<drl>
OK, I'm back. I deleted the old code in ~/.sbclrc. I also deleted ~/.cache/common-lisp/ and ~/.slime/fasl/. I closed and restarted emacs. But alexandria still can't load. The first line of the backtrace is: 0: (SB-IMPL::UPDATE-PACKAGE-WITH-VARIANCE #<PACKAGE "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0"> "ALEXANDRIA" ("ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0" "ALEXANDRIA-1") #S(SB-C:DEFINITION-SOURCE-LOCATION :NAMESTRING "/home/l/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/..
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<drl>
|3b|, the file ~/.swank.lisp does not exist, but /home/l/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.24/swank.lisp does exist.
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<drl>
|3b|, if sbcl is started like this: sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit, and then * (load "alexandria") I get "Couldn't load "alexandria": file does not exist."
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<Alfr>
drl, unless you have a lisp file called alexandria that's expected.
<Alfr>
And --no-userinit will also skip the bits that quicklisp set up for, not sure you want this, unless you've manually set up alexandria somewhere.
<drl>
Alfr, alexandria has been downloaded by quicklisp, but can't load. I just ran "sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit" because |3b| asked me to. Usually I use slime.
<drl>
(ql:quickload "alexandria") give this error message: ALEXANDRIA is a nickname for the package ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0
<drl>
[Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR]
<Alfr>
drl, w/ --no-sysinit --no-userinit; did you try loading the setup.lisp file in the quicklisp directory and then quickloading alexandria?
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<Alfr>
If that doesn't work, your sbcl or quicklisp install act strange.
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<drl>
Alfr, Is this the correct way to load it?: (load '/home/l/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp)
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<Alfr>
drl, I don't think symbols are pathname designators.
<no-defun-allowed>
Symbols are not pathname designators, no.
<drl>
Result: debugger invoked on a PACKAGE-DOES-NOT-EXIST in thread
<Alfr>
drl, and you did what exactly?
<drl>
That's the result of (load "/home/l/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
<Alfr>
In a sbcl started w/ the options --no-sysinit and --no-userinit?
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<drl>
Alfr, yes.
<Alfr>
Does (require 'asdf) work?
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<drl>
Alfr, * (require 'asdf)
<drl>
("ASDF" "asdf" "UIOP" "uiop")
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<drl>
If sbcl is started without those options, then (ql:quickload "alexandria") loads without error.
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<Alfr_>
So sbcl finds its contibs. Move your ~/.sbclrc somewhere safe and install quicklisp again with sbcl --no-sysinit .
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<Alfr_>
Failing that, _Xach may be more help than I can.
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<Alfr_>
*of
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<drl>
Alfr_, still no success. Thanks for trying to help. I'll see if Xach can help tomorrow.
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Alfr_>
Good morning beach.
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<SaganMan>
Morning beach
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<drl>
Alfr_, pve, |3b| , Xach, I went through all your advice again step by step. Alexandria now loads, and my program compiles. Thank you! Your help is very much appreciated.
<pve_>
drl: that's good to hear
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<edgar-rft>
nobody seems to realize that I was the biggest help by saying nothing :-)
<drl>
Well, I thank you also, edgar-rft!
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<xzax_[m]>
Hello
<beach>
Hello xzax_[m].
<beach>
xzax_[m]: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<xzax_[m]>
Yes i am
<xzax_[m]>
New to lisp also
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
What sources of Lisp-related information are you using, besides this channel?
<beach>
I see. That book is good if you have little or no experience with other languages. For those with experience, we often recommend PCL.
<beach>
minion: Please tell xzax_[m] about PCL.
<minion>
xzax_[m]: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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<beach>
xzax_[m]: And do you have your environment set up so that you can work correctly?
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<xzax_[m]>
beach: I see. Ill check that out
<xzax_[m]>
I use emacs
<xzax_[m]>
Specifically spacemacs
<xzax_[m]>
Ive installed slime and sbcl
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<beach>
Perfect!
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<xzax_[m]>
Thanks
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<beach>
xzax_[m]: Oh, I almost forgot: welcome to #lisp. And for truly elementary questions, there is also #clschool. This channel is not really meant for newbie questions, but such questions are tolerated. If they get too elementary, you may get redirected to #clschool, depending on how busy this channel is.
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<xzax_[m]>
beach: Thank you. I understand ill join clschool in addition
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<beach>
One more piece of information you may find useful: Those channels are fairly slow during the weekend, because many participants have families and they are busy doing other things. But there is almost always someone you can get help from, no matter your time zone.
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<xzax_[m]>
Ok
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<pve_>
Hi, if I define (defclass my-class () () (:metaclass my-metaclass)), then is it correct to say that my-class is an "instance" of my-metaclass?
<beach>
Indeed.
<pve_>
beach: ok great, thanks
<beach>
In fact, it is constructed by (make-instance 'my-metaclass...)
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<pve_>
oh right!
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<xzax_[m]>
beach: i forgot to mention. Im not really learning lisp for building apps more like for (intro to) compilers and stuff like that. Based on that would you change your book recomendation?
<beach>
xzax_[m]: Not really. Code like that is going to be a fairly heavy user of CLOS, so PCL is the better choice then.
<beach>
I am not sure "Gentle" even mentions classes and generic functions, but I haven't looked for a while.
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<xzax_[m]>
Ok. Thanks
<beach>
xzax_[m]: Since you are interested in compilers, you may want to know about SICL and Cleavir.
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<beach>
minion: Please tell xzax_[m] about SICL.
<minion>
xzax_[m]: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<beach>
minion: Please tell xzax_[m] about Cleavir.
<minion>
xzax_[m]: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
<beach>
xzax_[m]: A lot of compiler talk and general talk about implementing Common Lisp is conducted in #sicl these days.
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<xzax_[m]>
Interesting stuff
<beach>
Thanks!
<beach>
But maybe you want to use Common Lisp to write a compiler for a different language.
<beach>
That would be an excellent choice as well.
<beach>
It is hard for me to imagine writing something like GCC in C or LLVM in C++.
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<shka_>
heh, have you seen clang C++ AST's classes?
<beach>
Nope.
<shka_>
it is HUGE
<shka_>
i mean, number of classes
<beach>
I see.
<shka_>
it really demonstrates how complex C++ is
<shka_>
and how daunting was implementing it in C++
<beach>
Ah, yes, that I can understand.
<shka_>
without an interactivity
<beach>
So it's double suffering. Implementing C++, and using C++ to do it.
<shka_>
yup, an amazingly well used human effort ;-)
<shka_>
that is off topic though
<shka_>
anyway, people as saying that CL is a great language for making a compiler, I can't really tell if it is true because i don't make compilers, but if i would want to make compiler i would try CL first
<shka_>
because it is a really good language to do stuff you have no idea how to do
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<shka_>
in other words, CL makes a great learning tool
<beach>
xzax_[m]: I'm off for the day, to fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family and then spend time with her. I am sure the other participants can help you if you need it.
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<|3b|>
can roswell install sbcl from git, or just released versions?
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<aeth>
shka_: depends on what you want from the compiler... parsers are probably not going to be that mature, but once you parse things into s-expressions, you get a free intermediate format.
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<mfiano>
|3b|: ros install sbcl/git?
<|3b|>
hmm, tried but failed to install it?
<mfiano>
works fine for me
<|3b|>
ah, maybe no git on CI server's msys
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<mseddon>
Sad CI sever is sad.
<mseddon>
Without git, CI is meaningless
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<|3b|>
there is a git, but it is git for windows, which msys doesn't see or something
<|3b|>
getting a bash-like shell on github actions on windows is a bit of a mess currently :/
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<|3b|>
yeah, adding git made it work, but apparently i did that wrong so i should expect it to break randomly at some point (luckily i wasn't planning to actually use this longer than just running it now)
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<mseddon>
:/ may you glass cannon function
<mseddon>
Your*
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<TheInformaticist>
de Morgan says, "...in all logical reasoning, the negation is simply negation, and nothing more, never implying affirmation of the contrary," "...since the denial of one, and the affirmation of the other, are obviously equivalent propositions." Yet, in mathematical logic, it would appear that negation is exactly that, since, for instance, to say "not equals," affirms all cases that are false under the condition of "equals." So is
<TheInformaticist>
mathematical logic different from traditional logic on this point?
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<|3b|>
isn't that "law of excluded middle" or whatever it is? and what does it have to do with (common) lisp?
<|3b|>
(not NIL) is true, (not anything-else) is NIL
<|3b|>
and numbers negate as expected
<TheInformaticist>
<|3b|>: Everything is about everything.
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<TheInformaticist>
He is not tall.
<TheInformaticist>
He is very tall.
<aeth>
|3b|: most numbers negate as expected. -0.0f0 is counterintuitive unless you're used to floating point
* |3b|
didn't say whose expectations :)
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<aeth>
in case anyone is wondering you can get -0 that easily, e.g. (- 0.0d0) => -0.0d0
<aeth>
I wasn't sure if 0 was somehow special cased
<aeth>
= and ZEROP should, of course, handle things as expected
<|3b|>
(pretty sure -0.0 is optional in spec, but probably exists in most current implementations)
<mfiano>
Well ieee754 is optional so :)
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<TheInformaticist>
The problem is, that any system that is consistent, will be incomplete, and any system that is complete, will be inconsistent.
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* |3b|
doesn't find that to be a problem
<|3b|>
(mostly due to not caring about those properties)
<mfiano>
incomplete to some, inconsistent to all
<White_Flame>
programming is about internally complete models, not externally complete models
<White_Flame>
(and even internally complete is often not reached)
<White_Flame>
simply to get things working
<|3b|>
or about random hacks because we need to ship last week :(
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<aeth>
TheInformaticist: it's only really a problem for type systems
<aeth>
CL's escape hatch here is to have SATISFIES types which are inefficient and probably not checkable at compile time
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<TheInformaticist>
<aeth>: I see. I only began studying Common Lisp yesterday, though I have studied other Lisps.
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<sveit>
hi. maybe I should ask in #sbcl, but i have been trying to compile SBCL on non-rooted Android (through an app called Termux if anyone has experience). By disabling threads, and making some other small modifications to various lisp files to avoid conflicts between "linux" and "android" parts of the build, it gets somewhat far, but fails because the SBCL binary has "text relocations", which are not supported on Android. Do people know how
<sveit>
to fix/get around this? Thanks@
<sveit>
if anyone has experience with cross-compilation/compilation using the NDK or otherwise, or any other method to get a binary running on bare Android, I'd be very interested as well. I do have SBCL running under a "fake" chroot (called proot), but this is a significantly slower environment.
<sveit>
i understand it's thankless, but i wish the documentation for the SBCL build would be a bit better. for example grepping through the source i see various mysterious references to Android/NDK, so I think someone must have already figured it out
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