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<andreas_>
hello, how is the progress with neo900 or are already finished ?
<ilon>
andreas_: Its moving forward
<DocScrutinizer05>
not finished yet :-) Preparing yet another step ahead from a volunteer project towards a normal company that needs to source components etc and has a proper webshop where you can do regular preorders
<andreas_>
can i buy it already ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and recently we have some ramble since the decline of EUR vs USD massively messed up our business plan
<DocScrutinizer05>
andreas_: you can do a preorder in a few days when shop opens
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas the price is really steep
<andreas_>
do mean in about 1 week and how much would a preorder cost ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, not THAT steep when you compare it to e.g. a iPhone which is sold by the millions vs our custom made hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
preorder is 480 DOWN PAYMENT for complete device , 350 DOWN PAYMENT for the NeoN swap board to upgrade your own N900
<andreas_>
how much would a preorder cost ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we estimate the final cost for the NeoN board at 990.- maximum now, very conservative calculation
<DocScrutinizer05>
we might cut off a 100 or 200 on component costs *maybe*. We used the prices we *know* we can buy the components for, right away. You always have a chance to find them cheaper, sometimes massively cheaper
<DocScrutinizer05>
but there's no warranty for that
<andreas_>
is this crowd funding
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, now it's transforming to regular merchandise
<DocScrutinizer05>
we transform all"donations" into regular down payments
<DocScrutinizer05>
(actually we internally did several months ago already, and we published that, though not the big news since it always was meant to be like that)
<ds2>
how much more is due at final delivery?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: [2015-05-06 Wed 20:34:38] <DocScrutinizer05> we might cut off a 100 or 200 on component costs *maybe*. We used the prices we *know* we can buy the components for, right away. You always have a chance to find them cheaper, sometimes massively cheaper
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<DocScrutinizer05>
oops wrong line
<ds2>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2015-05-06 Wed 20:33:30] <DocScrutinizer05> we estimate the final cost for the NeoN board at 990.- maximum now, very conservative calculation
<andreas_>
is there still until you have finished another device with linux, which is at that time functioning ?
<ds2>
hmmm 990 heh
<ds2>
are these euros or dollars?
<andreas_>
what does this mean ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, that's pain, but at least for our US customers nothing changed
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's EUR
<ds2>
Ouch
<ds2>
too rich for me :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
USD is almost same now
<ds2>
thought it was about 1.2-1.3?
<DocScrutinizer05>
EUR/USD is almost parity, which is exactly our problem
<ds2>
wish I was there this year instead of last :(
<andreas_>
do you take the cover from n900 or neo900 ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
so again: for USD customers, basically nothing changed at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
andreas_: we use N900 and upgrade them
<ilon>
EUR<>USD: 1,1364
<ds2>
was the numbers revised since last year? thought they were a little lower
<andreas_>
OK thank you, I will try to support you -- bye
<DocScrutinizer05>
andreas_: appreciated! :-)
<ds2>
ah yes it was
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: it sounds like the slightly higher volume goal of 1K units didn't pan out?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not really panning out so far, partly since any savings on BOM sourcing only are realized during actually buying the components, and on order side prolly since we didn't offer regular preorders so far
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<ds2>
ah :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm still absolutely convinced we can sell a 1000 devices when we can order the N900 for them right now
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<specing>
How many components inside the N900 case do you plan on reusing?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
when we could build a 3k (e.g. by courtesy of a VC investor or whatever) I'm quite convinced we could sell them too and at lower price. But then, we would need 3k N900 now, and that's a tad tricky
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<specing>
has CaptHindsight suggested 3D printing them yet?
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: the case, antennas, slider mechanics, display, touch panel aka digitizer and the flat plastic cable with the front camera, ALS, indicator LED, proxi sensor and earpiece
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, he did
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, plus keymat
<specing>
...and?
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas the case which could get printed is our least problem, they are still available in "abundance" for ~10-15 bucks
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually those cases have metal parts you can't print. E.G battery bay, a few special springs etc
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, sorry, I'm busy filling customs forms to finally secure a 500 1GByte chips for you guys and gals :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
would have ordered a 1000, can't afford
<specing>
how much a pop?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hard to tell, we had quite a lot of overhead finding and evaluating them
<ds2>
pun intended?
<ds2>
:D
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the end around 25 or 30 per chip, I'd think, all labor and collateral expense included, for a qty of 1000
<DocScrutinizer05>
ds2: sorry, I actually missed the pun. Bear with me, no native speaker here
<specing>
that is a lot
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, sure
<ds2>
<specing> how much a pop?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a rare chip, hard to find, and it took lots of work to find trustworthy sources that actually can deliver
<ds2>
or you gave up on POP?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, I could guess... :-) Actually "Package on Package"
<specing>
Why are you using rare chips?
<ds2>
POP
<DocScrutinizer05>
because they are the only chips existing
<DocScrutinizer05>
special build only made for Nokia
<ds2>
would have been easier if you could drop the NAND
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are no publicly known PoP-168 with 8Gb/4Gb density
<DocScrutinizer05>
even RAM-only 8Gb density is not exactly simple to find, for LPDDR
<DocScrutinizer05>
we found a LPDDR2 (iirc) and it was quite a guessing until I finally thought it's rather unlikely it would work on LPDDR interface
<DocScrutinizer05>
and at that time we already found first hints about the unobtainium chips which are proven to work in Nokia N9
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I didn't check the RAM-only variant any longer, particularly since it wasn't even cheaper
<DocScrutinizer05>
but now for the customs/fedex paperwork to finally receive them critters. cya
<specing>
why are you using special nokia-only chips?
<DocScrutinizer05>
please see my last 8 lines
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<specing>
"there are no publicly known PoP-168 with 8Gb/4Gb density" brings up two questions
<specing>
1) why do you need PoP-168
<specing>
2) Why do you need 8Gb/4Gb density? What do other phones use?
<DocScrutinizer05>
1) necause that's what the back of OMAP3 looks like
<specing>
oooh!
<DocScrutinizer05>
2) because our customers asked LOUDLY for 1GB RAM
<specing>
that makes sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks! (pheeew)
<specing>
No package on package on package?
<specing>
or package on package on package on package?
<DocScrutinizer05>
never seen that, also would get too high for our stacking
<specing>
or package on package on package on package on package?
<specing>
or ...?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well we might have managed to afjust stacking IF there were such chips
<DocScrutinizer05>
adjust*
<norly>
DocScrutinizer05: so are you actually buying used N900s in order to refurbish them?
<norly>
If yes, would it be possible to buy a complete device, but instead of shipping it ready-to-go, get all the parts (NeoN board, N900 case, maybe even the old N900 MoBo if it's an used one) you source for it in their original form so I can combine them with spares from my old N900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
norly: nope, we get refurbished N900 in excellent condition
<DocScrutinizer05>
for your seconf question: of course :-))
<norly>
awesome, thanks!
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: hmmm
<DocScrutinizer05>
just mention it under "special instructions" in your preorder (when shop opens in a few days)
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: you could make a board that accepts a 168-pin BGA on one side and rams on others :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, we pondered that
<norly>
I will. That way I'd basically get 2 devices, a Neo900, and a N900 thanks to the MoBo (my 2 old ones have the dreaded loose radio chip, aka "No SIM" problem)
<DocScrutinizer05>
as a last resort solution
<DocScrutinizer05>
norly: I'm positively sure I can even sell a second spare N900 mobo to you for a very fair price :-)
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: it would enable you to make 3GB RAM neo900s
<DocScrutinizer05>
specing: nope. OMAP3 addr space is max 1GB
<specing>
-.-
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<norly>
DocScrutinizer05: great, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks again!
<DocScrutinizer05>
yw
<specing>
well this is what you get for using an OMAP ;p
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas OMAP3 was a core spec for the whole project
<DocScrutinizer05>
no way to change that
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<ilon>
I'll have a really hard time convincing myself and my goverment that i need to spend this amount of cash on a cellphone
<ilon>
but the lack of alternatives have made me hang in here like a maniac since i first found out about the project way back when it started :/
<DocScrutinizer05>
I completely understand that
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: move the IRC terminal out of sight and fill in those paperworks! :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had a hard time convincing myself that I need a flat and food (though both quite cheap resp few) and thus need a monthly minimum amount to pay for that. I'd rather love to do like the first 9 months of the project where my resources allowed me to work for free for making Neo900 come true
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: you dont need to explain, I'm fully aware of the fact that labour is not free :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it however wouldn't change THAT much on the final price either
<specing>
ilon: sure there is, a $10 samsung dumbphone ;p
<specing>
and a $0.01 piece of paper to write down your contacts
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: I've seen (and backed) quite a few projects by now that have promised gold and eternal sunshine, just to fall short on cash due to unforseen expenses / R&D cost in the end
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: hardware development is a delicate and quite expensive business.
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the rest, stay assured we do *all we can* to bring down price, and I really hope (though I can't guarantee) and expect - based on educated reasoning - that the current estimation will not rise further. Unless USD/EUR goes down the sewer
<ilon>
specing: You'd be surprised if you knew how many REALY cheap phones i've been using over the years, and how long i've kept them
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: I actually feel confidence that all of you do the best you can, and that the price will no matter what rice more :)
<specing>
No wait
<specing>
what about a laptop with built-in cellular modem?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I really hope it won't, and I have good reasons to believe it actually won't
<specing>
keep the laptop in a bag on you back and cut holes in the back for ventilation
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: Its sad but true, out of all great ideas though about when it comes to hardware, the very few that actually are being developed and built have a tendency to go way over budget.
<DocScrutinizer05>
all our BOM pricing is based on dk/mouser/farnell, ask specing what he thinks about it
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: Neo900 isnt even close to competing in the top league yet ;D
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know :-)
<specing>
mouser aint that bad compared to farnell
<specing>
farnell is 10 % more markup than other distributors
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: oh, kind of sane estimate then, maybe
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually for such a project we are *cheap* - sorry to say that. Compare to e.g. TI Zoom-II
<specing>
I hate them but I often have to order there because I need some part that no other one carries
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: have you included the mandatory 30% on top of worst case as well? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they sold several 1000s of them, if not 10000s
<DocScrutinizer05>
ilon: yes, that's the margin we'll never see on this project
<ilon>
I've ordered from farnell some times when i really CANT find it else where
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<ilon>
its like amazon, i stay away as long as i can
<specing>
they do have cheapest shipping (at 5 euro)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, exactly. It's only 'convenient' since you can poll the prices and availability instantly
<specing>
compared to mouser, which wants 80 euro for 'saver' shipping
<DocScrutinizer05>
but it's no way near the price you can get from industrial grade sourcing
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: i have a rather proper formula to estimate time for development (software), i do a best guess at "worst case", add som 30% margin and then double it.
<specing>
ha
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: its surprisingly close most of the times :D
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ilon: that formula is amazingly similar to my own one :-)
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: like i said, its kind of proper
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, like you suggested, going afk, tasks pending
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for your support :-)
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: and if applied consistiently, you wouldnt get as much problems with unhappy customers as those who just say "how hard can it be? i could probably get you a first draft by tomorrow"
<ilon>
DocScrutinizer05: have fun with those papers, i dont envy you.
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<ilon>
specing: 5 € shipping? on farnell?
<specing>
ilon: yeah
<ilon>
thats not so bad
<ilon>
if they would have competetive prices
<ilon>
:)
<ilon>
specing: Are you from Sweden?
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<specing>
nope
<ilon>
You just like the server? :P
<specing>
what
<ilon>
22:22:09 [freenode] -!- server : wolfe.freenode.net [Stockholm, SE]
<specing>
oh
<specing>
I just connect to irc.freenode.net, it is a random rotation
<ilon>
I see
<ilon>
22:22:43 [freenode] -!- server : kornbluth.freenode.net [Frankfurt, Germany]
<ilon>
Guess I'm a tad more old fashioned
<specing>
I never cared about IRC latency
<ilon>
Me neither
<specing>
30ms, 300ms, it does not matter
<ilon>
I still have my config tho
<ilon>
dont really have to care about it
<ilon>
every other year when i migrate server / shell etc i have to restart irssi
<ilon>
Oh well, time to go afk
<ilon>
laters
<ds2>
I'd argue there is no real way to significantly lower the prices at these volumes :(
<ds2>
btw - are you guys keeping the full size sim holder on the Neo900?
<specing>
there is a way
<specing>
no using old OMAPs ;)
<specing>
not*
<Humpelstilzchen>
OMAP ist soo dead..
<specing>
you know what happens when a project starts and is based on obsolete parts?
<specing>
when the project ends the parts will be obsolete obsolete
<Humpelstilzchen>
it works because all parts are well tested? ;)
<specing>
and expensive because they are not in production anymore (and also perhaps unobtainium)
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: Problem is it needs to be an OMAP for the OS..
<specing>
and the OS is Linux with a million hacks like it is usual in the ARM world
<Humpelstilzchen>
maemo?
<specing>
* GNU/Linux
<DocScrutinizer05>
we are monitoring availability and any EOL announcements. For TI I think Nikolaus found a guarantee they won't EOL the SoC
<Humpelstilzchen>
s/GNU/proprietary/g
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had no look into it, but iirc he called it "catalog parts"
<ds2>
they's just up rev in a subtle but incompatible way ;)
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: its a disaster even without blobs
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: works fine, working gui, good usability
<specing>
on phones it is either an onscreen keyboard or some mini slideout one
<specing>
neither is much good
<Humpelstilzchen>
How many *new* slide keyboards have you seen in the last ~3 years?
<specing>
I don't really monitor smartphones
<Humpelstilzchen>
me neither, but I use public transport ;)
<specing>
I use public transport too
<specing>
and pop out my new T400
<specing>
thinkpad
<Humpelstilzchen>
(aka I'm sitting in a train every train with 50+ people in the same wagon staring on their smartphone)
<Humpelstilzchen>
T420 ;)
<specing>
I need to acquire a 12" thinkpad, 14" is kinda big to use in tight spaces
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: you are using it wrong.
<specing>
T420 has unremovable backdoors
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: you need to use the metal design of your tp to make room for it
<Humpelstilzchen>
backdoors?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, first time my N900 actually acted up with audio during phonecall
<DocScrutinizer05>
*massively*
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: look up Intel Management Engine
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: disabled
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: you cannot disable it
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's see...
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: it is disabled in bios and I was unable to access it
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: It is a seperate processor in the chipset that runs its own OS
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: if you actually disabled it (as in not loaded the firmware), your machine would die after about 30 minutes
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: source?
<specing>
atleast that is what happens with nehalem (1st gen)
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: it doesn't say that disabling it in bios doesn't work
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: do you actually trust your bios?
<specing>
Humpelstilzchen: because on my T400, I've disabled the ATI GPU in stock bios
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: of course never
<specing>
and what do you know, switching radeon driver to low power decreases system power use by 6 W
<specing>
"disabled" my ass
<Humpelstilzchen>
specing: nvidia optimus here (the one with the rm -rf)
<specing>
so basically you do not trust your bios
<specing>
hence you cannot trust anything on that machine
<Humpelstilzchen>
I trust that machine enough
<specing>
ok
<Humpelstilzchen>
and I don't own a smartphone and my n900 doesn't have a sim
<freemangordon>
guy, you know... I am a bit of surprised with the over-negative reaction about the prise increase. I am waiting for my (very old) car to have a new paint... and it will cost me ~800 euros. It will take ~ 2 weeks, the work that has to be done is ordinary. Now, neo900 has nothing to do with a car painting, yet, a price about 200 euros more seems unacceptable by the majority. weird :(
<freemangordon>
*guys
<Humpelstilzchen>
freemangordon: neo900 will not take you from home to work (at least not that I know)
<freemangordon>
Humpelstilzchen: so? a gadget that doesn't take me from home to work should be for free? elaborate please
<Humpelstilzchen>
freemangordon: point is that a car is in a different price range then a computer, you agree?
<Humpelstilzchen>
(personal computer, lets take supercomputer out)
<freemangordon>
sure. but I talk about paint, not the car itself
<Humpelstilzchen>
still its a car
<freemangordon>
no, it is a paint
<freemangordon>
my car is in a perfect condition (as a car) with or without a new paint.
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<Humpelstilzchen>
for some people the look is the most important attribute of a car
<freemangordon>
the point was the price
<freemangordon>
yep, and I tent to keep away from such people :)
<freemangordon>
*tend
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: my call audio acts up :-/ (first time it happens to me) Any suggestions what to check for?
<freemangordon>
"voice-cmtspeech.c: Failed to push dl frame to asyncq"
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least no other strange RF
<DocScrutinizer05>
EEEEW
<freemangordon>
does it behave the same way after restart?
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno, haven't restarted yet
<specing>
freemangordon: hey, I buy my laptops at 150 euro each, 1000 euro is way overpriced for a smartphone ;)
<freemangordon>
specing: sure, but neo900 is not a simple "smartphone"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I however used it to play music a lot and had much web browsing which usually I don't
<specing>
freemangordon: my laptops are not simple laptops either
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: that shouldn't mess the modem audio
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, let's give the critter the huge heavy boot
<freemangordon>
specing: you can put your laptop(s) in your pocket?
<specing>
freemangordon: I can :)
<specing>
freemangordon: one of my jackets has a really, really, really, huge^Wamerican-sized pocket
<freemangordon>
man, what kind of trousers do you wear?
<freemangordon>
:)
<freemangordon>
anyway, /me gtg. bbl if it is not too late :)
* DocScrutinizer05
too
<DocScrutinizer05>
enough of stuff pending for later though: finalize the email letter to all our custoners, give the webshop a last massive test, verify and approve the list of vouchers
<specing>
wait, aren't you an engineer?
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<specing>
when was the last time you engineered lately?
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, that's actually a while ago
<DocScrutinizer05>
all that damn c**p piling up and needs to get done
<specing>
thats no way to make a smartphone
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you're a 2 man company, you can't be picky on the jobs you do
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I appreciate all help. Like x29a giving webshop another test today, so I can use the results. Like members of this channel helping with writing newsletters
<DocScrutinizer05>
etc pp
<DocScrutinizer05>
filling in 6 pages of customs/fedex forms is only another thing I'd rather not have to do
<specing>
DocScrutinizer05: who is the one working in the shadows?
<DocScrutinizer51>
anyway cheers
<specing>
oh there are two DocScrutinizers
<specing>
just notices
<specing>
d
<bencoh>
they're the only one and same Joerg :)
<specing>
two Joergs
<DocScrutinizer51>
this one is N900 RX-51
<specing>
you are IRCing from your phone?
<DocScrutinizer51>
sure
<specing>
painful...
<bencoh>
not that much, the n900 keyboard is quite usable for IM
<specing>
still painful
<DocScrutinizer51>
Neo900: the palmtop PC with phone for masochists
<DocScrutinizer51>
;-P
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<DocScrutinizer51>
x29a: wait a minute, heading to my workstation
<x29a>
dont bother, im out for the day in a second
<DocScrutinizer05>
already there
<norly>
DocScrutinizer05: i tend to have quite a few audio problems, though usually related to the bluetooth headset not disconnecting properly in pulseaudio. so i just do "stop pulseaudio && start pulseaudio" as root. maybe this helps with the audio problems?
<DocScrutinizer51>
that may actually be the cause
<DocScrutinizer51>
I used BT headset
<DocScrutinizer51>
and did nasty stuff like connecting wired headset while BT was enabled etc
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<norly>
for me the sound subsystem would quite often get stuck in "bt headset" mode after turning the bt headset off
<norly>
the volume was still cranked up to the max, and no sound could be heard from the internal speakers/handset
<norly>
restarting PA solved that, so i guess some transition in its internal wiring goes wrong every now and then
<DocScrutinizer51>
norly: I just tested and problem persists
<norly>
then that's new to me
<DocScrutinizer51>
after clean reboot
<DocScrutinizer51>
:-(
<norly>
sometimes it did happen to me that a voice call ended up garbled (as if the decoder was out of sync or something), but hanging up and calling again fixed that IIRC
<norly>
and that is independent of the BT headset
<norly>
a completely different issue
<norly>
no idea what yours could be then, though
<norly>
if it persists, that sounds scary
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<DocScrutinizer51>
maybe this device actually suffers a hw issue with modem, like freemangordon suggested
<norly>
OTOH, if it's a regular pattern (100ms)... i do have a simpler phone where i can hear the backlight buzzing through the earpiece while it's on. thankfully it turns off a few seconds into a call though
<norly>
for me, a failing modem could be seen as errors from the McSAAB module in dmesg. it was resetting the modem after a timeout
<norly>
and during that timeout the system tends to lock up almost entirely :(
<DocScrutinizer51>
I'll investigate further when back home
<norly>
the solution is to unload the modem module...
<norly>
and use it without GSM and GPS, though on my really badly broken n900 that still means it's eating the battery for breakfast
<norly>
alright, good luck!
<DocScrutinizer51>
ta
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<Oksana>
(really badly broken n900 that still is eating the battery for breakfast) Sounds like mine... Though, to be fair, I am often using WiFi, and occasionally using 3G instead of 2G (hilly place, 2G coverage is lately shrunk)
<DocScrutinizer51>
wifi shouldsn't eat much, unless you can't use PSM