DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<wpwrak> nicksydney: i don't think they did the neo900 layout yet. but you'd have to ask DocScrutinizer05 about that
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<DocScrutinizer05> no layout for Neo900 yet
<DocScrutinizer05> except the mech ver protos
<DocScrutinizer05> which I haven't even seen the new ones yet
<DocScrutinizer05> those took not too long
<DocScrutinizer05> I think Nikolaus said "one day"
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<nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: how long you reckon the proto version took to lay out the board and route ? was wondering how long a project as complex as neo will take to lay and route
<nicksydney> wpwrak: remember the olden days lantern http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/event/29210/product/vintage-style-12-led-lantern-231146 ... this is LED will be interesting to hack it to report power and how much battery left :)
<DocScrutinizer05> another 2 or 3 days
<DocScrutinizer05> depends on a few critical details
<DocScrutinizer05> layout+routing isn't that hard. The details that need to fit mechanically are the real headache
<nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: 2-3 days by hand or mix auto routing ?
<DocScrutinizer05> we do autorouting mostly
<DocScrutinizer05> would be insane to route such stuff manually
<DocScrutinizer05> creating footprints however takes much time
<DocScrutinizer05> e.g. for the socket for the camera module
<wpwrak> making footprints is kinda fun with fped ;-)
<wpwrak> the hard bit it sometimes to "crack the code" of some drawings, especially complex mechanical parts (e.g., microsd card holders)
<wpwrak> but fped makes it really easy to actually "implement" a design. parametric cad is very useful for such things.
<nicksydney> wpwrak: when i get the chance will try to create a video for fped :)
<DocScrutinizer05> well, I'd think eagle has parametric cad too
<DocScrutinizer05> still creating the footprint e.g. for the modem takes half a day easily
<DocScrutinizer05> after all you need to label each single of the 144 pads
<nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: doesn't the vendor (TI in neo900 case) provide footprint ?
<wpwrak> label ... in the footprint ?
<DocScrutinizer05> huh? the modem is made by Siemens
<wpwrak> don't they have systematic numbers ?
<DocScrutinizer05> o.O
<DocScrutinizer05> like... the systematic numbers on a CPU?
<wpwrak> i mean the pads. or do you mean schematics symbols instead of footprints ?
<DocScrutinizer05> a pin number is different thing than the pin label
<wpwrak> yes. but the layout shouldn't have labels
<wpwrak> i mean the footprint
<wpwrak> e.g., a 32-qfn footprint shouldn't care whether pin 5 is "USB_DP", "P0_2", "A17", "nRESET", or whatever the 2^\infty chips of that size may have on that pin
<DocScrutinizer05> what worth is a footprint that's unconnected to the schemitics?
<wpwrak> the schematics symbol should make that connection
<DocScrutinizer05> *sigh*
<DocScrutinizer05> CAD using component libraries
<DocScrutinizer05> EDA rather
<wpwrak> so you clone your 32-QFN for all the chips that have a 32-QFN package ?
<DocScrutinizer05> meh, need more coffee
<wpwrak> and if you want to edit something, you edit all the clones ? ;-)
* DocScrutinizer05 headdesks
<DocScrutinizer05> look at the modem footprint
<wpwrak> you have to zoom in to be able to read the ball numbers
<wpwrak> the corresponding symbol is on page 14 of http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-bom-all.pdf
<wpwrak> symbol defines label, pin number/name, signal type
<wpwrak> footprint defines the geometry of what goes on the PCB and the corresponding names. nice and clean.
<wpwrak> looks pretty much like the same sort of structure
<DocScrutinizer05> and in eagle, a component consists of footprint plus schematics symbol since both is tightly linked
<wpwrak> footprint would have P4, P5, ...
<DocScrutinizer05> know what? I have better things to do than to discuss linguistics with you
<wpwrak> symbol USB_DP -> P5, USB_DN -> P5, ...
<wpwrak> of course, in this case you probably don't have much reuse of the footprint. but for any more common packages there's no point in having signal names at the level of the footprint
<wpwrak> ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> juts s/footprint/component library entry/g for my last 50 posts
<DocScrutinizer05> l8rs
<wpwrak> aah ;-) okay. then we're in agreement :)
<DocScrutinizer05> and for Eagle, you even want to define properties for each signal, like input|output|voltage|whatnot
<DocScrutinizer05> for DRC
<DocScrutinizer05> err ERC
<wpwrak> ah, good. kicad is a bit primitive there.
<wpwrak> it has input/output/etc. but not voltages or such
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway you do all this for each pad of the footprint(sic!) while you draw it, basically. The schem symbol is drawing a rectangle then, and a bit of lable pushing to the right and left side
<DocScrutinizer05> done in 10 minutes
<DocScrutinizer05> label pushing
<DocScrutinizer05> mech eval boards were made 50% for proving the modem footprint
<DocScrutinizer05> and yes, again footprint since it's the footprint that assigns a signal to a pad
<DocScrutinizer05> and Nik missed that one of the status signal outputs is OpenCollector and connected it to basis of an LED driver transistor
<DocScrutinizer05> which reminds me to short that transistor C-B
<DocScrutinizer05> fun, my first rework on Neo900
<wpwrak> (footprint) hmm, so is there then another layer for the geometry ? or do you have countless clones of, say, 0603 ?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, I think they are countless clones
<DocScrutinizer05> like in every CAD
<wpwrak> urgh
<DocScrutinizer05> I never really bothered. When I need to do a mass edit of a e.g. standard 0603 footprint, I guess I find a sort of global find&replace command
<wpwrak> heh. yes, that's what you need then. with a filter of what exactly you want changed. elegant ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> but maybe there's even an abstraction layer in between
<DocScrutinizer05> dunno
<wpwrak> that would help
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway I never want to change all 0603
<DocScrutinizer05> I maybe want to change the 0603 footprint geometry for one component series
<wpwrak> think of things like pcb making improving and you want a thinner line on the silk screen. that would be a "safe" change to apply everywhere
<DocScrutinizer05> I mean, how sane would it be to have same footprint geometry template/macro for 0603R and 0603 LED?
<wpwrak> generally works for me :)
<wpwrak> well, we have 0603 and 0603P - the latter is polarized
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, since you don't know about stuff like "no traces area" under the component, in kicad
<wpwrak> of course, if you want a little LED symbol in silk screen or such, then you need a specific footprint
<wpwrak> yeah, keepout areas in footprints could be useful indeed
<wpwrak> could be that this already exists in the depths of the new layout format. there's a glacially slow transition of file formats in kicad from the old "simple" formats to more extensible ones, along with a bunch of new features
<wpwrak> alas, the transition is so sluggish that it would be a pain to try to keep up. so i'm just waiting until some major blocks are finished before digging into making use of them
<wpwrak> fped has a somewhat more abstract view anyway. you basically define geometries and then it combines things into the "objects" kicad uses. e.g., pad + hole = plated through-hole (unless you specifically ask for something else)
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<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, I think similar multilevel macros are available in eagle too
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<DocScrutinizer05> maybe worth checking out the free trial version of eagle, just to have a peep into neighbor's garden?
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<wpwrak> looks pretty similar to what we have in kicad. have you ever used it ?
<viric> Eagle is the only pcb software I used in linux
<wpwrak> non-Free is bad for your karma :)
<viric> I only used tango in dos, and eagle in linux, in fact. All, more than 15 years ago. The demo version was bound to a board size, which was enough for my needs.
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<viric> wpwrak: I met a grandgrandaughter of Yrigoyen, last november.
<viric> it feels like something important. :)
<wpwrak> ;-))
<wpwrak> i live on a street named after him :) (i could almost say "avenue", but it changes type a few meters from my place)
<viric> she was lied by her family, that she was such an important person
<viric> she discovered that only after the dead of her parents, by finding impossible information in her family archives.
<viric> (like her grandmother giving birth to his father at 65)
<wpwrak> heh ;-)
<viric> she contracted a professional genealogy research, and they found the real path
<wpwrak> but what did they lie about ? so they didn't tell her she was a descentant of yrigoyen ? why hide that ?
<viric> it seems they were very ashamed of having bounds with Yrigoyen
<viric> by her description, she felt like the 'black sheep' in a fascistoid family
<wpwrak> odd. he seems to have been a pretty decent president.
<viric> I guess there was diversity of opinions about that :)
<wpwrak> and not exactly a fascist either ...
<viric> sure, hence the hidding
<viric> The fascistoid were her parents, not Yrigoyen
<wpwrak> ah, i see
<wpwrak> yes, the fascist may rightfully have considered him a sub-par president :)
<viric> on Saturday I released a new 'filegive' btw. Better and better.
<wpwrak> it's time to make a "fileget" that uses the NSA infrastructure to also acquire files you're not supposed to be able to get :)
<viric> :)
<viric> In fact I dislike all about 'security'. I find it very very boring.
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<DocScrutinizer05> WTF Yrigoyen
<wpwrak> a former president of argentina, Hipolito Yrigoyen. i live on a street that's named after him.
<DocScrutinizer05> and, any special reason to mention that today?
<DocScrutinizer05> I mean, I probably don't live in a street named after Saint Kanal, but if it was I'd wonder why to talk about it
<DocScrutinizer05> did you publish your adress recently?
* DocScrutinizer05 suspects that viric noticed the name of street where wpwrak lives, but then why would wpwrak state again that he does.
<wpwrak> viric met a descendent of yrigoyen and was impressed by that. not sure if he knew that i live on that street.
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, the waitress in "my" cafe a few years back been the daughter of our ministry of wealth
<DocScrutinizer05> errr health
<DocScrutinizer05> it actually eventually felt a bit strange, when the mother drove on backseat of those bulletproof sedans and the daughter worked in a (hippie) cafe
<wpwrak> nice ;-)
<wpwrak> and would be even nicer if she had been the daughter of a "minister of wealth" :)
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe
<viric> I had no idea about the street
<DocScrutinizer05> seems in my case mother and daughter also were not too fond about each other ;-). I'm pretty sure about the daughter
<DocScrutinizer05> well, at least she didn't like to talk about her mother
<DocScrutinizer05> probably different political party
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't think her mother lied to her though, about her own job and political prefrences
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> oops sorry - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renate_Schmidt
<DocScrutinizer05> so no minister of wealth/health, only "Vizepräsidentin des Deutschen Bundestages" and vice chief of SPD fraction of Deutscher Bundestag
<DocScrutinizer05> HAH! >>1961 - 1980: Programmiererin, Systemanalytikerin<<
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<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05, wpwrak: does AgO actually conduct as well as pure Ag?
<whitequark> I heard that quite a lot of times, that Ag is used for contact coating for this reason
<whitequark> as the oxide won't heat up more than the pure metal, therefore not causing contact welding
<whitequark> but I can't actually find any sources to back that claim.
<DocScrutinizer05> never heard that
<DocScrutinizer05> plausible though
<DocScrutinizer05> the anode pads on LCD are what? SnO2 ?
<whitequark> dunno, also silver-metal oxides conduct quite well apparently
<whitequark> AgO films have ρ of ~12 Ωcm
<whitequark> CuO films: ρ of 10⁴-10⁶ Ωcm
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<nicksydney> Some crazy person just gave robots their own Internet - http://www.dvice.com/2014-1-15/some-crazy-person-just-gave-robots-their-own-internet
<whitequark> such sensationalistic bullshit
<larsc> totally crazy
<larsc> ;)
<nicksydney> new EUR 19.98 -- Arietta G25 -- http://www.acmesystems.it/arietta .. interesting
<whitequark> it's not exactly impressive
<nicksydney> whitequark: which part you think is not impressive ? is it the speed of MCU ?
<whitequark> boards based on Allwinner have much nicer specs with comparable price
<larsc> the bang for your buck
<larsc> (is not that impressive)
<whitequark> A10 boards are usually 2x or so more expensive, but when you add the WiFi module, the difference shrinks considerably
<wpwrak> allwinner may be harder to source and to get docs. do they publish them now ?
<whitequark> and A10 boards almost always have ethernet, wifi, hdmi, and all other goodies
<whitequark> wpwrak: (harder to source) based on the amount of projects using their chips, appears that it's easy
<whitequark> (docs) rz2k would know firsthand
<whitequark> !seen rz2k
<qi-bot> whitequark, rz2k (~rz2k@188.244.38.171) was last seen quitting #qi-hardware 1 day 1 hour 25 minutes ago (19.01. 20:30) stating "" after spending 4 hours 2 minutes there.
<whitequark> he works with Allwinner boards and is quite pleased with them afaik.
<wpwrak> the atmel is available from digi-key. that's a big advantage. wish they had more of the "deep asia" products.
<nicksydney> whitequark: (AllWinner) no they don't publish the docs .. even for their current Octa Core they don't .... but Tom Cubie might have access to it as he is planning a board for it
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<wpwrak> whitequark: if you take the aliexpress route you have to verify the vendor and maybe their supply chain. or else you may some day get a box of fake parts. no fun.
<whitequark> you can even get them in LQFP!
<wpwrak> "2 Pravda St." -- US ? ;-)
<wpwrak> they're in bulgaria
<whitequark> eh?
<wpwrak> you should be able to recognize your former comrades ;-)
<whitequark> oh, I always thought Olimex was an US company. either way
<whitequark> they're not the ones to screw you over
<wpwrak> no, they're definitely good guys
<wpwrak> didn't know they're now selling chips. that's nice.
<wpwrak> alas, no data sheets there either
<nicksydney> whitequark: rockchip is coming to the surface fast and furious too .. competing head to head with AllWinner
<whitequark> wpwrak: there's quite some docs: http://linux-sunxi.org/Category:A10_Register_guide
<whitequark> http://dl.linux-sunxi.org/A13/ has what appears to be a proper reference manual
<whitequark> oh, A10 too.
<wpwrak> user manual ... decrypted ;-)
<whitequark> nicksydney: that's a pretty strong reason to not use Intel chips
<whitequark> I mean, if they were any good, why'd Intel pay? ;)
<whitequark> wpwrak: I guess Allwinner is fine with that :D
<wpwrak> good stuff, thanks !
<whitequark> I'm pretty sure it omits some interesting parts... GPU ;)
<wpwrak> hmm, some things are seriously undocumented, though. e.g., the SD3.0 controller
<whitequark> it's just like ingenic isn't it?
<wpwrak> ingenic is fairly complete. sd/mmc is definitely there, and in great detail.
<whitequark> I think audio was lacking. something surely was
<wpwrak> good, so they have found SD somewhere
<whitequark> likely in allwinner source drops
<wpwrak> yeah, that sounds like a likely source
<nicksydney> whitequark: like that....if you can't get a hold of the person in IRC .. tweet that person not email them :)
<whitequark> well I knew he was on twitter
<nicksydney> wpwrak: are you on twitter ?
<nicksydney> wpwrak: thinking of making with AllWinner A10 something like this http://www.warpboard.org/ :)
<wpwrak> was once, but only briefly
<nicksydney> wpwrak: aww....what changed ?
<nicksydney> wpwrak: do you follow arm-netbook mailing list /
<nicksydney> whitequark: do you play with any AllWinner or Rockchip board ?
<whitequark> nope
<whitequark> I prefer smaller chips to play with
<wpwrak> (twitter) didn't really find it useful
<wpwrak> (arm-netbook) nope
<whitequark> twitter is... an acquired taste :)
<wpwrak> and most of the lists i'm subscribed to i hardly even look at ;-)
<nicksydney> whitequark: when smaller in what sense ?
<nicksydney> wpwrak: i'm sure qi-hardware is not one of those "list i don't look at" :)
<whitequark> nicksydney: less complex. cortexen-m instead of cortexen-a.
<nicksydney> whitequark: cool...what board you got ?
<whitequark> nicksydney: there's stm32's discovery boards and maple leaf, and a bunch of custom ones for various tasks
<whitequark> also, with cortexen-m being much easier to design for and assemble, there's less focus on a board as a self-contained component
<nicksydney> yeah ever since i found anelok i have a great fond for M0 now :).. before I was into M3
<nicksydney> the package size impress me
* whitequark cringes at comic sans ms
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<whitequark> package size? m3 comes into tiny packages as well
<nicksydney> i mean M0 is very small compared to M3
<nicksydney> M3 is bit bigger no ?
<nicksydney> unless if you look at Energy Micro chip..they are damn small even for M3
<nicksydney> SiLabs they are called now sorry :)
<whitequark> it's a smaller core in the sense it uses slightly less silicon, but nothing in m3 really requires much bigger packages
<whitequark> package size today is determined by the pin count, not core size
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<nicksydney> ahh ok
<nicksydney> the more pin count the bigger the package size are
<nicksydney> i like BGA it's very tiny BUT it's a pain to solder
<whitequark> and a pain to make boards for. can you even have BGA with two-layer boards?
<whitequark> qfn-48 can be pretty tiny too
<nicksydney> yeah qfn is the best bet next to QFP
<nicksydney> still need to learn how to solder QFN
<nicksydney> :0
<nicksydney> have you done QFN soldering before ?
<whitequark> yep
<whitequark> both with soldering iron and hot air
<whitequark> can be a little tricky, but not much more tricky than say lqfp
<whitequark> less chance for solder bridges, but harder to place properly
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<nicksydney> will be interesting to go through the process of doing it myself when i get the KL chip
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<nicksydney> wpwrak: for flashing to anelok you use OpenOCD right ? forgot if we have a doc for it ?
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<mknight> MKRAND - A Quantum Cellular Randomness Well : http://www.tag.md/public/mkrand-TA1.tar.gz
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<wpwrak> nicksydney: no, i use the file-based flasher of the frdm-kl25z board
<nicksydney> lost there..so how is the pin configuration between anelok and the kl25z board ?
<wpwrak> the board contains a programmer circuit. that circuit can either program the chip on the board or one you connect on the outside.
<wpwrak> i use that programmer circuit. the SWD is some jtag variant and therefore a bit complex, and support for it in openocd and such doesn't seem to be very smooth just yet.
<wpwrak> so i took the approach that would get me results in the fastest way. eventually i'll want to get rid of the board. but there's no rush.
<wpwrak> also, i can make a dfu boot loader for the kl25, which would eliminate the board for anything but the boot loader updates (which should be very rare, typically only once in the life of a board)
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<nicksydney> can you tell me what to connect where in terms of interface the kl25 with anelok ?
<nicksydney> want to try it once i'm able to get the KL QFN chip
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<wpwrak> SWD_DIO, SWD_CLK, nRESET, VDD, GND. that's all you need.
<nicksydney> ok cool...that will do for now...once it's up and running will need your help again :)
<wpwrak> hehe :)