the same size is fine
<ds2>
Wizzup:all 6 with working SIM and touch screen?
<Wizzup>
yes
<Wizzup>
one with a usb port that is loose
<ds2>
lucky :P
<Wizzup>
no, just sourcing them over the years
<Wizzup>
I'm getting a n800, n810 and n900 from someone tomorrow, to mess around with :-)
<Wizzup>
have never had one of the earlier versions ... anyway sorry for OT
<ds2>
the day that I have to drop the N900 from daily use is rapidly approaching :(
<Wizzup>
why?
<Wizzup>
I've restored touchscreens a few times
<DocScrutinizer05>
to put it plain: I'm gonna source N900 next
<Wizzup>
or, digitizers
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I dunno if I ever again can get those
<ds2>
they just wear out
<DocScrutinizer05>
I have an option for 500 N900 right now, possibly extensible to 1000
<Wizzup>
wow, really?
<Wizzup>
are those used or new?
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<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05:guarantee noncounterfeit?
<DocScrutinizer05>
refurbished almost like new. perfect new digitizer
<Wizzup>
cool
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: yes
<Wizzup>
well done
<ds2>
Nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
~500*100
<infobot>
50000
<ds2>
things are at the point where a Galaxy Nexus is slowly being groomed to replace the N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
50k€
<DocScrutinizer05>
wholesale
<DocScrutinizer05>
incl tax customs shipping loss whatnot
<DocScrutinizer05>
+-20% maybe
<DocScrutinizer05>
when in 4 or 6 weeks preorders for Neo900 are significantly lower than 500 and rate dwindling, I'll order even less than 500 N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless funds and projections allow for over-sourcing
<DocScrutinizer05>
when a 2000 late customers chime in for Neo900 whole device in 6 months, I can accept orders only "subject to availability" and see *IF* I can get more N900 at that point in time, which is absolutely not waranted
<DocScrutinizer05>
and anyway sourcing those critters takes a 3 months minimum
<ds2>
DIY refurbing :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
so don't hope for ordering a Neo900 as late / new customer when final orders start, and to receive your device a 6 weeks later, like those early donors will
<DocScrutinizer05>
odds are you won't be able to get any, or at very least it will take 4 or 5 months longer
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: 500 n900 ? do they come from the same place ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise such purchase couldn't get done at all
<Wizzup>
stupid question, but did you consider some indiegogo campaign, where people can just donate (Without actually getting a device, because that is perhaps expensive for some)
<Wizzup>
but they could have their name listed somewhere, etc.
<Wizzup>
Guess it doesn't make that much sense...
<DocScrutinizer05>
we considered all this a long time ago (when project started) and back when there were very sound reasons not to do that
<DocScrutinizer05>
might have changed, dunno
<Wizzup>
it could be something like: if you 'pledge' 50-100 euro, you may get priority for $next batch, also indiegogo has campaigns without specific goals (so you always get money)
<Wizzup>
anyway, like I said, probably not a great idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, please consifer and evaluate it
<DocScrutinizer05>
consider*
<DocScrutinizer05>
just I'm drowning in silly stuff like syncing bank wire payments to shop order status right now
<Wizzup>
yes, I get that completely
<DocScrutinizer05>
updating front pge, writing a decent status and perspective report, whatnot. I had not even time for decent engineering tasks during 4 months now
<Wizzup>
let's hope that's almost over :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
almost no time. We did a few very nice whitepapers nevertheless
<DocScrutinizer05>
the NFC whitepaper is master thesis level
<DocScrutinizer05>
the IR whitepaper is also not half bad in my book, and backed with simulations and real prototype tests on test breadboard circuits
<DocScrutinizer05>
you honestly should give our very fine http://neo900.org/resources a shot. Massively underrated page
<DocScrutinizer05>
ugh, forgot: Hackerbus
<DocScrutinizer05>
one of our suppliers was all happy with interactive block diagram, cmpletely sufficient for him to start searching components for us. All he needs: QUANTITY??????
<DocScrutinizer05>
for now I hardly can answer this question. That's why we need the shop (and to collect funds for sourcing N900 et al of course)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that's why we need *customers* to register to the shop and put their order now, so I get decent reliable numbers for QUANTITY
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you ordanize a wedding lunch in a restaurant, you better know how many meals you order
<DocScrutinizer05>
organize*
<DocScrutinizer05>
same here
<Wizzup>
yep....
<Wizzup>
any reason to assume that the current n900 seller will be selling more n900s to other people?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, for sure not
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is at-location purchase in Shenzen by a proxy
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<DocScrutinizer05>
to other people? sure. Per internet order? no way
<DocScrutinizer05>
so if you live near shenzen, sure. Go ahead get some
<DocScrutinizer05>
do proper checks for genuine non fake non broken goods at location before paying
<DocScrutinizer05>
I even get warranty
<DocScrutinizer05>
since my proxy can talk to seller face to face when they sell us crap
<Wizzup>
DocScrutinizer05: I din't want to buy any
<Wizzup>
I was just wondering how likely it is that other people will buy say 500 (which means it may be better to get 1000 now, instead of 500 now and 500 later)
<Wizzup>
but I think the odds of other people wanting them it very low
<Wizzup>
is*
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry I can't tell anything but speculations based on nothing (aka right from my rear)
<Wizzup>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know that even now it's probably not possible to get 2k
<DocScrutinizer05>
I have a GO for 500
<Wizzup>
good :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a small perspective to go to 1000 maybe
<DocScrutinizer05>
*right now*
<DocScrutinizer05>
my proxy is so awesome he sends them on invoice
<DocScrutinizer05>
but I do NOT want to order goods I can't pay at him
<DocScrutinizer05>
so even when I order now, i need the money in 8 weeks or so
<bencoh>
20:28 <+DocScrutinizer05> I even get warranty
<bencoh>
20:29 <+DocScrutinizer05> since my proxy can talk to seller face to face when they sell us crap
<bencoh>
hm ... what kind of "warranty" ?
<bencoh>
I mean ... what if some devices are broken/fake/whatever ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
then worst case I send them back to China and my proxy swaps them for good ones
<bencoh>
sounds like a trustworthy proxy
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<norly>
DocScrutinizer05: are there any estimations on battery life?
<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, he's sending me 500 N900 on my word to pay them
<DocScrutinizer05>
norly: like N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
means: "7+days standby"
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: oh, hm... sounds fair then :D
<norly>
oh... even though the modem is connected through usb?
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course only under optimal conditions, not when running around in countryside whole day doing data all the time
<norly>
well i remember mine getting 4-5 days while idling in the same spot, with good reception
<Wizzup>
I def. manages to get more than 5 days :)
<Wizzup>
managed*
<norly>
and ~12h with a little music and emails to get me through the day...
<DocScrutinizer05>
norly: mine gets 7+ days under same conditions, with NO IRC and only a ssh session over WLAN
<norly>
well, if it isn't worse than n900, that's acceptable
<norly>
oh, with a wlan connection running? nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
it by all that matters should be on par with N900
<norly>
how about the usb from the CPU to the modem?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, WLAN is waaay more power saving for the inevitable occasional data
<norly>
i remember there was a UART as well? how much power is the modem going to drain?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think you imply incorrect relations
<norly>
i think someone mentioned a while back that the gemalto chips can be interfaced via a USB port, and a RS232 port
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we will use both options
<norly>
as my experience tells me that an active usb connection can drain a lot of power, how are you dealing with that issue?
<DocScrutinizer05>
see above
<norly>
are you using the UART for management or something?
<DocScrutinizer05>
depending on how good USB gets with suspend mode (and redume) we will use UART for alternative
<DocScrutinizer05>
and ramp up USB only when high bandwidth needed
<norly>
ah very good
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
glad you like it :-))
<norly>
have you tried measuring the modem power consumption while e.g. having a phone conversation?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's pretty useless effort since it's *massively* depending on circumstances. The TX level gets controlled by base station
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the TRM of modem there are maximum power consumption values
<DocScrutinizer05>
for certain clearly defined situations
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's like 3 A4 pages of tables
<DocScrutinizer05>
generally the P*S8 seem to be a tad better than the N900 BB5 modem chipset, unless you use USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course no reference for LTE mode
<DocScrutinizer05>
but LTE *should* be on par or even better than UMTS with data
<DocScrutinizer05>
no surprise since it's faster
<DocScrutinizer05>
so TX works for shorter periods of time
<norly>
nice
<norly>
oh, so do you plan to route analog audio directly to the P*S8 for voice calls?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
only I2S/PCM
<norly>
oh ok, just as good
<norly>
so no USB involved in voice calls
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope
<DocScrutinizer05>
only for control (unless UART)
<norly>
sounds like it's a good device for voice/sms usage
<DocScrutinizer05>
hope so - that's one of the main purposes ;-)
<norly>
when it comes to data, i guess the USB connection is a fair price to pay
<norly>
as long as data use is only occasional
<norly>
fair enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas the P*S8 only have USB for high bandwidth interface :-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
UART maxes ut at iirc 1Mbaud
<DocScrutinizer05>
at*
<DocScrutinizer05>
err maxes out at*
<DocScrutinizer05>
USB: 480
<DocScrutinizer05>
I would LOVE they had high speed UART or HSI or whatever, but...
<norly>
mhm, that's actually not half bad for permanent connections, though i believe i remember the UART can be used for *either* control or for data, so if we use it for a permanent internet connection, we'd have to fall back to occasional USB usage to control the modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, you can switch each virtual channel to either phy IF
<norly>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
which would be quite tricky when we tell modem to switch all channels to UART and we had no connection there to switch it back ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hope Pyra doesn't fall for that
<norly>
what are you referring to by "virtual channel" and "phy if" in this case?
<norly>
(to clear things up, everything i know is from a few IRC logs i picked up here and there)
<norly>
okay, but on USB it can simply have multiple endpoints. is it possible to multiplex multiple virtual channels over the UART?
<norly>
that would seem odd to me, but who knows, maybe gemalto came up with their own protocol for that ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, there's a AT multiplex protocol I forgot the name
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's 3GPP standard
<norly>
oh that's just awesome. 1 mbit should be plenty then and when we really need high speeds we could even manually switch to USB, knowing the battery may drain faster!
<norly>
i mean, what we really do with a phone is to communicate (at least that's what i plan to do), and the UART should be plenty for IM and emails
<norly>
great, thanks for the answer!
<DocScrutinizer05>
yw :-))
<norly>
wow, so much hacking opportunities and so little time
<norly>
at least it's time to make a down payment
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<norly>
you mentioned you could not only ship the full n900 including its original mobo, but also sell me a second n900 mobo?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we put quite some time into design and evaluation of the critter. Now we think we're almost done
<DocScrutinizer05>
we will have "truckloads" of N900 mobo
<DocScrutinizer05>
from all the Neo900 customers
<DocScrutinizer05>
they *should* all 'just work'
<norly>
oh my. i'd be interested in one or two, in addition to the one that i'd ask to stay in my refurbished n900 ;)
<norly>
depending on the conditions
<DocScrutinizer05>
though I don't bother much about that. I even tried to get brokem MoBo N900 for less, but nobody sells _such_ stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
they want to earn a buck from refurbishing them
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<DocScrutinizer05>
still good enough an offer, compared to total of all costs for sourcing the parts one by one, even when that was possible which it probably isn't
<DocScrutinizer05>
some parts are hard to get meanwhile
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we bite the bullet and get complete refurbished N900 and we end with a maybe 500 'useless' N900 MoBo
<norly>
fair enough
<norly>
what are you planning to do with them?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I still don't know exactly how to handle that "junk" - maybe each customer gets his MoBo. Or I try to sell them to make the device a 10 bucks cheaper for everybody. Dunno
<norly>
okay
<norly>
then i'll just mention in my order that i'm interested in left-over mobos
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, please do
<norly>
so you can contact me in case there are any left over
<norly>
thanks
<DocScrutinizer05>
yw :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: you happen to know what's the exact name of Mickey's AT muxer, or of the protocil (basically same thng)?
<dos1>
which one? there were more than one ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
that 4chan AT mux
<dos1>
fso-abyss was a newest standalone implementation IIRC
<dos1>
however, fsogsmd has it integrated via libgsm0710, which fso-abyss used as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
gsm0710 hmmm might be correct
<dos1>
older implementation was called libgsm0710muxd IIRC
<DocScrutinizer05>
gsm0710muxd yes that was the one
<dos1>
gsm0710muxd was used in fso 1.0 era (and pre-fso) and then obsoleted
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, the protocol was in the name. That's what I asked for :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-05-19 Tue 22:22:43] <norly> okay, but on USB it can simply have multiple endpoints. is it possible to multiplex multiple virtual channels over the UART?
<dos1>
yes, AFAIK there was a 0710 mux mode on PHS8
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
sidenote: [2015-05-19 Tue 22:17:53] <DocScrutinizer05> EvilDragon: do you have a concept to handle "all modem channels switched to UART persistently"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I really hope they don't implement a deadlock pitfall into Pyra
<DocScrutinizer05>
at very least they want testpoints for UART to "fix" deadlocked modems in a fixture