jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<earl-ducaine> no-defun-allow: I was hoping to avoid hard-coding ASCII codes, which on reflection is silly. The (horizontal) tab character along with vertical tab, form feed, etc. is only meaningful within the context of ASCII
<Nilby> In case of reality shifts one could say, #9=#.(loop for i from 0 below char-code-limit when (string-equal "TAB" (char-name (code-char i))) return (code-char i))
<Nilby> But I can't find any CL that doesn't understand #\tab.
<Nilby> But #\bell vs #\bel on the other hand.
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<no-defun-allowed> (name-char "Dog") in SBCL is funnier than it should be. Sure, lispms have Super, Hyper, Top, Greek, etc keys, but what about the Dog character?
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<earl-ducaine> aeth: Only #\Newline and #\Space must be present. The others are 'semi-standard';
<aeth> earl-ducaine: does any implementation not provide any of those?
<aeth> It seems to me that they might not be mandated because they might not exist in some encodings
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<aeth> but those encodings are dead now
<aeth> but you're right, they're not "must"
<Nilby> #\dog is currently more tragic than funny for me, since it only come up properly in 2-3 out of like 15 different things, and when it does come up, it looks different an sometimes pathetic.
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<earl-ducaine> aeth: The motivation for the question was writing a lisp function compatible with the C function isspace. That requires \t \v \f and \r. So, \v (vertical tab) is the one that's problematic.
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<moon-child> why do you want to do that?
<earl-ducaine> But in my case, there's no good reason I can think of for not using (code-char 11) as suggested above.
<aeth> I personally rely on code-char being an ASCII superset (probably Unicode) even though it's not guaranteed. I'm not sure there's any real alternative.
<earl-ducaine> moon-child: isspace is widely used in C parsing to determine whitespace characters, especially parsers. In my specific case writing writing a cl scanner that accepts the wayland protocol in exactly the same way as the model implementation.
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<borei> good morning/good afternoon !
<aeth> oh, hmm, the commercial implementations might still have weird encodings
<Nilby> Also some of Lisp Machines have semi-incompatible encodings.
<iissaacc> sup lithpers
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<earl-ducaine> aeth: cl-babel provides a compatability layer with respect to encoding. I was checking it out when I was investigating #\Tab. There are indeed comments with regard to implementation idiosyncrasies.
* no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: notfunny-abelson.png (125KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/QgqTdYHvSVqRQjrfslNsAakd/notfunny-abelson.png >
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<earl-ducaine> both allegro and lispworks
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<beach> contrapunctus: I think there is a better way to do optical music recognition. Trying to do it automatically is going to introduce too many errors. I would prefer an interactive approach where the operator is in charge, but the software helps out. We can discuss this later if you like.
<contrapunctus> beach: sure 🙂
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<borodust> Xach: no probs, thanks!
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<borodust> Xach: bodge-nanovg should work now too
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<flip214> I started OMR (image => midi) in 1998 or so... but then funding was gone
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<contrapunctus> flip214: nice 😳 Would you like to give it another go? I might be more motivated if I had someone working on it with me 😀
<flip214> contrapunctus: some interest is still there, of course... time is limited, but we can discuss ideas via email (make a mailing list?)
<contrapunctus> Although a mostly-interactive solution might actually be less work than a batch scanning + interactive proofreading solution.
<flip214> well, I'd just write midi files and have the operator use whatever midi editor is prefered for fixing things up.
<flip214> (what fixups? recognition will be PERFECT)
<remexre> er, common-lisp.net as a whole, rather
<contrapunctus> flip214: Ah, I'd like to export Music(S?)XML, MEI, and maybe Lilypond. 🤔
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<flip214> remexre: ack, ssh is dead too
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<remexre> oof, and archive.org is giving me "The search engine encountered the following error: invalid or no response from Elasticsearch"
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<flip214> remexre: up again
<remexre> sweet, thx
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<jmarciano> /;leave
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<Xach> borodust: I'm having trouble using the stable tag of bodge-blobs-support. I'm getting "fatal: not a valid object name"
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<phoe> Xach: I suggest that you remove links to Quickdocs from http://blog.quicklisp.org/2020/09/september-2020-quicklisp-dist-update.html
<Xach> phoe: why?
<phoe> Quickdocs should burn altogether because it hasn't been updated since 2019.
<Xach> Oh no. I like(d) quickdocs!
<mfiano> Yes, please don't link to Quickdocs
<phoe> it mentions 2019-12-27
<phoe> so did I
<Xach> Ok, this is news to me. I will update.
<phoe> but at this point it's old and confuses people
<phoe> I fixed a bug in someone else's code who downloaded a project from quickdocs instead of git
<phoe> and they got a 2019 version
<phoe> at some point I might become annoyed enough to actually go to war with all the abandoned fukamachiware that is still prominent all around the net
<beach> Isn't quickdocs the one that gathers all the documentation strings (including those for internal stuff) but doesn't take into account real documentation?
<phoe> quickdocs being one very good example of a website that was once good™ and then got abandoned, making it horrible™
<phoe> beach: yes
<mfiano> beach: Yes
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<beach> That's what I remembered, yes.
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<mseddon> and yeesh. can we all start using https, it's 2020, ssl certs are free and easy to set up. :P
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<jackdaniel> while I agree that https is rather a good thing, it is not that there are no issues with making it omnipresent standard
<mfiano> I would find it interesting for such a project to handle "real documentation".
<mfiano> More interesting would be handling #'(setf documentation) runtime changes :)
<mseddon> jackdaniel: that's a crap argument for not employing it though. Safety belts aren't 100% either.
<jackdaniel> energy efficiency, bandwidch increase (also speed), complicated specification (i.e hard to get right to implement from scratch)
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<jackdaniel> the last one applies also to so called "web"; adding more and more crap to the "standard' makes it impossible undertaking to anyone who is not a corporation with deep pockets
<jackdaniel> but that's offtopic
<jackdaniel> sorry about that
<mseddon> np, I kinda started it :) back to lisping
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<jackdaniel> (and I don't think of my arguments as being crap, in fact I took some time to think about this topic)
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<phoe> okay, anger time over, time to do elsethings
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<ebrasca> Good to know quickdocs is outdated.
<phoe> it's both good and terrible to know quickdocs is outdated
<phoe> good, because now me and you know not to use it
<phoe> terrible, because hardly anyone else will know not to use it
<mseddon> only brave adventurers deep in the logs.
<phoe> or take a look at the project dates on quickdocs and compare those with git releases
<mfiano> Also good, because it's one more reminder and one more straw to break more camels' backs and not to rely on fukamachiware
<jackdaniel> virtual pointer in charming in action: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/c9d36e0f-terminal-pointers.webm
<phoe> woah! nice
<jackdaniel> thanks
<mseddon> jackdaniel: cute!
<jackdaniel> (virtual pointer that is an "emulated" pointer which acts on keyboard gestures)
<phoe> does McCLIM or CLIM have support for multiple pointers?
<jackdaniel> yes
<jackdaniel> however it is not tested
<jackdaniel> so it is probably broken implementaiton-wise
<phoe> there are few windowing systems that support multiple mice
<phoe> so I can imagine it is not tested very well
<jackdaniel> there are more pointer devices then a mice - i.e a touchscreen
<jackdaniel> and it is more common in notebooks (and works fairly well)
<phoe> oh, like that! yes, I see, a touchscreen can have multiple click support easily
<mseddon> hopefully it's relatively easy to also add support for gestures like pinch etc that use multiple pointers.
<Nilby> jackdaniel: are you using ncurses as a compositor?
<mseddon> ncurses would probably have clipped that text instead of wrapping it.
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<jackdaniel> sorry, I was afk
<jackdaniel> Nilby: I only use small .c file to put terminal in raw mode
<jackdaniel> then I use escape codes (as for ecma-48) + few extension escape codes as for xterm
<Xach> that is very cool
<jackdaniel> thanks
<Xach> we are only a few short years from an ide as nice as borland
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<Nilby> Hmmm. I guess that's no compositor then. That looks very fast for no compositor.
<jackdaniel> if it eats less than 8GB of ram we are bleeding edge regardless :)
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<jackdaniel> Nilby: I have written buffering myself, I've blogged a little about that
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<schweers> Xach: do you really find Borland better than Emacs with SLIME?
<jackdaniel> the target goal is to write a clim application and be able to run it over: terminal, web and natively (or even switch at runtime;)
<Nilby> jackdaniel: Wow, Thanks for that blog post. I wrote a lisp-only curses-like thing but it's very slow, so I'm envious.
<Xach> schweers: no, i do not
<schweers> phew
<jackdaniel> Nilby: sure
<Xach> jackdaniel: do you have a cooked terminal for the debugger? is the animated ui terminal separate from the rest or is it the only interaction terminal?
<jackdaniel> Xach: could you rephrase?
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<Xach> jackdaniel: say you have a bug in your code when you move the cursor somewhere, and it would normally trigger the debugger. what happens?
<Xach> does the debugger appear? if so, where?
<jackdaniel> ah, that. for now I'm cheating.
<Xach> lol
<jackdaniel> C-s opens a swank server
<jackdaniel> and I have a debugger there
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<jackdaniel> but eventually debugger will be another "window" in the terminal, yes
<Xach> that was a minor thing that always made me wonder how to even begin
<borodust> Xach: ill have a look in a few hours
<Xach> a debugger in a raw terminal is pretty ugly!
<jackdaniel> that's true :)
<jackdaniel> you have all
<Xach> a default debugger, anyway
<jackdaniel> this no line wrap
<Xach> but a cooked debugger in a cooked terminal could be really nice!
<Xach> as long as it has no display bugs :)
<Xach> sorry, raw
<Xach> not cooked
* Nilby has a cooked debugger, but it has bug :(
<Nilby> *bugs
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<schweers> Xach: out of curiosity: what do you mean by “cooked”?
<jackdaniel> cooked as opposite to raw: )
<schweers> I got that part. But not what that actually means.
<jackdaniel> Xach: and the question about animation? I did not get that neither
<schweers> Maybe I just don’t know enough about terminals.
<Xach> schweers: cooked means the terminal interprets input and output into higher level control sequences
<Xach> schweers: so if you hit Ctrl-C it sends an interrupt, not a byte
<Xach> and if it prints a newline, it does a carriage return too
<schweers> I see. And a terminal can be in one of those two modes?
<Xach> schweers: as i understand it in unix, yes
<schweers> Cool, good to know
<Xach> jackdaniel: "animation" is a poor choice of words. watching it as a movie made me think of an animated movie, not a recording of an interactive session.
<Xach> things move on screen: they are animated (by you)
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<jackdaniel> I've recorded my interactions with the terminal with the application "peek" which captures part of the X11 screen, the rest are interactions directly with the terminal
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<jackdaniel> changing output in windows is basically a stepped 60fps redraw
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<jackdaniel> (however a blinking cursor is a text style applied to a text, not a redraw)
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<mseddon> Xach: Oh! you can do borland style interfaces now- there are unicode characters for the old VGA codepage so you can get all the trimmings.
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<jackdaniel> unicode characters in terminal emulators are unreliable at best
<jackdaniel> (i.e they consume more space than one cell but less than two cells and stuff like that)
<mseddon> they're not great, I admit. and UTF-8 is fun
<mseddon> plus also terminals themselves are rather unreliable, performance wise.
<mseddon> some are very fast, some are embarrassingly janky.
<mseddon> but hey. Borland with poop emoji icons. What's not to love? :)
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<saganman> I started learning lisp again.
<beach> Great!
<saganman> thanks beach
<saganman> beach: I'm doing online degree in cs
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<beach> Wow. Congratulations!
<saganman> thanks beach
<beach> If you have any questions, don't hesitate.
<saganman> sure beach, thank you for the kind words.
<beach> Sure. What kind of degree are we talking about?
<saganman> just installed emacs on windows
<saganman> bachelors
<beach> That should be fun.
<beach> Which institution organizes it?
<saganman> yeah, I'm already familiar with programming
<saganman> Indian Institute of Technology
<beach> I think I have read their program offerings in the past.
<beach> Very complete it seems.
<jmercouris_> IIT is my nemesis, I went to IIT in the US :-)
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<jmercouris_> always taking google search results :-D
<saganman> I don't know how much lisp I remember
<beach> saganman: Careful, though. When I was teaching undergraduates, I found that it was easier to teach programming to those who had never programmed before. Those who had already programmed had often acquired bad habits that might work for small programs but not for large ones.
<saganman> last time I used it to solve project euler problems
<beach> And it was hard to make them change their habits.
<saganman> beach: this is my second bachelors
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<beach> What was the first one?
<saganman> beach: electronics and instrumentation
<beach> Nice.
<saganman> beach: we had a little bit of programming there but I was enthusiastic embedded programmer back then. Mainly doing atmega stuff.
<beach> I see.
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<madnificent> beach: fully agree. bad experience often leads to unexpected twists.
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<contrapunctus> saganman: oh, hello from Delhi 😀
<beach> We called them "cowboy programmers" (they were typically all male). They would always be convinced that we were talking BS, because they had a very long experience, so they obviously knew better. Needless to say, they were unhappy when we gave them bad grades.
<saganman> contrapunctus: Hello
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<beach> "BUT MY PROGRAM WORKS!"
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<madnificent> * temporarily
<beach> Answer: "A working program that is not maintainable is worthless because it can't be fixed, but a non-working program that is maintainable can easily be fixed to work."
<madnificent> though I can imagine it is hard to convince them though. we got a course at some point indicating changes to a project. that helped make clear why good design matters. it is a lengthy lesson.
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<beach> "because it can't evolve" is what I meant to say.
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<saganman> beach: true
<mseddon> rule 1 of code entropy: your program is breaking, and gaining bugs, because the environment it runs in is changing. You don't have to do anything, it is already melting.
<beach> madnificent: I see, yes.
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<saganman> and also experience doesn't mean they are better
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<mseddon> ^
<_death> I'm a cowboy programmer / Shooting from the hip / A bullet named cadaddr / That's three levels deep
<mseddon> 20 years visual basic programming doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
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<saganman> beach: https://xkcd.com/1954/
<saganman> this is so apt, lol
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<borodust> Xach: i'm looking into bodge-blobs-support issue but doesn't see anything wrong with the repo so far (`stable` is the tag)
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<borodust> Xach: can you paste git commands somewhere (maybe command log?), i'll try to reproduce
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<borodust> *don't see
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<Xach> borodust: i will check again
<Xach> a windstorm knocked power out! but everything is back and ready to compile
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<Xach> borodust: aha, it is a false alarm - the system is trying to archive bodge-glad first, and i have not updated it from branched to tagged.
<borodust> a bunch of excluded bodge-* systems should work now
<borodust> incl. bodge-glad
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<Xach> excellent
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<phoe> History question: why is LABELS named LABELS?
<phoe> oh, I found an answer
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<alanz> phoe, is that related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphoric_macro#Defining_anaphoric_macros (which I happened to come across today)
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<phoe> alanz: hmmmm, I actually don't think so
<alanz> just happen to be doing something vaguely similar, in refering to a self-referential function. The second example. Many ways to skin a cat, I suppose
<phoe> oh, yes
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<Xach> borodust: going down a rabbit hole of new bodge-* stuff!
* Xach adds bodge-memory and bodge-concurrency and bodge-host
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<borodust> Xach: that's the whole _I_ don't want to go onto.. what happend? something was depending on those? examples, o guess
<Xach> bodge-nuklear/example yeah
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<borodust> shite
<Xach> I keep finding more missing bodges :)
* Xach is on to bodge-math and bodge-queue
<borodust> i feel stripped
<borodust> there's nothing left
<phoe> we are quicklisp. the cl-bodge dist will be assimilated. resistance is futile, and it conses a lot anyway.
<aeth> does bodge- outnumber trivial- yet?
<borodust> i came prepared! just need to finish this pesky C++ support in :claw..
<aeth> The final challenge is outnumbering cl-foo, though
* phoe goes to make a trivial-bodge
<borodust> there's
<borodust> it's called trivial-gamekit though
<borodust> i like trivial-bodge more, though
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<borodust> you have my blessing
<phoe> gasp
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<aeth> does QL support wildcards yet? trivial-bodge can just use "BODGE-*"
<phoe> asdf would need to support those
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<phoe> but, I guess, if you make a git repository with a *ton* of submodules and slap a trivial-bodge.asd on top...
<borodust> i wonder if dist merging could be a thing
<aeth> phoe: ASDF works on systems, QL works on projects, and they're not the same... annoying projects like CL-SDL2 that use systems like SDL2 break that assumption. (And even if that assumption held, there are lots of secondary systems)
<Inline> projects, systems, modules, packages
<borodust> amen
<aeth> The goal of trivial-bodge would be to load every bodge project, but not necessarily every bodge system (since e.g. some might just be for tests... although at the moment every bodge-* project in Quicklisp has one system, of the same name)
<borodust> yeh, there's such project
<borodust> it's called cl-bodge
<borodust> actually, i lied
<phoe> ooh, so there *does* exist a cl-bodge
<aeth> OK, good, that can be what makes trivial-bodge so trivial, then. It can just depend on cl-bodge
<phoe> so we need a trivial-cl-bodge
<phoe> don't we
<Inline> import, shadowin import, export, shadowin export, reexport......
<aeth> phoe: what about cl-trivial-bodge? or trivial-bodge-cl?
<borodust> there _are_ rare bodge libs that are not used by cl-bodge
<aeth> and bodge-trivial-cl could use CFFI to talk to ECL from other CLs
<phoe> aeth: hu.dwim.cl-trivial-bodge.test
<borodust> stop giving me weird ideas
<aeth> borodust: libecl.so is just another .so file, so you might as well make bodge-trivial-cl
<borodust> bodgecl
<borodust> okay, i have a name for a new implementation
<borodust> patents pending, don't use
<borodust> Inline: that's what bodge-utilities do
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<borodust> kinda.. sorry?
<phoe> (:export ... #:f ...)
<phoe> respectful
<borodust> man of culture, if you must
<Inline> oyaaaa, this*
<Inline> heh
<Inline> much c++ in you ?
<Inline> hahaha
<phoe> okay, enough fooling around for me
<phoe> sleep time, night night
<borodust> Inline: you just murdered me
<borodust> and exposed
<borodust> tortured my soul
<Inline> i just saw you initialize-instance :after (this array-slice).....
<borodust> too much of that C××p language lately
<borodust> alright, i must follow phoe, he knows something
<borodust> good night!
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<Xach> borodust: noooo!
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<borodust> the hell
<borodust> Xach: actually, can you exclude :claw/tests?
<Xach> borodust: i can
<borodust> please
<Xach> i will!
<borodust> i know i know, i should have abandoned all those, ripped them out of quicklisp body, but.. i couldn't
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<borodust> im just another weak soul
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<Xach> you might get gc'd too soon
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<borodust> gotta get referenced, i guess
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<borodust> anyway, back to bed, in bodge i trust
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<Xach> ashes to ashes
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