<markasoftware>
which lisp implementations tend to have less memory usage?
<Inline>
lol
<Inline>
you probably want something like ecl or clisp maybe
<aeth>
Interpreters tend to use less memory, but most people don't really prioritize that over performance these days.
<aeth>
CLISP is interpreted; ECL can be.
<Inline>
if you mean space
<White_Flame>
do the different GC strategies offer any appreciable difference in RAM usage?
<White_Flame>
I would expect not really
<aeth>
Inline: When you bring the whole compiler with you in the runtime environment, there is a very real space vs. speed tradeoff.
<aeth>
e.g. SBCL is roughly twice as fast as CCL and about half the footprint (at the start, before loading in the data) of SBCL.
<aeth>
But at some point, SBCL will win because SBCL's generated asm is about half the size, at least in DISASSEMBLE
<White_Flame>
markasoftware: if your user-created heap objects dominate size, you'll probably not find that much difference between them, and if so the differences would depend on tye specific types used
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<aeth>
s/and about half/and CCL is about half/
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<markasoftware>
i actually may have been wasting more memory in my program than I thought
<markasoftware>
but thanks anyways, clisp is definitely somewhat lighter on the memory
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<White_Flame>
aeth: does CCL include any more facilities than SBCL does?
<aeth>
White_Flame: iirc, CCL has some OS X and Objective-C integration because it started as a Mac-first CL
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<aeth>
now, if those aren't included in builds outside of OS X, that might contribute to its lower memory footprint relative to SBCL on start.
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<ldbeth>
good morning everyong!
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<no-defun-allowed>
Hello ldbeth
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<dead10cc>
hi
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<beach>
Hello dead10cc.
<beach>
dead10cc: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<dead10cc>
I've been here a while back under a different nick
<phantomics>
morning beach
<dead10cc>
so yes :)
<beach>
Oh, I see.
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<moon-child>
hey all
<beach>
Hello moon-child.
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<markasoftware>
how do you change the expiration of the cookies created for a hunchentoot session? There's a *session-max-time* variable, but that controls the validity of the sessions in the internal database; the cookies sent to the browser still have single-session expiration
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<markasoftware>
defining a method on session-created that replaces the default session cookie seems to work
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<pve>
Hi, is there a way in CL to find out the size of a machine word?
<flip214>
When I have a class used as a mixin, can I have two instances of that in another class instance with different slot names?
<aeth>
pve: *features* with trivial-features loaded to ensure :32-bit or :64-bit is there
<beach>
flip214: I am confused about your question. You don't have instances of a class in another class.
<pve>
On my machine, most-positive-fixnum seems to be 2^62. How reliably could I deduce from that that the word size is 64 bits?
<beach>
flip214: And the slot name is intrinsic to the class, so why would you want to have the same mixin with two different slot names?
<beach>
pve: It could be more, like 128.
<pve>
hmm
<beach>
pve: But it is unlikely to be less.
<aeth>
pve: you could assume > 32 is 64-bit, and you'd be right for modern architectures, as long as new ones aren't added as beach said
<aeth>
pve: but trivial-features answers precisely
<aeth>
and one of your dependencies probably already loads it
<pve>
yeah, just curious..
<aeth>
but if you just want "more than 32 bits" then that's probably what you should check
<aeth>
(although, who knows, maybe there's some implementation that breaks that assumption)
<aeth>
(and close to 32 bits, like, say, 36 bits, might still have a fixnum size <= 32)
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<flip214>
beach: I've got a (DEFCLASS HOST-MIXIN () ) that I'm using in a few other classes. Now, for a TCP connection, I need to store two hosts - a src and a dest. Can I reuse that mixin class or do I need to duplicate the slots (and methods) with different names? I guess the latter, but I wanted to ask
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<beach>
I think you need to duplicate.
<flip214>
thanks!
<beach>
But, you probably should not use inheritance for that. You should just have two instances of a class.
<beach>
I forget what they call that in traditional object orientation.
<beach>
Composition?
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<beach>
flip214: Did you see that?
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<flip214>
beach: yes, I did.
<flip214>
"is a" versus "has a", yeah.
<flip214>
thing is, I might be dealing with a few millions of them at once, so the additional per-instance overhead for two child objects would become prohibitive - but as I'm going to deduplicate them anyway, it should work out.
<flip214>
sorry, storage is a different issue... just wanted to know whether I can save on source LOC (and complexity) by reusing
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<eta>
is there a way to do the equivalent of POSIX's poll() function on multiple streams in SBCL? (or portably)
<eta>
(or even, a way to get the raw file descriptors and call poll() on those)
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<jmercouris>
(ql:system-list) for a specific dist?
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* eta
was more wondering whether such functionality was already in SB-EXT or similar
<no-defun-allowed>
I tried (apropos "POLL") and there was something, but the poll interface is beyond me. Some stuff to do with POLL in SB-UNIX though.
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<scymtym>
eta: you could do something like (sb-sys:add-fd-handler (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd STREAM) :input (lambda (fd) …)) but i'm not sure that is intended for user code. SB-SYS:SERVE-EVENT is the event loop driver for that
<eta>
scymtym, oh, sure, that sounds more reasonable
<eta>
I'm assuming that gets passed down to the OS level as an appropriate timeout
<eta>
(on the read syscall or whatever I/O is happening)
<scymtym>
yes, and deadlines also handle restarted OS operations and time that passes between OS level operations
<scymtym>
and deadlines compose in a sensible way, if i remember correctly
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<daphnis>
how come #'compile-file seems to return 3 values, first filename and then 2 nils? i thought a function could only return one value?
<jackdaniel>
in common lisp functions may return multiple values
<jackdaniel>
there are operators which act on it
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<jackdaniel>
so you don't have to create a structure to handle multiple values (i.e if you want to concieve two distinct invormation pieces)
<jackdaniel>
(values 1 2 3) ; <- returns three values
<scymtym>
daphnis: common lisp functions can return zero, one or more values (for example FLOOR returns the quotient and the remainder). COMPILE-FILE indicates nuances of compilation success using the second and third value
<jackdaniel>
(multiple-value-bind (a b c) (my-function) (+ a b c+) ; <- binds a b c
<jackdaniel>
(and adds results)
<daphnis>
interesting. thanks
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<jackdaniel>
s/conceive/convey/
<thijso>
I must be doing something wrong, but not sure what... If I try to (ql:quickload :alexandria) in sbcl (in emacs slime), I get the error: "ALEXANDRIA is a nickname for the package ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV" [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR]
<thijso>
Searching in google doesn't really give me any relevant results... Anyone know what I should do to fix this?
<jackdaniel>
do you type this form in a fresh cl image?
<jackdaniel>
or you have something loaded already?
<eta>
also this is probably better suited for #sbcl maybe (if so, I'll go ask in there), but is accessing a slot of a class threadsafe?
<jackdaniel>
if you have one thread, then yes :) otherwise no
<eta>
...interesting, given I have "production" code that assumes it is and it hasn't fallen over yet >_>
<eta>
because I stash a lock in one of the slots and use that to synchronize access to the rest of the class
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<eta>
jackdaniel, how about if the slot value never gets changed?
<jackdaniel>
you need to define what do you mean by thread-safety
<jackdaniel>
two concurrent threads may read from the same memory without issues
<eta>
well in this case, I'm storing a lock in a slot of a class
<jackdaniel>
problems start when the content of memory changes and you do different things based on the content
<eta>
and locking it from multiple threads, and then accessing other slots within the critical section
<eta>
so that should be fine, right?
<jackdaniel>
if it is a lock which just sits there, then all threads simply read it, and locking is a thread-safe operation (they would have no use if it weren't)
<eta>
because presumably all the slot stores is a pointer to the lock, which never moves
<eta>
yeah
<eta>
cool, thanks
<jackdaniel>
sure
<eta>
but if you're modifying slot values, then that needs a lock to synchronize the loads / stores
<eta>
because otherwise you have a data race, right?
<eta>
(unless you use sb-ext:atomic-incf and friends)
<beach>
joel135: I really recommend that you give a short summary of what to expect when the link is clicked on.
<beach>
joel135: I never click on links without it, because that is typical troll behavior to post a link to something unrelated, for whatever reason I don't know, increase traffic perhaps.
<joel135>
It is my IRC client's own pastebin.
<joel135>
I posted an emacs lisp session.
<jmercouris>
this channel is not about Elisp, sorry
<beach>
So, Emacs Lisp is off topic here.
<joel135>
Really?
<beach>
Yes, the subject says so.
<beach>
it is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<joel135>
Is my code not valid lisp code?
<Josh_2>
yes it is
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<beach>
joel135: "lisp" or "Lisp" is not a term with a widely agreed-upon definition. Now Common Lisp is such a term, and that is the topic of this channel.
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<dlowe>
you might try ##lisp for the wider family of languages
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<pve>
joel135: it's difficult to see why your snippet is cool if you give zero explanation, at least I was left scratching my head because the cool part wasn't immediately obvious
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<joel135>
ok
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<joel135>
I will start any new general lisp discussion in ##lisp then.
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<joel135>
As for my snippet, the cool thing is that the nested , is matched to the ` that I wanted it to match, when there were several ``.
<ldb>
three comma programmer
<ldb>
great!
* joel135
googles
<ldb>
real C programmer uses three stars, real lisp programmer uses three commas
<joel135>
I see
<joel135>
(& <-> `) and (* <-> ,) but also (* <-> apply)
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<joel135>
err I meant (* <-> eval)
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<dbotton_m2>
Hello, is there a way to define this function so that the compiler at compile time would recognize the lack of a parameter or local variable
<dbotton_m2>
(defun test (&key (b 20) (c 21)) (format t "a=~A b=~A c=~A~%" a b c))
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<dbotton_m2>
I am teaching myself lisp currently but come from the Ada-verse
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<Bike>
you mean, so that you get a warning about 'a' being undefined?
<dbotton_m2>
Yes
<dbotton_m2>
In Ada the compiler would pull a gun on you for that
<Bike>
i would expect you to get that warning without any special action on your part.
<Bike>
what implementation/environment are you using?
<Bike>
that said, lisp is going to be a lot less strict than ada in general
<dbotton_m2>
Lisp on an iPad
<dbotton_m2>
Which is elc i think
<dbotton_m2>
Ecl
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<Bike>
i haven't used ecl but i'm surprised there's no warning. maybe it only comes up if you use compile-file rather than repl entry.
<dbotton_m2>
My idea is too see how strict I can get things
<dbotton_m2>
Ok, i can give that a try
<Bike>
the ipad version could also be weird, i don't know.
<dbotton_m2>
No difference, I’ll try later at computer
<dbotton_m2>
The iPad version is very nice. I was able to do my tests on concurrency on it use QT
<dbotton_m2>
I was surprised, never thought something as full would be allowed through process
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<dbotton_m2>
Do you think there would be a way to setup a macro to use that could detect if its parameter is with in scope? (Sorry for ignorance of terms or capabilities)
<dbotton_m2>
(Is Valid a)
<dbotton_m2>
Sort of think
<dbotton_m2>
So if forced programmer discipline to use could help to avoid this sort of being left to runtime
<Bike>
I would expect an implementation to warn on an unknown variable on its own initiative. The fact that you're not seeing that is weird.
<dbotton_m2>
Well a could be global and maybe a REPL issue as you point out
<Bike>
Usually if you put that in a file and compiled it (with say SLIME) the compilation would fail and an error would pop up.
<Bike>
If a is global then the code isn't actually problematic, so naturally there would be no notice.
<dbotton_m2>
Do lisp macros have that sort of scope data available to them?
<Bike>
There is no standard way to determine what variables are bound in a macroexpansion environment.
<dbotton_m2>
I’ll be able to check soon on a pc let you know
<Bike>
Some implementations export ways to find out as an extension, but they're infrequently used
<Bike>
Generally with what you're talking about the way to go would be to improve the implementation, not to implement macros or something yourself to work aorund its faults
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<dbotton_m2>
Using sbcl it through up a warning
<dbotton_m2>
I agree and certainly the idea. I am just first trying (while learning) to see how far the language itself gets me
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<White_Flame>
dbotton: the local variables in scope would be part of the &environment parameter to the macro
<White_Flame>
but the contents of it are implementation-specific, and may or may not contain anything
<White_Flame>
there might be a portability library for accessing information from it, though
<mfiano>
there's a few, with Bike's being one of them
<White_Flame>
when you compile (defun foo () a), for instance, it would compile in an access to the assumed global/special variable A
<White_Flame>
you do not need to declare it beforehand, and it might be defined later on
<White_Flame>
so it's not an error condition to refer to variables that way
<White_Flame>
although certainly implementations are free to give style warnings and such recommending you do it cleaner
<White_Flame>
however, when it comes to your macro situation, it's probably better to leave the error checking to the lisp compiler, instead of trying to poke into everything yourself, unless there's really good cause
<Bike>
usually implementations issue a full warning (meaning compilation fails) for an undefined variable, since while defining variables later might work, it's not defined to work
<Bike>
unlike with undefined functions
<White_Flame>
huh
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