<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway so far I thought (and hoped) that Siemens SEVAG (Siemens Eingabe Verarbeitung Ausgabe Generator) was the worst most clumsy awkward screen (mask) editor software I'd even had to touch in my whole life. Now that's prestashop ;-)
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<jonwil>
hi
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<jonwil>
hi pali :)
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<Pali>
jonwil: hi :-)
* jonwil
wonders if anyone has made progress on the FPTF work...
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<jonwil>
Seems like the motivation surrounding Neo900 has died down a lot
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<freemangordon>
jonwil: hi!
<freemangordon>
jonwil: actually, recently I was working on the location stuff :)
<freemangordon>
still didn't make great progress, but your work done on the matter is wonderful
<jonwil>
nice
<jonwil>
The audio stack work seems to have stalled though...
<freemangordon>
jonwil: yes :( . -voice module is not a single man task
<freemangordon>
so I will continue when and if someone ele wants to help
<freemangordon>
*else
<jonwil>
I have neither the time nor the guru level skills one needs to do that work
<freemangordon>
yeah, I know
<freemangordon>
jonwil: what about the location stuff?
<jonwil>
but yes creating a replacement liblocation that talks to the new cellular modem GPS chip set is a very good thing
<jonwil>
since location services is #3 in terms of importance when it comes to missing pieces behind the audio stack and the cellular services daemon stuff
* jonwil
wonders why no-one has shown any interest in the cellular stack work...
<jonwil>
If I had any spare time, I would pick up my stuff and fiddle with the cellular stack a bit more
<jonwil>
Reverse engineering probably a good 2/3rds of the cellular services daemon dbus calls is probably not that hard, its actually writing something to talk to the new modem that's hard I suspect
<jonwil>
That and figuring out the other 1/3rd of the cellular services daemon stuff :P
<freemangordon>
:)
<jonwil>
Looks like hell just froze over.
<jonwil>
We actually got N900 speakers(!)
<jonwil>
which means Neo900 speaker audio system can therefore be identical circuitry to the N900 with the same TLV320AIC34, same speakers and same circuitry to connect both of them up
<jonwil>
and by "we" I mean "Neo900 hardware guys"
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<Pali>
any idea how to automatically erase transfered data counter on maemo every day at 00:00?
<DocScrutinizer05>
gconftool
<DocScrutinizer05>
and alarmed
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<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: hell even turned into the coldest place you can think of: we can source complete N900
<jonwil>
Holy crap, NOS N900s? (at least I assume these are NOS and not some random horde of used phones)
<DocScrutinizer05>
NOS?
<DocScrutinizer05>
they are refurbished
<jonwil>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
but seemingly with new digitizer
<jonwil>
So which parts are now the parts most likely to cause problems for Neo900?
<jonwil>
domesheet?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
though that's manageable
<jonwil>
Ok so are there any parts left now that are truly unobtainable?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<jonwil>
great
<jonwil>
And with the correct speakers we can now make the audio playback system (speakers, earpiece, headphone and related circuitry) identical to N900 I guess
<jonwil>
which means good things in terms of audio work
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<jonwil>
microphone is different because IIRC we wanted a better one
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<jonwil>
Bluetooth is also different but given that bluetooth is all digital through to the actual bluetooth device, there shouldn't be anything in the closed pulse blobs that is specific to the N900 bluetooth chip
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's no big thing though
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no, audio isn't BT specific
<DocScrutinizer05>
the new memory/storage has been tested and should even boot to linux (no surprise)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the WLAN is identical (more or less) to N9's
<jonwil>
Presumably we have whatever firmware blobs and bits are required for the WLAN to work?
<jonwil>
Or are we going to be pinching those from N9?
<DocScrutinizer05>
either of both will be true in the end. I guess we should get drivers with the module too, but that's still unclear
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically it's a standard wl1253 driver needed, and we for sure get firmware blobs
<jonwil>
Anyhow if wlan is same as N9, all the special stuff can be handled in kernel driver (which is FOSS) and in wlancond (which is also FOSS) meaning we dont need to touch closed blobs like eapd or libicd-network-wlan
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<jonwil>
We also need to worry about whatever the N9 version of wl1221-cal is
<jonwil>
wl1251-cal
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm yes
<jonwil>
I am guessing that, like the N900 WiFi chip, the module we are using doesn't come with a MAC address burned in
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd prolly ruthlessly patch out such fancy nonsense and simply allow users to *choose* whether they want to run US/J/EU bands on WLAN
<jonwil>
Or is it different to N900 in that respect?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a wl1253 in a module
<jonwil>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
(speakers) since we can source complete N900, the speakers I sourxced are right now meant for spare parts ;-)
<jonwil>
nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd really like to source some more digitizers, but that's not really easy
<jonwil>
anyhow, wl1251-cal grabs the mac address from cal and feeds it to the chip, it determines the regulatory domain and feeds it to the chip, reads the NVS data modifies it depending on the regulatory domain and then feeds that to the chip
<jonwil>
By digitizer do you mean the entire screen assembly?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, only the touch
<DocScrutinizer05>
but I'd love to get whole screen assemblies, but that's never been an obtainable item
<jonwil>
My N900 has some minor screen damage (doesn't make the phone unusable, just ever so slightly slightly annoying) so I am hoping that somehow I can find a way to get it fixed but I am less hopeful after what you just said
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you can find a digitizer or two now and then, and you also can get LCDs
<jonwil>
I guess I just need to find a repairer who actually does proper repairs rather than just the kiosks who do screen replacements for iPhone and Galaxy as a way to supplant their business selling cases for iPhone and Galaxy phones.
<jonwil>
And then hope that said repair shop can find the right bits to do a screen replacement
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's for sure possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
proper nokia care centers (certified repair shops) prolly stoll can get *original* spare parts
<DocScrutinizer05>
still*
<jonwil>
The trick is finding an official shop that even knows what an N900 is and can do more than say "we dont support that anymore, buy a Microsoft Lumia running Windows please"
<jonwil>
or they will think I am talking about Lumia 900
<DocScrutinizer05>
the magic word is "Nokia care center" or "nokia care point"
<DocScrutinizer05>
and to those yu can refer to the device as N900 Rover RX-51 and they'll know
<DocScrutinizer05>
google is your friend
<DocScrutinizer05>
also M$ actually - no joke
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<jonwil>
So the digitizer is on top of the LCD on a N900?
<jonwil>
What has surprised me is just how strong the N900 is
<jonwil>
I have dropped it on the floor a few times which was enough to knock the battery loose but the phone kept working with no damage
<jonwil>
Its much stronger than an iPhone
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
a tank :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
just don't press the kbd too hard, or cmt chip solder joints pop open
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 won't suffer from same problem
<jonwil>
yeah seems like that CMT problem and the USB port issue are the only real flaws with the hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<jonwil>
I suspect it will be the cmt failure that ultimately kills my current N900 given that I am occasionally experiencing random "no sim
<jonwil>
"no sim" failures
<jonwil>
i.e. the "no sim" icon in the status bar
<jonwil>
It happens rarely but it does happen
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, sounds nasty
<jonwil>
The act of pulling off the back and removing/reinserting the SIM seems to fix it (probably flexes the device just enough to make it work again)
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it's not dirt or oxides on the SIM contacts or the SIM itself going south (may also happen, i heard) then it's likely cmt chip solder joints
<DocScrutinizer05>
thoughly wipe clean the contacts with unvarnished paper (like newspaper without paint/printing)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even carton
<DocScrutinizer05>
busoness cards often are exactly right for that purpose
<DocScrutinizer05>
on the spring lever contacts in sim tray you want to be particularly careful not to bend them while cleaning
<jonwil>
Anyhow, I will investigate what I can find re screen replacement and see if I can find somewhere that can do it at a price I can afford and in a reasonable time frame (i.e. not "we might be able to look at your device sometime next week and maybe we will have it back to you in 2 weeks" like some shops I wont name)
<DocScrutinizer05>
2 weels is a good time
<DocScrutinizer05>
weeks*
<jonwil>
well it depends
<jonwil>
if its 2 weeks because they need to order the parts in, that's fine since I can keep using my phone in the mean time
<DocScrutinizer05>
my first (and only) issue with N900 (broken flex) took 6 weeks to fix
<DocScrutinizer05>
but ok, those were silly, they sent it in to Nokia headquarters
<DocScrutinizer05>
in *Finland* :-o
<DocScrutinizer05>
a broken switch they might have fixed locally in one day, but the broken flex they felt like not touching
<jonwil>
My first N900 had a failure within warranty for what I believe was also busted flex (multicolor status LED didn't light up and front facing camera didn't work) and it took about a week from dropping it at Nokia Care to getting the device back (I am 99% sure that it was a replacement rather than a repair)
<jonwil>
That second N900 was then replaced under the original warranty for the dreaded USB port fault
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<jonwil>
For that they just gave me a new one right away (probably they had that failure on a list of faults where they dont bother fixing and just hand out a new device meaning they didn't really even need to look at it too much before giving me a new phone
<jonwil>
That third phone has worked quite well ever since other than replacing the battery with a new one because the old one wasn't holding a charge as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
now sitting on my desk as local lab remote
<jonwil>
Oh and I did also have to replace the inner plastic part of the front bezel because some of the plastic hooks/tabs broke
<DocScrutinizer05>
eeew
<jonwil>
If I hadn't moved cities in the mean time I would go back to the place that did the bezel replacement and get them to look at the screen
<jonwil>
since they did such a good job
<DocScrutinizer05>
give then a call, they will be pleased
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<jonwil>
this was a long time ago
<jonwil>
and I do remember thanking them for doing so
<jonwil>
Apparently it took them some effort to get the parts in question
<jonwil>
or something
<jonwil>
N900 front bezel parts dont grow on trees ya know :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
nasty parts
<jonwil>
Hopefully by the time my N900 does dies for good, I can get my hands on something worthwhile to replace it like another N900 or a Neo900
<jonwil>
And wont have to buy some junk like a Galaxy
<jonwil>
Although at least a Galaxy is better than an iPhone (the one smartphone on the planet where you need to pay money to run code you wrote on the device you own)
<jonwil>
Yes you can jailbreak but not on all phones or all software versions and its risky and means you cant usually upgrade the device
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
nokia tried a "me-too approach" with N9-meego
<DocScrutinizer05>
only difference: they provided an official "jailbreak" after long time, and that one was flawed
<DocScrutinizer05>
and impact of jailbreak on usability was massively worse than on iPhone
<DocScrutinizer05>
since their "security" was better, so it broke harder when disabling it
<DocScrutinizer05>
aiui iPhone isn't even any sort of HS device
<DocScrutinizer05>
or when it is, it only secures boot
<jonwil>
Best thing about Neo900 is that users will control the security
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically one of the top 3 selling points
<DocScrutinizer05>
the device is 100% secure since we gave all security into *your* hands
<DocScrutinizer05>
*and* we provide very unique additional security tools on hw level
<jonwil>
Best part of Neo900 is that even NSA cant hack the device via cellular radio to e.g. remotely enable cameras or microphones
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<jonwil>
or to e.g. get cellular radio to give up phone location
<jonwil>
since GPS antenna will be disabled in hardware and can be made to only enable when you want to use GPS
<jonwil>
i.e. same time as when N900 would enable GPS, Neo900 would do that and turn on GPS antenna at the same time
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, every transmitter exposes own location, that's elementary physics. But otherwise yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wiki u-tdoa
<infobot>
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-TDOA (URL), Wikipedia explains: "'U-TDOA', or 'Uplink-Time Difference of Arrival', is a wireless location technology that relies on sensitive receivers typically located at the cell towers to determine the location of a mobile phone. U-TDOA determines location based on the time it takes a signal to travel from a mobile phone to each of the sensitive receivers called Location Measurement Units (LMUs). By using the ...
<jonwil>
Even better will be that airplane mode will actually gaurantee all the radios are off at the hardware level
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's for sure, and unique to Neo900
<jonwil>
I also like that Neo900 will be one of the most open smartphones ever made (and certainly the only thing that's anywhere near open that has LTE support)
<DocScrutinizer05>
"one of" sure. But not all sure it's the oly LTE open design
<jonwil>
I dont know of any others
<jonwil>
at least not open to the same extent as Neo900
* DocScrutinizer05
neither, but that doesn't mean a thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
we use a closed blackbox LTE modem linked to system via USB. I guess others did same
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically every LTE USB dongle is as open as we are
<DocScrutinizer05>
...from a linux system POV
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<jonwil>
Seems like the only binary blob we cant replace and that is essential for using the phone will be the GPU drivers
<specing>
always
<jonwil>
Seems odd that PowerVR is the only GPU out there that doesn't have any real effort towards FOSS drivers, people are doing FOSS drivers for ARM Mali, Qualcomm, Adreno, NVIDIA (desktop, Tegra and otherwise), Broadcomm VideoCore, ATI and others)
<jonwil>
Then again, I guess its a combination of the difficulty factor and the fact that most people with the skills/interest to work on mobile GPUs have previously been exposed to PowerVR IP at some point.
<jonwil>
Also the drivers for PowerVR are actually not bad
<jonwil>
i.e. there is no argument for "these drivers suck, we need new ones" like with so much other hardware
<specing>
do you absolutely have to use a SoC with PowerVR inside?
<jonwil>
For Neo900 we do
<jonwil>
since we need to be backwards compatible with N900
<specing>
you could use one of those low power AMD APUs and have standard radeon
<jonwil>
and the only option is OMAP3
<specing>
why do you need to be backwards compatible?
<jonwil>
because we want to be able to run all the N900 software
<specing>
those the N900 software depend on x86 features?
<specing>
err omap features
<jonwil>
Yes
<specing>
in what way?
<jonwil>
AMD is out of the question anyway since the AMD APUs are x86
<jonwil>
and we need ARM
<jonwil>
The whole point of the Neo900 is to be like the N900 (and capable of running all N900 software including closed source stuff) only better
<specing>
in what way does the software depend on ARM in general and OMAP in particular?
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the same way every software does
<specing>
jonwil: what closed source stuff? You just said the only blob are the powerVR drivers
<jonwil>
Thats the only blob you absolutely HAVE to have
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you go shop an arbitrary software package out there on market, you will have a "system requirements:" list on it
<jonwil>
but other people will want to run more than that
<jonwil>
e.g. the N900 dialer program
<jonwil>
or the Skype stuff from the N900
<jonwil>
which btw at least as of now still works :)
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: yes and most will require an x86 of sort
<DocScrutinizer05>
or the custom software they built for their arvheological business
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: and those who need N900 will run on Neo900
* jonwil
wonders if it will be viable to use full-disk-encryption on a Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: why not?
<jonwil>
I guess it depends on how doing it will affect performance
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it has been done several times on N900 already
<jonwil>
didn't know that :)
<specing>
the AMD APUs probably have AES-NI
<DocScrutinizer05>
so?
<specing>
one more bonus
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have no AMD
<jonwil>
I wonder if OMAP3 has any hardware crypto bits
<DocScrutinizer05>
ask freemangordon
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it has some, but is missing others that only the HS has
<specing>
plus the x86 cores inside that apu are a ton more powerful
<jonwil>
Being able to run FDE and KNOW its secure will be a good thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
or was it even the other way around: the HS locks in the crypto into M-Shield while on GP there's no M-Shield and thus crypto is userland?
<jonwil>
specing: Forget about x86, trying to use an AMD APU for the Neo900 project would be like trying to put the engine from a Ferrari into a big rig truck
<jonwil>
it just wouldn't work ever
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: please stop it. Discussion of arbitrary other architectures is somewhat off topic and pointless for Neo900
<jonwil>
IF you want a phone with an X86 inside, go buy a phone with an x86 inside
<specing>
I want an open hardware x86 phone running free software only
<Wizzup_>
then this is not the place
<jonwil>
Apple and Google both say they have full-disk-encryption in the latest OS versions and devices but you cant trust either company (not just because of the company but because you cant trust that they haven't been given a secret order to backdoor the FDE by the US government)
<DocScrutinizer05>
then see where you can get that. Neo900 is NOT about software at all
<Wizzup_>
You can have a phone running free software, here
<Wizzup_>
but the hw platform is not up for discussion at this point
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 is a HARDWARE platform based on OMAP3
<Wizzup_>
Pretty much all the 'liberating' work for the n900 can be carried over and vice versa
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-04-21 Tue 00:27:29] <specing> DocScrutinizer05: but from the software point of view, an x86 should be much easier to get going
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-04-21 Tue 00:28:45] <DocScrutinizer05> well, I haven't seen a single laptop with x86 so far that could do more than 24h standby with screen dimmed
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-04-21 Tue 00:28:50] <DocScrutinizer05> from battery
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-04-21 Tue 00:29:20] <DocScrutinizer05> N(eo)900 does 1 week, easily
<DocScrutinizer05>
there been more, please read chanlog. we don't need to repeat all that
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw when you hope you could install and run arbitrary x86 binaries on a x86-core based SoC/phone, you're massively mistaken. Neo900 can install and run N900 binaries, but no X86 phone usually can run X86 binaries built for e.g. KDE
<specing>
yes, because it is android and android does not use X or wayland or whatever else KDE supports
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<specing>
in most cases is android
<Lord_Farkenstein>
will the neo900 get satellite radio
<Lord_Farkenstein>
sirius
<Lord_Farkenstein>
xm
<Lord_Farkenstein>
etc
<Lord_Farkenstein>
i travel alot and use satellite radio mostly
<specing>
it is the legacy baggage in x86 that counts here
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, not feasible. We looked into it but ...
<Lord_Farkenstein>
why not
<DocScrutinizer05>
a) our modem needs to get soldered, and b) we don't have the antennas and generally RF design for it
<specing>
and unless you have an intel, it should be possible to insert a liveCD from 5 years ago into an USB optical drive and boot into graphical env on the phone
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: please stop it
<specing>
fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can boot a live CD for BeagleBoard on Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
and probably even one for ARM servers
<Wizzup_>
specing: bullshit
<Wizzup_>
Why does it count if you only use FOSS?
<Wizzup_>
Then you can just compile it for another target
<Wizzup_>
You could use SPARC and it still would not matter
<Lord_Farkenstein>
yeah man!! wooo
<Wizzup_>
excuse my language
<Lord_Farkenstein>
horseshit is better than bullshit though
<Lord_Farkenstein>
imo
<Lord_Farkenstein>
better texture
<Lord_Farkenstein>
more pliable
<Lord_Farkenstein>
swiss army knife of fecal matter
<Lord_Farkenstein>
Wizzup_: wouldnt you agree
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry
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<DocScrutinizer05>
please calm down and check your speech, in 30 min I'll remove the quiet
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe it doesn't even need 30 min
<DocScrutinizer05>
addendum: c) I dunno of any sat modem modules
<DocScrutinizer05>
even while Frankenstein is gone, it's maybe worth mentioning that we only can pull off neo900 since we use pre-certified modem modules and no genuine radio chipsets for which we had to do a complete FCC+<150 other countries> radio certification
<specing>
I doubt my chinese phone has complete radio certification....
<DocScrutinizer05>
getting cert is a negligible requirement for big dudes like Nokia (or our Gemalto modem manuf) who build possibly millions of devices, but an absolute killer for a little company like Neo900 UG who only can build a 500 or 1000 devices and has to pay $$$$$$ for the certs
<specing>
<+DocScrutinizer05> you can boot a live CD for BeagleBoard on Neo900 <--- maybe, but there is no generic stuff on ARM. You cannot just download an ARM liveCD that would run anywhere (on anything produced in the last 5-10 years atleast).
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: then good luck to you. The chinese seller prolly is out of reach for FCC or whatever-the-name of your local authority. You however are in for a reat treat: fines up to millions of bucks and jail time in the range of years, depending on your local laws
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: you're asking me for a Maemo live CD?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have flasher-3.5 for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh, we have a VM if you prefer
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's called scratchbox
<DocScrutinizer05>
it even can run both ARM and X86 code, on a X86 machine
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw I doubt that *any* "BIOS" of any X86 based phone will allow booting from a live CD attached to USB-OTG. Maemo *does* (or at least did) support booting from USB attached mass stroage device
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's an R&D flag in flasher-3.5 for that
<specing>
coreboot does
<DocScrutinizer05>
and which X86 phone comes with coreboot?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, this whole discussion is basically futile
<specing>
I do not think there are any just yet. But there are PC engines boards with 4.5W AMD dual-core APUs that come with coreboot
<specing>
Intel does not want coreboot anywhere near their chips for some reason
<DocScrutinizer05>
booting arbitrary live CD on a X86 phone turns the phone into a palmtop PC
<DocScrutinizer05>
without any cellular support, and probably even without support for most other peripherals
<specing>
there were some cellular modems supported in linux mainline last time I looked
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha
<specing>
for x86 laptops that come with such things
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, please take it elsewhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe #openluchbox is the right channel for this sort of discussions
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